Both: what is the source/origin of the claim "trans-womxyn are women"? The DSM-5/icd-11 don't make the claim, I can't find it anywhere within sociology or psychology, not even within queer theory. Is it just a hashtag?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But where is this elusive definition you keep eluding to? The "social component" of 'man' is called masculinity, or a masculine gender role. You keep saying "definitional" while stressing connotation. The connotation of the word 'man' is: one with a masculine identity. The denotation of 'man' is adult, human & male – that's what 'man' is "definitionally".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Man implies behavior in common use. When it comes to language common use is more important that a dictionary definition because common use is what it’s actually communicating. Saying “be a man” doesn’t communicate “ be an adult human male” it’s a command to adopt a set of behavior patterns.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

We've been over this. You're talking about connotation again. Denotation > connotation.

Femboys manage just fine being exactly like trans-womxyn, except in the way they identify. Stereotypes aren't definitions. Men don't stop being men by virtue of not adhering to the stereotypical masculine role of a normative man.

Men who are identical to trans-womxyn in every substantial way are men, so what is is about trans-womxyn that makes them "not men"?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am very "feminine" looking gay man, with very "feminine" facial features. And during hot weather I prefer wearing dress-like cloths like roman toga. However, very often I can't, as there is stigma about feminine men (mostly come from homophobia, as society in place where I live is not healed from homophobia being outlawed previously) and such clothing.

And I am a man.

Better question was one here previously - when transwoman is coming to Oceania or some Indian places, where men are wearing dresses and make-up, but women are not allowed to, or allowed but very limitedly, - then what? Transwoman will look exactly as men there, and "feminine" traits and looks of transwoman will be considered as "masculine" ones in that place. Will transwoman stop being woman and became a man there? And how to spot difference? I think this question was never answered, but repeated few times by person asking it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You’re just ignoring physical transition here. Femboys aren’t just the same except identity.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You haven't visited r/femboys then. There are those who medically transition to a point (normally to the same point that most trans-womxyn do too). There is even some overlap, with members of that sub regularly coming out as trans.

In the cases of femboys & trans-womxyn who identify as men, what's the difference between them & trans-womxyn who identify as women? Ideology is the only difference (& theirs is not the view that is ideological, it's biological & sociological fact).

So what is it about trans-womxyn that makes them "not men"?

EDIT: I meant r/feminineboys, r/femboys is just porn.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Their bodies, their identities, the way the Interact with the world and are acted on in the world. Literally everything about them.

As I’ve said many times. Argue we are some third category if you care to but we are not men.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But "literally everything about them" is shared by people that even you regard as men, including some trans-womxyn, like Debbie Hayton. There is no reason to distinguish between trans-womxyn who you disagree with from trans-womxyn who share your ideology.

When are you going to argue that trans-womxyn you disagree with are a third category rather than men? If a trans-woman's sex is not a third category, then what on earth would be the justification be to place them in a third category?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But "literally everything about them" is shared by people that even you regard as men, including some trans-womxyn, like Debbie Hayton. There is no reason to distinguish between trans-womxyn who you disagree with from trans-womxyn who share your ideology.

Dysphoria. If you call yourself a man you can’t be dysphoric. So you aren’t trans.

I’m open to the possibility of third category if accompanied with massive social change. But trans women who disagree with me are either trans or not. Are they disphoric or not? I’m not arguing for a third category.

If a trans-woman's sex is not a third category, then what on earth would be the justification be to place them in a third category?

I don’t understand what you are asking here.