Opinions on the "twin studies" of gender identity?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from self.GCdebatesQT

I had someone I was discussing things with a while ago bring these studies up to try to "prove" gender identity is real and I'll admit while I don't think it's conclusive it is interesting.

Compelling data now suggest that gender identity is not simply a psychosexual construct, but that it is influenced by biology, environmental, and cultural factors," explained Dr. Rosenthal, In a meta-analysis of twin studies, nearly 40% of identical twins were concordant for gender dysphoria in comparison with none of the non-identical twins.1 "That is very striking evidence. The non-identical twins who, just like the kids who are identical twins, grew up with the same parents in the same households. The only difference, obviously, is that the identical twins essentially share the same DNA," Dr. Rosenthal said.

https://www.endocrineweb.com/professional/meetings/transgender-research-role-biology-gender-identity-development

Interestingly enough they also seem to reject the "gendered brain" hypothesis so it is not totally anti-GC. I do have some questions about It like how they determine who has dysphoria.

QT/pro-trans: Would you say this is the best "empirical" evidence for gender identity being a concrete thing? If not what should we look at?

GC:Is there an easy way for us to refute this or is it somehow compatible with GC ideas?

Feel free to make whatever other comments you want as well...

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[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Personally, I don’t really care how real people’s gender identities are. A biological cause for sex dysphoria will never erase the rights of women. It’s probably worth exploring for those who suffer it and to find new treatments, but it doesn’t make them anything more than an odd pathology.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree but if proven true it would give some credence to their narrative about being "born this way" and perhaps certain special considerations for transsexuals (not all trans umbrella people though). But no, it would certainly not mean males are female or those protections could come at the expense of women's rights.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I’m all for special considerations like discrimination protection, specialist medicine, etc especially if there’s a legit known pathology that can be identified in the people receiving them.

Even if it turns out some people are born that way, we can all still see toxic subculture that has formed around sex dysphoria. The disorder is quite likely real but the culture around it is still a misogynistic swamp.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even if it turns out some people are born that way, we can all still see toxic subculture that has formed around sex dysphoria. The disorder is quite likely real but the culture around it is still a misogynistic swamp.

Yes, this 100%

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Because to be trans now you need only declare that - majority of new trans people aren't dysphoric even in slightest. Even their own study showed that over half of transwomen are not even planning to have any surgeries or full transition. Some are just crossdressing without hormones. And all of them are allowed in female spaces.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nobody but women and girls should ever be in those spaces.

Imo an actual pathology would be excellent if it could weed out the purely cultural transgender people and remove them from the needs and considerations for actual transsexuals.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I honestly have reached a point where I don’t give a fuck about gender identity or any of the ideology. Women are female. Period. Whatever makes transwomen need to transition is irrelevant to females and still has literally nothing to do with us. If they can figure out the root of gender dysphoria that’s great, but it changes nothing for me. Transwomen are men and will never be women, whether gender identity is real or not.

That being said, I feel like there’s too many other mental health concerns present in most trans people that aren’t being talked about. There’s also a lot of history of sexual trauma or childhood trauma of some sort, even homophobia (internal and or external) can play a part (obligatory not all trans people). It’s sad and shitty to me that this is ignored or dismissed so often. I honestly feel like most trans people have a host of other mental health issues, regardless of any possible scientific explanation for gender identity.

I think sex/gender dysphoria is real. I think gender identity is a bullshit, pseudo explanation to avoid acknowledging that it’s a mental condition.

My rebuttal is simply that no matter what, sex is not mental. Women are of the female sex. It’s not complicated, just because some men want it to be.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah I understand your frustration and agree with you. Unfortunately I don't think it's going away anytime soon so I guess I was happy that they at least seem to be moving away from the horribly sexist gendered brain crap. But yes, maintaining the physical reality of sex is the most important thing right now and a battle we're really losing here badly.

I think what you said about the other conditions trans people seem to display is interesting, in addition, I've heard they display a lot of mental and personality disorders that don't really get looked at because validation and affirmation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like it’s very obvious that at the very least, narcissism is rampant in the trans community, even amongst “non binary” people.

I just think there’s way too many ways for someone to identify as trans and way too many trans people that disagree with each other. There’s still trans people who say you don’t even need to have dysphoria and even some who say gender identity isn’t a thing. So I guess for me, it would be wonderful if somehow we could understand what causes sex/gender dysphoria- like- the actual mental disconnect and the extreme aversion/discomfort with one’s body, but I still can’t take the idea of gender identity seriously. To me, if someone’s brain is more like that of the opposite sex, I don’t get where any discomfort or need to change anything about themselves comes? Wouldn’t they just have a slightly different brain from most people of their sex? My female brain doesn’t tell me to be feminine or submissive, or to like pink and twirly dresses. the article still doesn’t make any of the things trans people say about their sense of identity make sense for me.

[–]emptiedriver 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

so over 60% of identical twins do not have the same gender? That seems to be strong evidence against it being "real" to me...

The most common "GC" theory I have heard is that there are two branches of being trans, at least for men - homosexual or autogynophile. Those could have genetic roots without it having any impact on the GC attitude, which is simply that it doesn't make them women. It can still make them trans women and they can still be welcomed into women's circles in various social settings that want to share space, but in political matters, physical matters, and simply on a factual level, it doesn't change biology.

They are born with male bodies, and then it makes some difference whether they are continuing to live with male bodies or getting medical changes (maybe we need a 3rd category here), but psychological feelings are not what the categories are referring to. Man and woman are physical sets.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said. I believe what you have described was the "old attitude" many women had to transsexuals and perhaps some kind of coexistence like this would be possible against but I am frustrated they don't define "dysphoria" at all in the study. Does it include andy discomfort with gender roles? Does it include wanting to crossdress or feeling one is the opposite sex for sexual reasons? I think it would need to be narrowed to strict discomfort with one's physical anatomy to make sense

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're making two assumptions: dysphoria proves MtF transgenderism & MtF transgenderism proves that trans-womxyn are women.

Dysphoria isn't an identity. "Cis" people can have dysphoria too.

If we discovered conclusively that being gay was in people's DNA, would that somehow prove that gay men are women? No, because that is a non-sequitur.

Of course trans people exist. They exist the world over, as well as throughout history. Every culture up until now has recognised trans-womxyn as either men, or third gender. What is still lacking is evidence for the controversial, unsupported & frankly completely unnecessary claim that trans-womxyn are women.

Gender identity via gendered socialisation is the only real gender identity. It's actually measurable, consequential, definable. Trans-womxyn's socialised gender identity is also male, hence their gendered behavioural patterns being sex-congruent.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I will never believe that transwomen are women because women are female and males can't become female. Some kind of biological gender identity would not change that at least in my eyes. What I think is at issue with these studies is the cause of actual dysphoria. If there is some kind of biological cause to it then we can't just dismiss transwomen as men who try to "act like women". I don't believe "cis" and "trans" as they are modernly used are valid categories actually, because as you said so-called "cis" people can experience dysphoria and extreme discomfort with the gender roles we are assigned and even perhaps physical discomfort resulting from this so a "trans" person is just someone who's dysphoria is severe enough they choose to act on it in some extremely noticeable way (other than just cross-dressing or something). It's just interesting if there is a biological component to this rather than being completely social and would impact how transsexuals probably should be viewed.

I also have questions about how this relates to gender socialization. Can we still hope to completely change how men and women are socialized and make a more equal and genderless society if parts of it are hard wired? I think so but it definitely needs more study.

[–]FlanJam 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The article seems to mainly be talking about dysphoria, which I don't take issue with. If by "gender identity" they just mean "people with dysphoria" then sure I can work with that.

My issue with gender identity is when people assert the existence of a man/woman "soul" that makes you a man/woman. Or that "cis" people can "feel" their man-ness/woman-ness. That to me is really weird and presumptive.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My issue with gender identity is when people assert the existence of a man/woman "soul" that makes you a man/woman. Or that "cis" people can "feel" their man-ness/woman-ness. That to me is really weird and presumptive.

Yes. Same here.

[–]YoutiaoLover 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only difference, obviously, is that the identical twins essentially share the same DNA.

I disagree with this statement. That's not the only difference.

Socially, identical and fraternal twins are treated differently. Identical twins often treated like an individual in two bodies from the moment they were born. They're treated like a set. Parents buy them same clothes, same toys, give them same haircuts, people often think their personalities are similar even though some are polar opposites.

My younger brothers are identical twins, I'm friends with a bunch of pair of twins--be it identical and fraternal, and of both sexes. I've seen "I don't get to date twin A, I'm fine with dating twin B lol" mentality. People who have problem with A tend to treat B like shit even though B don't know anything. Even as adults, identical twins I know still say things like, "Being twins sucks," "I wish I and my twin brother/sister don't look alike." Some even go to the extent of adopting fashion style they don't like in order to look different from their twin.

Fraternal twins, while they still get typical twins treatments (especially same sex twins), are seen as individuals more than identical twins. It's not unusual for them to be treated like regular siblings. I'm close friends with a pair of fraternal twins. 90% of the time, people (including their own parents!) forget that they're twins at all.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It seems sort of like homosexuality twin studies. I know those are even more coordinated for identical twins. I don’t necessarily believe we are born trans, but I think some of us are born in some way that makes that much more likely. I know with young gender dysphoric males there are a whole bunch of other things including sexual orientation it correlates with so something has to be happening genetically or developmentally I feel like. I don’t know about later onset though because those seem way less understandable that way.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This makes sense, yes.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Are you, and perhaps Dr Rosenthal, conflating or confusing gender dysphoria with gender identity? The article you linked about the study talks a lot about gender identity but the only data talking about twins is about gender dysphoria.

On the whole this "meta study" done by Dr Rosenthal seems questionable immediately because the studies Dr Rosenthal is fishing through are not related. They are not studying the same things and thus are using different methods and criteria and asking very different questions. Rosenthal seems to have selected studies to fit a poorly formed idea. Why do I say it is a poorly formed idea? The conclusion Rosenthal arrives at seems to be that gender identity (not seemingly even a topic of at least one of the studies) is "influenced by biology, environmental, and cultural factors". Wow, that's really nailing it down, isn't it? No study is needed to draw that conclusion. In any event, if you have gender dysphoria, it is "influenced" by biology because it is biology that your dysphoria is dysphoric about.

The argument is not about people having a gender identity, because that phrase in and of itself means nothing more than it means to know who you are or your eye color or your height and weight and any other identifying characteristics used to identify people. I know my sex, some people call that knowing my gender and some people then conclude I have a gender identity.

The question, really it is not yet a real question but a desperate hope of some, is if that identity is innate. If it is environmentally influenced or culturally influenced, then it is not innate. If it is a product of language to some extent, then it is not innate. If it is taught to us early on in our development through unspoken context cues then it is not innate. If it doesn't go beyond knowing because that is the reality of our sex, knowledge of one's sex, then where is innate different from common sense? How is "depth" of this innate identity claimed by some and denied by others, to where people can say I know I am this gender in spite of what others observe about one's biology, measured? Is it measured in stubbornness units, or denial of reality units? What differentiates it from just being stubbornly wrong or posturing? It seems to just come down to claims made and non-studies like this one are fishing for something that isn't even there when they say it is.

Ultimately still, "gender identity" is an umbrella term for identity categories in that no one actually even claims to have "gender identity" but that they are somehow a man or woman or something that gender identity is term used for that set of claims. Gender identity then is a term made up to describe a thing that might not exist beyond perhaps being the sets of people who know their sex or who claim something innate about that or in contradiction to that. What is a man or woman in this sense, and why does this supposedly innate and internal thing mimics the vocabulary of sex identification? We don't pretend blood types are correlated to sex, how is this innate thing meant to correlate and usurp sex? It sounds like a toxic mimic (google it). It sounds like the rationalization of men being a toxic mimic of women either to just creep on them or to avoid the pressures they perceive as being placed on them by manhood, or it sounds like a rationalization used by women trying to avoid the realities of being a woman in societies that treat women like objects or property. As a recent report about a rape victim described, the victim could not understand why her roomate raped her since she repeatedly said I identify as a man. She did not escape sex based oppression through gender.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Interesting comment. Gender identity has always seemed completely ineffable to me. Like I've heard them try to explain it if you were switched into the other sexed body you'd be horrified but I don't think I would (any more than finding myself in any completely different body suddenly) I don't feel this connection to maleness and most GC women I've talked to don't seem to have a corresponding connection to femaleness.

It seems it mainly comes up through dysphoria which is much more concrete. I have felt strong discomfort at being expected to perform masculine gender roles. I can certainly empathize with the trans person in the old sub who told me their physical dysphoria was so bad that seeing their sexed anatomy made them want to claw their skin off. So I would guess the doctor is trying to prove the identity exists in some people by proving it causes dysphoria (although what that is can vary a lot and is not clearly defined in what I read of the study). I am sure there is a social element to dysphoria and it is connected to gender roles which would mean that if the kind of hypothesis this paper seems to present is true that gender identity would be too. I really believe that lessening the importance of gender roles in society would also cut down on the number of dysphoric people if not totally eliminate it.

As a recent report about a rape victim described, the victim could not understand why her roomate raped her since she repeatedly said I identify as a man. She did not escape sex based oppression through gender.

Wow, this is really heartbreaking and really illustrates what I think most of us, even trans people, know, that sex-based oppression is what is materially real.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think we as a society have not read own own memes in that well over a decade ago I used to see articles and pictures talking about the supposed warning signs of impending fascism (yes, I'm going there, kinda) which always included increasingly rigid sex stereotypes or gender roles, or hyper-masculinity. Its like people read that but didn't realize what it meant. Camille Paglia talks about it often. https://youtu.be/I8BRdwgPChQ?t=174 The point is not just that people are free to do what they want, which is obviously true, but what motivates it? How is it that males or females feel discomfort with what is basic biological reality?

That is part of why I don't really think talking about "transgenderism" like it is one thing, but a mix of: kids trying to escape the varying levels of hormones and the behaviors they create, kids freaked out by the changes their bodies are undergoing relative to those around them, adults trying to escape boredom or seeking attention or escape responsibility, liars, and a range of mental illnesses of which some are more dangerous to society than others. I think the term "transgender" is used to hide some of these groups, the liars and the dangerous, behind others. I avoid using it. I find the phrases "men in dresses" to cover most of the more problematic ones, and "girls trying to escape sexism" to cover the more tragic ones.

I really blame the education system, which does not educate at all but trains conformity and creates a sort of set of concentric circles of insiders who are paid attention to and celebrated for conformity (and not for really any great intellectual courage or skill), those with that courage who want to get in, those who are happy to go along to get along, and the rebels and outcasts. We not taught to build communities but to compete for better grades and better jobs. We are taught to escape our dead-end town if we're born in one, to reject ourselves and our culture and our family and neighbors, in favor of empty promises. We're not taught to serve each other with what we have, but to serve our superiors with what they value in us. We're not taught to be the best men and women we can be because that is not valued by anyone but us, if we're lucky enough to learn to value it.

That women are not valued I think is a reflection is that the ruling class no long needs to reproduce such a large labor pool and we, the surplus labor pool, pose more of a risk to them through rebellion than they care to tolerate. So, various ways of stunting a generation's reproductive capacity will solve a lot of problems for them. I read recently that the average women must produce 2.1 kids for society, ie the surplus labor pool, to reproduce itself. Replacing women with men in dresses, as they do in Iran but for homophobic reasons, and replacing teenage girls with bearded little petite "dudes" running around dressed like surprisingly well-groomed lumberjacks (the "Surprisingly Curvaceous Pirate" character from the Pirate animated movie from a few years ago comes to mind), each ruining their own reproductive capacity, for one generation will put a dent in our population the builder of the Georgia Guidestones would salivate over.

As for the tragic rape I talked about, I wish trans people acknowledged material reality and did acknowledge sex is real and woman is the term of a type of body a person has. Instead I see bullshit like 'sex is a social construct', and no acknowledgement that "misgendering" is just correctly stating one's sex.

I wish to let you have the last word here if you choose. I see you are replying to like everyone who responds and that is very cool, but it is also very taxing and I do not wish to tax you further.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I find the phrases "men in dresses" to cover most of the more problematic ones,

I don't like the implication that men in dresses are doing something concerning.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are intentionally misreading it then. When I have to refer to problematic ones doing problematic things, like sexual assaults or beating up old women, I don't need to use any neologisms because I can usually use the phrase "men in dresses". That does not say nor imply that all men in dresses are causing trouble. I have known a few men who wear dresses and skirts and all sorts of gender non-conforming clothes who have not been anything other than fine people. I don't like that you're reading into my statement something that is not there, but have fun with it.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think gender roles are biological but I think how we self socialize might have biological factors. I think gender non-conforming homosexuals might have been born with a predisposition toward gender non-conformity. I also believe autogynephilic males and autoandrophilic females might be have born with a predisposition toward autogynephila/autoandrophilia. As both gender non-conforming homosexuals and those with autogynephila/autoandrophilia are overrepresented among those who transition then it can technically be said some people are born with factors that increases their likelihood to transition.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm curious what role you think autogynephilia may serve evolutionarily? HSTS gay men being more GNC/feminine naturally makes sense and I guess the same for butch lesbians who end up transitioning.

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm curious what role you think autogynephilia may serve evolutionarily?

I don't think it has to serve a role evolutionarily for someone to be born with a predisposition for it just as there are there are mental illnesses that are genetic. I am homosexual and I am uncertain if homosexuality serves a role evolutionary too. I think some are born with a predisposition toward autogynephilia/autoandrophilia as some had their autogynephilia/autoandrophilia starting very early.

I think autogynephilia/autoandrophilia is a form of a partially inverted sexual orientation, making them want to be what they love. That would make sense of those with a prepuberty onset of autogynephilia/autoandrophilia, it wouldn't be purely sexual, it would have emotional aspects too. It would parallel to how most people with a sexual orientation don't only experience sexual attractions, most have romantic attractions too, and the onset of these attractions can precede puberty.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If we view transsexuality as an "extreme" form of homosexuality, it makes sense. Don't studies also reveal that half of identical twins share the same sexual orientation?