QT: Why is bigoted/violence to misgender someone, but mandatory to missex them?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (108 children)

Yeah I’m done. You’re not going to address anything I say. You just keep saying things aren’t real.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (107 children)

I mean what I’m saying is literally true, perception of color categories is societally constructed which is why some cultures consider blue and green to be the same color

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (106 children)

So if I said something is the same color of an orange (the fruit), nobody would know what I meant? And even if some cultures call blue and green the same color, wouldn’t the handy dandy spectrum you brought up be a pretty easy way to clarify what color someone is referring to, regardless of what any particular culture believes? Orange would still be in the spectrum, regardless of what you call it.

This doesn’t even address the questions about your sex spectrum. Nice way of trying to avoid that, when that’s really what we’re focused on.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (105 children)

It’s an analogy amigo. You’re arbitrarily separating out some parts of the color spectrum as being in distinct categories the same way that you’re arbitrarily separating out sex spectrum traits as belonging in distinct categories. You’re basically operating with platonic categories when reality is actually nominalistic and all categories are merely subjective creations

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (104 children)

It’s an analogy, sure, but the analogy was part of the bigger discussion. It was a comparison to a sex spectrum. I pointed out several things and asked multiple questions about the sex spectrum that you are avoiding dealing with. So I’m done talking about colors, if you aren’t going to actually address my comments regarding the sex spectrum and the contradictions you made when explaining it to us, then I’m done talking to you too. If you don’t know what comments I’m referring to, I’m more than happy to copy and paste them for you. I’ll even point out specifically what I’m asking you to address.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (103 children)

Since you’re being so helpful sure copy and paste your questions and I’ll actually try to answer them to the best of my ability.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (102 children)

From one comment:

What would a sex spectrum be, if you don’t need the two sexes on the spectrum?

What is the spectrum measuring, if not sex?

How exactly does one describe a sex spectrum without sex?

Another:

Why is it that you said the changes a TW undergoes to appear female changes their position on the sex spectrum, but now you say there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex trait and a sex trait found typically on males doesn’t make anyone more male?

If there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex traits, how is there a spectrum? And what is it based on? And if there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex traits, wouldn’t that mean that since TW are born male, no matter what they change they stay male, according to your own logic?

How does that work?

How does hormones and or surgery change where a TW lies on the spectrum, but not facial hair? Particularly since a transman on testosterone may have facial hair? Are transmen stuck where they were born on the spectrum but TW can move? Why?

Yet one more:

My whole point being this-

you’re saying:

that male and female don’t exist

That sex is a spectrum (but between what and what we don’t know, because you said make and female don’t exist)

That sex traits are neither male nor female (then what is a sex trait? Why do we have different ones? And how is the spectrum measured?)

That TW can change their position on the spectrum through transition- by changing their sex traits (even though sex traits aren’t male or female)

But that a female (what’s that?) wouldn’t be on a more male end of the spectrum if she has facial hair, because sex traits aren’t male or female (then how did the TW move position on this spectrum?)

Also: I asked you to link the spectrum, and you failed to. Instead you offered an article about intersex conditions that I now see an actual intersex person debunked easily.

So you can’t prove any of your claims and they contradict each other.

Can you clarify?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I’m going to do multiple comments since I’m responding on a cell phone

What would a sex spectrum be, if you don’t need the two sexes on the spectrum? What is the spectrum measuring, if not sex? How exactly does one describe a sex spectrum without sex?

You simply reference the actual criteria that causes sex traits to occur in the form that they do. So take the prader scale for example. What causes Genitals to become more or less “virilized” to use binaryistic language. If it’s a certain biological factor like say testosterone or estrogen (I don’t know exactly as I’m not a biology major but logically there must be some factor that causes it), you could link the scale to a neutral descriptor like how much testosterone or estrogen has affected the genitals to cause them to occupy the position on the Prader scale that they do. In this way we can describe a sex trait without recourse to descriptions that presuppose one of two “normal” configurations with all intermediate stages as being “abnormal”. Rinse and repeat for all sex trait continuums and combine them together to form the multidimensional sex spectrum.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (9 children)

I believe I might have already answered the second of your questions in my first response, so tell me if I haven’t. As to facial hair yes it would be on the sex spectrum as it’s a sex hormone based trait.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

“[–]Heimdeklefi 1 insightful - 5 fun - 3 days ago

There is no maleness or femaleness to any sex trait, so while facial hair would be aspect of their sex spectrum coordinates it doesn’t make anyone more male”

You didn’t address anything. And you’re once again contradicting yourself. So I’m done.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

How am I contradicting myself? I agree with that statement and to my knowledge I haven’t made any statements that contradict that position. Care to show me where I have?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

The ISNA link clearly mentions the sex spectrum, how it works, why binary notions of sex are socially constructed, and also used the color spectrum as an analogy so I’m not sure that I understand you when you say that I haven’t linked you to ISNA supporting the existence of the sex spectrum. Elaborate please?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (89 children)

Trans women haven’t moved into the “female side” of the sex spectrum because it isn’t based in binaryistic notions. Rather trans women shifting their sex spectrum status refers to a biological change while trans women declaring themselves women/female is a declaration of occupying a subjective social position due to the human instinct to identify with observed groups.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (88 children)

This isn’t a response to you, I’ve given up on ever getting anything but annoyance from you at this point, this is for whoever is reading:

Trans women don’t move to the female side of the sex spectrum, they just shift their sex spectrum status= trans women move towards the female side, since they’d obviously not be altering their bodies to appear more male than they already did. (And they call themselves women because they reduce women to adult female humans or men who look like women (or look like they’re trying to look like a woman))

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (87 children)

Those are most certainly not equivalent statements. The sex spectrum does not presuppose a male and a female side