QT: Why is bigoted/violence to misgender someone, but mandatory to missex them?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

Caitlyn Jenner has sired several children, only possible from being male, yet even implying that Jenner is male is considered transphobic. However, beyond that often, if not always, the adjective used to describe someone like Jenner is 'female', not male, nor feminine.

If the word 'male' is banned because it could imply something beyond biology, then why should 'female' be fine? Is it because you don't mind implying that men who self-ID as women have female biology? In fact, are you quite keen on it?

Can you not see how some people would consider missexing sexist via erasure? Why should self-ID take such precedence that it doesn't just override, but overwrites sex? Jenner owes a gold medal & several children to belonging to the male sex. Why should it be considered so criminally obscene to use the correct sex when talking about someone, when their sex is so integral to a person's life?

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[–]BiologyIsReal 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

GC here, but I think missexisng is the whole point because reminding them of their biology breaks the fantasy. Talking about gender identity is just a way to make the general public to go along with the pretense.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You win. It wasn't a competition, but you win anyway.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

Referring to trans experiences as “a fantasy” is against the spirit of the sub

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Mine was one of the first comments in this post. Surely if mods though it was inappropriated they would have already told me so.

BTW, if you're going to go through my post history in your reporting spree, I hope you enjoy my many comments explaining how sex is binary.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Nah I’m going through posts themselves not peoples histories. Not that you aren’t special or anything ❄️

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Not really. Misgendering hurts because we all have some degree internalized transphobia not because it’s true. I mean you don’t have to believe in your religion being inferior for religious slurs to hurt.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Staunchly GC, but as emptiedriver said, it’s all about feelings. But the catch is, only the feelings of trans people matter.

Forget facts, forget logic, forget how regressive and sexist it all is, and forget that nobody should be compelled to speak against their own beliefs. Trans people can’t be triggered no matter what, because... well idk why to be honest, other than they’ll throw a temper tantrum and/or threaten to kill themselves if reality is acknowledged. That’s really how we got here, imo. None of it makes any sense logically or scientifically, it’s all emotional blackmail that we didn’t recognize in time to check. We went along when we thought it was harmless, and now they’re pushing as far as they can, because they’d rather try to force 99% to see things their way or at least pretend to, rather than 1% accept reality.

Sex is a spectrum, but you can change superficial things on your body that aren’t used to determine sex, and somehow you’ve shifted on the spectrum.

Gender identity is internal, but somehow determines your gender to society.

It doesn’t make sense and it’s never going to, but we just have to go along with it because only trans people’s feelings matter, apparently. More than science, more than logic, more than the rest of the world’s feelings.

[–]emptiedriver 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not QT, but I think the answer would be that it's not about sex vs gender, but about preferences of the person. It's considered respectful to call them by their gender bc that's what they want (like what name they go by) whereas physical reality is not what they wish it was, not your business, and/or not actually scientifically valid by new science rules.

So it's two sides of a coin - you mis-sex someone if they want you to. Facts aren't the deciding factor, just feelings.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is one of my major objections to the trans activist narrative. Trans people cannot change sex (by which I mean biological sex), only some sex characteristics. Claiming otherwise does not make sense. We do not have the technology. Not only does this claim make us look like loons, it makes it impossible to explain, for example, nonbinary lesbians, and suggests that trans people who do not physically transition are not trans because they do not change sex. I think the problem arises because many people use the term "sex" to mean social sex, that is, gender.

  • Biological sex: binary* and immutable (but some sex characteristics can be changed with surgery and/or hormones).

  • Gender identity: entirely subjective.

* Except for a tiny number of people with disorders of sexual development.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Caitlyn Jenner has sired several children

Six is more than several, LOL. Several means "more than two, but not many." By the standards of Jenner's generation, six kids constitutes many.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (69 children)

A civil person can avoid referring to someone by the thing that they hate most about themselves. Neutral options exist. You likely don’t call people fatty or mock them for a physical disability, why mock them for their chromosomes?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

It isn’t used mockingly. This is why we say it’s purely about feelings. You feel it’s mocking because you have unresolved issues with men and feel man is an insult.

Most people do not think this way. Most people do not think male=big dumb violent ape and do not use the term man or male to refer to a big dumb violent ape.

Why don’t the feelings of women who are insulted by calling a male a woman matter but the feelings of a transwoman who’s insulted by their own personal connotations to a word matter?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (44 children)

Man is an insult to a trans woman. And you know that. You at minimum choose to use a term that you know is insulting, regardless of whatever secret intent you may have.

If you don’t want to respect us, you could easily avoid gendered address or use neutral address, but you choose not to.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

You have no idea what I do in day to day life but ok. Yet again presume I’m out there trying to hurt y’all all day long. I’m asking questions about why you think what you think. It’s got nothing to do with what choices I make so cool it with the accusations for once in your damn life.

What is insulting about male? Why is recognising your sex the same as calling someone a c—t or a piece of shit?

Because it hurts the persons feelings or because it’s objectively insulting?

Care to answer anything I asked or just gonna accuse me of more shit you infer from some being asked something?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (30 children)

I recognize I am male but it’s still a terrible thing to be called. That’s also not the same as man which is well worse. Even male is insulting because it’s insulting. It’s calling someone fat or mocking a disability or deformity. If someone hates something about themself, espescially if they’ve changed it as much as possible. It’s at best a petty cruelty to refer to them as if that’s their defining trait.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

So you can’t explain how it is an insult beyond you dislike being reminded of your sex.

Nobody is saying it’s anybody’s single defining trait. It is one trait they have, and that trait happens to be what we base pronouns on.

Once again that is purely your personal interpretation, clearly coloured by years of resentment towards the males who made you feel dreadful as a child and adolescent. Since it appears you are still incapable of considering anything without your personal bias blinders on, I realise my questions are futile and you will simply continue to call me petty, cruel, and whatever else

It is rude and petty to say that someone’s feelings about compelled speech are insignificant in comparison to your idiosyncratic interpretation of someone recognising your sex.

Good luck with the thought and speech policing. Maybe you’ll find the control over other people’s perceptions of you that you’re seeking. Interacting with you again was a mistake. No need to respond.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (28 children)

Well since you asked a bunch of questions and insults I guess I will answer the for posterity anyway.

It’s a self evident insult. It is fundamentally hateful and disrespectful. I’d be less offended by being called ugly, stupid, or so many other things than being called a man.

Nobody is saying it’s anybody’s single defining trait.

You are. You are defining us and labeling us by that one trait over our objections and best efforts. How are you not treating it as a defining trait?

It is rude and petty to say that someone’s feelings about compelled speech are insignificant in comparison to your idiosyncratic interpretation of someone recognising your sex.

You have the option to say nothing or use neutral address. It’s in no way compelled speech. No one is forcing you to talk.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

It’s not fundamentally an insult because you dont like it. Why would you be the arbiter of what’s an insult and what’s not?

It’s like you’re physically incapable of recognising that other people have different thoughts to you lmao.

No, you’re just insisting we shit the fuck up forever because your feelings get hurt by your choice to assign meaning to a word that nobody else assigns to it.

Shocker, no explanations beyond “my feeling is a fact”

When I call a customer sir, I can assure you that I’m not right there informing him of everything he is. You just think that’s what’s happening because you reject the idea that other people define man as adult human male and not the garbage you’ve convinced yourself the word means.

Knowing a male is male says exactly nothing about his character, intelligence, ability, attractiveness, or choices. Only you and conservative sexists think that male is means or infers anything other than sex.

And now you’ll ignore all this and repeat that male is the worst word in the universe to call anyone cause you still either can’t or choose not to recognise anything other than your emotions as being real.

Really, good luck with managing to control others. Call people petty and cruel some more and they will see that your feelings are what defines words.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Insults are always inherently a subjective phenomenon.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (25 children)

You pretending that it isn’t intended as an insult is honestly baffling.

You use calling a customer sir as an example so let’s go from there. You clock a trans woman. You know she is a trans woman. You could say M’aam or miss but you obviously would object to that. You could also just leave off the address. Simply say “Have a nice day” or “What can I do for you?”. Gendered address need not enter it. Instead you actively choose to call someone that you know they will be insulted and hurt by. You know perfectly well how they would feel about being called that and that they will be insulted. Why use a gendered address at all when simply saying nothing causes no harm and is literally less work?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (24 children)

Love how you repeatedly presume I’m calling transwomen sir all day every day and not just asking you questions. Really drives home how you refuse to register what’s actually being said to you in order to continue ignoring what you can’t answer.

I’m pretending nothing. I’m saying that you interpreting a word as an insult does not suddenly make it an actual insult to anyone else. I’m saying that the word is used to say adult human male and not whatever bullshit sexism you prefer to claim it is.

Seriously either actually answer me or go make up stories about other people’s day.

[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If "man" and "male" are terrible insults, we shouldn't be calling anyone those words. They should be unutterable in polite company, they should be bleeped out when people say them on TV. Words that are intrinsically slurs aren't normally justified by saying, "it's an insult for me but some people really are that thing." Imagine if we treated any other horrible slur that way. Well, if you call me a ***** that's one of the worst possible insults, but you can call that person by that word, because they really are a *****. It just doesn't work that way.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Males of previous generations who were "gender non-conforming" or wished they were the opposite sex did not see the words "man" and "boy" as insults. A few examples:

https://youtu.be/kGfK6yJ2CAU

https://youtu.be/cJRP3LRcUFg

https://youtu.be/_r0n9Dv6XnY

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

That appears to be a music video of a a man who is expressing how cis he is, man who is pretty clearly cis and a man who is definitely cis.

Being not espescially masculine but still comfortably a man isn’t the same as being trans. It’s about dysphoria, not liking tight pants.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Those are three different videos of three different men, each struggling with the issues they have/had with their sexed bodies, sexualities and identities in their own ways. But of course you looked at only one, and sneeringly dismissed it.

Advice from one of the great "gender benders" of the 70s/80s, Marilyn Peter Robinson: Just Be https://youtu.be/X1vfQvOdK9M

Earlier videos of Marilyn from the 80s: https://youtu.be/Wy6flAFWZmc and https://youtu.be/bMw_iosf5QI

I recognize I am male but it’s still a terrible thing to be called. That’s also not the same as man which is well worse. Even male is insulting because it’s insulting. It’s calling someone fat or mocking a disability or deformity. If someone hates something about themself, espescially if they’ve changed it as much as possible. It’s at best a petty cruelty to refer to them as if that’s their defining trait.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being male! The sense you have that by being recognized as your sex you're being called something terrible and you're being insulted, mocked, hated, and subjected to cruelty by the whole world is a mistaken idea within your own psyche.

I'm really sorry you feel this way, but honestly your own internalized misandry is not the fault of me, anyone else here or in the wider world.

I wish you well and sympathize with you as another suffering human being with issues concerning our bodies and our sex - but at the same time, I'm not gonna agree that observing, making note of and speaking your sex is mocking, insulting and subjecting you to cruelty.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Those are three different videos of three different men, each struggling with the issues they have/had with their sexed bodies, sexualities and identities in their own ways.

No. Morrisey wasn’t trans. Like not even close. I can’t speak to the other 2 but not changing your body and singing about how much of a man you are are pretty clear cis signs.

But of course you looked at only one, and sneeringly dismissed it.

I watched all of them. But I also was already familiar with the Smiths.

Are you just ignoring what I am saying now? Some random Femme dude isn’t a trans woman. They aren’t the same thing.

And just be is exactly what we want. To go about our lives without being insulted by random people who could just leave us alone.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being male!

Maybe not to you, but if I wasn’t male my life would be so much better in every way. Jesus to be able to not be looked at as a freak by most people is a dream.

Everyone who interacts with me knows the score. I’m obviously a trans woman and you cannot reasonable mistake me for anything else. Anyone who misgenders me is sending a message. It’s a conscious choice to hurt when literally saying nothing is an option.

I'm not gonna agree that observing, making note of and speaking your sex is mocking, insulting and subjecting you to cruelty.

Hurting someone when you could literally just choose to do nothing instead is cruelty. You don’t have to acknowledge that but can you really deny it?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Huh? I never said any of these guys were "trans".

I am not mocking, insulting, hurting or being cruel to you. My guess is that this is the case for most of the people you encounter in your life.

Maybe there are people you know who have it in for you. Which is really too bad. But amongst those of us who are strangers, no one is out to get you, do you harm and cause you pain. The whole world isn't looking at you and judging you. Most people you come across in your daily life probably hardly notice you. That's how it is for everyone.

if I wasn’t male my life would be so much better in every way.

Nah, mate. If you were female, you'd have a whole different set of problems. The grass isn't always greener...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

It is impossible to say whether or not someone’s life would be better in a different set of circumstances, excepting situations where people are already in the worst possible situation imaginable.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Huh? I never said any of these guys were "trans".

Then they aren’t relevant to the discussion. Comparing a few not super masculine cis dudes to trans women is false equivalence. It’s pretty easy to be called a man when you don’t have dysphoria I imagine.

I am not mocking, insulting, hurting or being cruel to you. My guess is that this is the case for most of the people you encounter in your life.

You are just wrong. At minimum they know they are choosing to address a trans woman as a man when they could have chosen to just not use gendered address. They choose to harm.

Maybe there are people you know who have it in for you. Which is really too bad. But amongst those of us who are strangers, no one is out to get you, do you harm and cause you pain. The whole world isn't looking at you and judging you. Most people you come across in your daily life probably hardly notice you. That's how it is for everyone.

You have absolutely no concept of what it’s like to be a nonpassing trans woman. Particularly in a red state. Everyone notices you. Everyone. Most are benign enough to just give a judgmental look. Sometimes you get a nod from another queer person, I would kill to be able to walk through a room and have noone pay attention.

Nah, mate. If you were female, you'd have a whole different set of problems. The grass isn't always greener...

In this case it literally is. Certainly natal women on the whole have it harder than cis men and many trans women, but in my case my life would absolutely have been so much better as a natal woman.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I mean... a civil person wouldn’t ask someone to speak against their beliefs.

I would not call an overweight person a fatty, but I’m also not gonna lie and call them thin. It’s not mocking to acknowledge a fact. I do agree that irl it’s better to use neutral options, but I’ve seen people say that even that is transphobic or disrespectful.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I think neutral pronouns are a fine compromise personally but I’m not the high arbiter of trans people.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh no I’m not saying you are lol. I’m just saying I feel like the argument of “it’s the polite thing to do” kind of works both ways. People think what they think, and if a TW is male to them, demanding female pronouns could be taken as just as rude to the other side of the argument. I think the best bet for both sides is to compromise with neutral pronouns, but there are gc who think that’s still unfair and definitely qt who say that it’s transphobic to compromise on anything less than preferred pronouns. My point is just that it seems like when we come to the pronoun debate specifically, the argument of politesse or respect kind of can be used on both sides.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (12 children)

Thin and fat are terms that always imply a subjective comparison. They aren’t objective without context qualifiers

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I said I wouldn’t call an overweight person a fatty. Thin and fat may be subjective, but observing/recognizing that someone is someone overweight or obese, or under weight isn’t. I said I wouldn’t call someone who is overweight “thin” and I also wouldn’t call them fat. So I’m not sure what your point it. I’m flattered that you’re taking the time to go through and respond to all of my comments tho

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

Looking for rule violations to report. They’re everywhere!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Sure, I guess. It’s odd that you’d report something not aimed at you when the person it was said to didnt, but whatever. I was just wondering if you were being fair and reporting the many violations that qt males as well, or if you’re just going after GC.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

Everything I see. This place needs more order and less snark.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It would probably make more sense to just massage the mods about it than sending a bunch of reports but that’s just my opinion.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

I mean getting that crick out of their necks would be nice, but do you really think it would help?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think sending one message, as opposed to sending several reports would be easier. That’s just what I would do, is all I’m saying

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

A civil person can avoid referring to someone by the thing that they hate most about themselves. Neutral options exist. You likely don’t call people fatty or mock them for a physical disability, why mock them for their chromosomes?

Assuming and claiming that people with a physical disability see their/our disability as

the thing that they hate most about themselves

is really offensive and fucked up.

Trans ideology seems to be all about getting people to loathe aspects of our bodies, and to do so mainly based on what these aspects look like. Whereas most people with a disability, physical anomaly, genetic defect, life-altering medical condition or fatal disease will attest that learning to accept our flaws, physical reality and mortality is key to attaining any level of mental health and peace of mind.

Moreover, most people used to learn growing up that basing your sense of self and mental wellbeing on your (youthful) looks is a surefire recipe for lifelong misery.

Also, since when did simply making note of and mentioning a person's sex become "mocking them"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Trans ideology seems to be all about getting people to loathe aspects of our bodies, and to do so mainly based on what these aspects look like.

It’s not about “getting people to loathe” anything. We do. It’s called dysphoria. It’s not a choice it’s our reality.

Whereas most people with a disability, physical anomaly, genetic defect, life-altering medical condition or fatal disease will attest that learning to accept our flaws, physical reality and mortality is key to attaining any level of mental health and peace of mind.

Bold of you to presume to speak for the attitudes of “most people” with those things and assume I don’t have a disability. But again, dysphoria isn’t a choice. Magical happy thoughts can’t make you stop wanting to vomit or cry seeing your genitals.

Also, since when did simply making note of and mentioning a person's sex become "mocking them"?

You are calling a trans woman a man when you cold say nothing or use a neutral address even if you don’t want to be affirming. You are choosing to knowingly insult them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Magical happy thoughts can’t make you stop wanting to vomit or cry seeing your genitals.

Who here has suggested that "magical happy thoughts" are the cure for body loathing? Certainly not I.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Who here has suggested that "magical happy thoughts" are the cure for body loathing? Certainly not I.

learning to accept our flaws, physical reality and mortality is key to attaining any level of mental health and peace of mind.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Therapy and personal growth/acceptance of the unchangeable isn’t just thinking happy thoughts.
Very concerning that you reduce all the work people do to learn to accept their disabilities as magical thoughts.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Learning to accept ourselves is definitely not a magical, instant process! And it's sure not a wholly happy experience, at least not at every step along the way. It's a long-haul endeavor that involves facing our internal demons and experiencing pain.

Human happiness in itself is probably an unrealistic goal. Most people don't go through our days feeling happy. Most of us have a whole lot of unhappy feelings, but we accept them as part and parcel of the human condition and try to manage them as best we can.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

we accept them as part and parcel of the human condition and try to manage them as best we can.

You dismissing trans people then saying this is blowing my mind. That’s what we are doing. Trying to manage by changing what we can.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Obligatory not QT, but trans. So, as others have said, QT people usually feels like it’s a matter of respecting someone’s identity and what they want to be referred to as. I feel like most people just see it as a courtesy to someone and most of us don’t like making other people feel bad. I feel like in most areas of my life, you are seen as bad or mean for intentionally misgendering someone just because it’s part of what is expect now.

Personally, I feel like pronouns should be earned and no one should demand them. If someone passes, they’ll get those pronouns because that’s how people see them. I don’t think a trans person should correct someone on pronouns if that someone correctly uses sex based ones. There isn’t any concern about outing or anything because, that trans person wasn’t passing anyway. No ones owes anyone pronouns and it can’t take work to use ones that don’t match how we see a person. The only time I feel like it’s weird to use sex-based is if you naturally perceive someone as a certain sex, but then fine out they are trans some other way. In that situation, the misgendering is what take work, so why do it if you have to work harder to override your perception. Just seems mean and unnecessary.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree mostly, but I think if someone uses pronouns solely based on sex, them finding out someone is trans makes the switch to sexually accurate pronouns pretty natural. I can’t help but make the switch, even if I was surprised to find out someone is trans, I have information now I didn’t have before, and that information changed my understanding of their sex. I do think if this was someone I knew irl I’d either extend the kindness of using the same pronouns or at least switch to neutral ones, but in my head, and likely when referring to them elsewhere, it would be more work to continue to use those pronouns. That’s just me obviously, can’t speak for others.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I guess I can understand if that is how they thing about it automatically. I’m not sure if most people are like that though. I feel like if I knew anyone for very long, I’d probably be sort of stuck in how I think of them, even if I could do different pronouns, it would take effort. When I think about this type of misgendering, I think of religious people who were like distant relatives or friends of my parents we knew when I was very young who would like trip all over themselves trying to misgender me, but would often mess it up. It came off as really weird and forced to me, plus they would add extra gendered honorifics to make sure you knew they were misgendering you. I would always be super, super nice to them because it seemed like the best way to handle it. My brothers actually got upset it a few times, but it didn’t really bother me. It just seemed weird though and I didn’t understand why it would be so important to someone to let me know they didn’t approve of me. They weren’t gender critical my any stretch, just anti-trans.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think what you’re describing is just rude and spiteful. I guess I’m thinking more like someone who makes the switch subconsciously (me). I could also understand someone who switches intentionally, because they’re strictly gc and they don’t want to compromise their views, I agree that’s something that would require effort that’s probably not worth it to most people lol, but still think in either circumstance, if someone won’t use preferred pronouns, the best compromise would be sticking to neutral pronouns. I try to do that here. But I know I’ve slipped with some people.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Rude and spiteful is probably right.

I know that’s not you. Talking with you here, I feel like you’d be doing whatever you did because of how you saw them and not just to be mean. If someone subconsciously switched that is probably fine. When I was actually in real-life trans communities, I would occasionally misgender on accident because of how read someone’s sex so I could imagine you doing that if sex in the abstract really changed how you thought of a person. I don’t know I’d handle finding out later someone was trans (not like coming out as trans, but passing so well I didn’t know) when I thought they were just the opposite sex. I feel kind of cheated I’ve never had that happen lol (that I know of). I know things to look for so I’m much more likely to counterclockwise someone who isn’t than not notice someone is trans.

If someone wants to use sex-based because they are strictly GC, I guess that’s fine, although they shouldn’t be mad if trans people don’t want to spend time with them. If it’s like a political statement or something done for others watching, maybe it wouldn’t be necessary to do it all the time?

Anyway, sorry for the slow response. Your approach seems fine. :)

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

religious people

Again, this seems to be the crux of the issue.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Earning implies deserving, and deserving anything is impossible because free will doesn’t exist

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (209 children)

Male and female don’t exist (just as race doesn’t exist) and sex is a spectrum.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

How is sex a spectrum if male and female don’t exist?

(Also this doesn’t address the question at all. What does this have to do with “misgendering” or being forced to pretend we can’t tell someone’s sex?)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (54 children)

The same way that color is a spectrum even if you use coordinates rather than names to describe their properties.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Lol okay then, buddy

So what does this have to do with misgendering or being forced to “mis-sex” trans people?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (52 children)

The point sweetie, is that you’re not being forced to mis-sex anyone, but rather to correctly gender them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (51 children)

But if sex is a spectrum (it’s not...), that doesn’t necessarily mean that you can artificially change your place on the spectrum, since sex doesn’t change in humans, spectrum or not. And if gender is societal, if society sees someone as a man (or a woman), wouldn’t society, rather than the individual, be right?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (50 children)

Transition changes the status of some of your sex traits so that corresponds in a shift in sex spectrum coordinates. Also gender is societal in that the context that an individual develops in shapes their self image, but I would still consider the individuals internal psychological characteristics (i.e. what vague sex trait group they instinctually imprint onto) as being the primary determinant of an individuals GI. Thus how they see themselves is their GI, not how society sees them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

Lmao it’s like you make it up as you go.

Sex is a spectrum, but if you artificially change things that don’t determine sex, then you’ve shifted on the spectrum?

And gender is societal, but it’s based on an individual’s self image?

I understand that someone’s “gender identity” would be individual, but that doesn’t mean that society sees them that way, so just because gender identity would be individual, that doesn’t mean that gender is. And if gender isn’t individual (it can’t be, definitively, if it were there’d be no gender), then everyone is the gender society assigns to them on a general basis, regardless of someone’s gender identity. So a transwoman’s gender would still be male, and since biologically they are male, their sex would still be male, too. No amount of hormones or surgeries or behavior is going to change a tw to female when it comes to the features that determine sex- even if there were a spectrum, and considering all of the tras talking about how TW are mistreated and most people don’t want to date them and don’t consider them women, I’d say society doesn’t see them as women either.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (48 children)

How society sees them only matters insomuch as society’s views impact their idea of their own gender. The individuals viewpoint is what determines their actual gender as gender is a subjective phenomenon and thus only real to the individuals who believe in it. As for how society sees trans people, we’re winning that war and within a generation I expect us to be the majority view especially after we see the first trans woman give birth through transplants.

Hormonal profiles, external genital anatomy, internal genital anatomy, and secondary sex characteristics are all affectable through transition, so yes transition shifts an individuals place on the sex spectrum.

Also why would behavior matter in regards to “changing a tw to female”?

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

Humans can't change their sex. Neither naturally nor with the help of medical technology. There is not such sex change. What "medical transition" can only do is to create a simulacrum of the opposite sex through exogenous hormones and cosmetic surgeries. However, everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenous hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone. Although hormones and surgeries may affect your fertility, you don't suddenly start producing the gametes of the opposite sex. BTW, both males and females have the same sex hormones. The difference lies in the concentration levels of them. Also, the hormonal profile of females is more complicated because it varies through our menstrual cycles and through our different life stages. Genital surgery, which most trans identified people don't undergone, can only produce a simulacrum of the opposite sex's genitalia at best, with none of its funtionality. Lastly, more often than not, we can tell your actual sex.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That doesn’t make sense at all lol. Either gender is a socially formed construct or it’s individual. It doesn’t work both ways, it doesn’t make sense either way if we pretend it works both ways. I think you’re being incredibly naive about the “war” you’re winning but that’s a topic for a different post so I’m not getting into it.

None of the things you listed are used to determine sex. And genital anatomy is just not true even if those were valid determinants.

As for why I said behavior- I guess I used it as a stand in for gender identity. Basically I’m saying nothing changes TW into females other than the lie on some of their legal documents- which is only a lie on paper and means nothing for their sex/gender in actuality.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (152 children)

If male and female don't exist, then who produces sperm and eggs, respectively? Or is there a spectrum of gametes? You acknowledged the other day that the union of two gametes is needed to make a baby, but you didn't gave more details.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (151 children)

Gametes are produced by people who may have a variety of mixed or intermediate sex traits, and are not the sole determined of sex because then infertile people wouldn’t have a sex.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

But who produces each gamete? What kind of people get pregnant and give birth? What kind of people impregnate the former. What kind of people breastfeed? Don't be so vague and give me more details.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

People who posess one of the many combinations of sex traits that allow for the production of each gamete.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Which sex traits allow the production of eggs? Which sex traits allow the production of sperm? If you and others can't answer these simple questions, then it's clear the "sex is a spectrum" model is quite useless.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

I’m sorry, are you doubting the fact that several sex traits have to be in one of a number of possible sex traits configurations for viable gametes to be produced? I have answered these questions, I just see no need to expand unnecessary effort arguing with someone who close minded when I’ve already proven a certain point

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You haven't explained or proven anything. You're determined to be as vague as possible by only mentioning gametes (never specifying which one is produced by a given sex) and sex traits (again, never specifying what those traits are and what sex has them).

And QT is asking us to justify the existence of only two sexes all the time. So, why wouldn't you put more effort into explaining how the "sex is a spectrum" works?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Can you just link the spectrum for us so we can see what you keep referring to?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I would be interested to see just how much of a female I really am, having so foolishly thought of myself as one because of being born with a uterus.

Maybe if I stop shaving my armpits or drop to 80lbs again I’ll get some sweet male privilege. Body hair and low body fat can change my sex after all

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (17 children)

I find ISNA does a good job explaining it:

https://isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex/

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Wtf is that link?

with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris

The hell? How is it "in-between"?

My enlargened clitoris is just a big clitoris, it is in no way in between - it is just clitoris that is bigger than usual. That's it.

It can't ejaculate, I can't pee through it, it functions 100% as any other clitoris in any other female. The only difference is size.

or a boy may be born with a notably small penis

That is not intersex condition, by the way. And micropenis mostly showing up later in life - during puberty or later, not at birth.

Which variations of sexual anatomy count as intersex? In practice, different people have different answers to that question.

No? It is very distinct cases and it is important to know them for healthcare issues, as most conditions will have a lot of complications and some (like mine) are deadly if not being treated correctly.

Intersex is a socially constructed category that reflects real biological variation. To better explain this, we can liken the sex spectrum to the color spectrum

Are they are telling I am less female or what do they mean by "spectrum"? Like there "less red goess to yellow" there "less female goes male"? That is very dehumanizing and that is what was leading to IGM before. After scientists found that intersex people are ALWAYS male or female and that it is pretty easy to find out - IGM stopped in most cases, as now everyone knows that we are just same female as any other female (or same male as any other male) and that we don't need "fixing". And knowing biological sex started saving lives of people like myself - because boys and girls need different treatment and if it not received in first hours after birth - kid will either die or become heavily disabled for the rest of the life. And later in life we need different treatment and we have different complications. Other intersex conditions are most often are sex-specific and happening ONLY in females or ONLY in males.

So-called “sex” chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too.

Not very much, in 99.998% they are correctly showing sex. And genitals+chromosomes in 99.982% are showing sex correctly. So we are working with numbers like 0.002% and 0.018% of population.

But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order.

Wrong, it is done not for culture wise purposes or for social interractions, but for healthcare and correct treatment. And it is important - again, I'd be dead if in first few hours they would not do scanse to see if I am female or male. And this knowledge was needed not for "social purposes".

Also, are they saying that man with smaller penis is less man? Lmao.

So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins.

So yeah, they see me as "less female". And how to become "full female"? I don't want to be lesser. And no one want - and it WHAT leads to IGM among youth, it what leads to big distress among intersex youth. THIS is VERY harmful. This site is very harmful towards intersex people, why it even have "intersex" in their name?

Some think you have to have “ambiguous genitalia” to count as intersex, even if your inside is mostly of one sex and your outside is mostly of anothe

If it is so - then only around 0.012% or so are intersex.

Some think your brain has to be exposed to an unusual mix of hormones prenatally to count as intersex

Then around 15-20% of population are intersex, mostly women with PCOS and women or men with LOAH (LOCAH).

unless your brain experienced atypical development

What does this mean? This happens almost never and this happens almost always not to intersex people, wtf.

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births

How they got this number? It is around 0.2%, a bit less by majority of studies.

If you add all their numbers, there will be even less than 0.2%

I guess it is because they included "Late onset adrenal hyperplasia (LOAH) one in 66 individuals" - which is not intersex condition and people with it are 100% typical males or females, and this condition is appearing only late in life, and just affecting slightly hormonal levels and mostly it is about adrenal glands not working properly. If LOAH is considered intersex - then PCOS should be too. Then intersex will be like 1/10 or 1/5 of population, lol.

It is VERY dangerous site to intersex youth.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Don't be so angry, that site is very outdated:

and stopped updating this website in 2008

Why people are still linking it - is unknown, thought.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah, I see.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (10 children)

Or maybe you’re just wrong

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Wrong? Sorry, but I lived through this.

And if I am wrong - then how to become full female? Why am I less female? How my bigger clit is "more male" if it works 100% as clit and 0% as penis? How is it helpful to say to kids they are less female and how it will stop IGM, when it was THE reason of IGM?

And where exactly I am wrong? I am certain in everything I said - it is either lived experiense or medical fact.

I am rarely meeting so rude and unempathetic people, lol.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Classic "Sweetie, you just lived it wrong, let me endosplain you your own condition" I've seen hundred times from intersexphobes. I am so sorry for all this BS that people with DSD are living through because of this ideology.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

It isn’t more male. Maleness and femaleness don’t exist, just as races don’t exist. You just have a certain level of testosterone or melanin. Also get your facts straight, IGM was about bodily normativity not an inability to classify people correctly

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It was because of inability to classify people correctly or thinking that sex is a spectrum and people can be more or less.

If "maleness and femaleness" don't exist, then what that spectrum is at all? It makes no sense then. And how we can reproduce if there no males or females and we can't say who is who? And why 40 very rare conditions which are affecting very small percentage of people matters in this question at all?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Are you...

Everybody on this post is wrong except for you? Even someone with lived experience?!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I understand what intersex means, I’m asking for a link to the spectrum that shows everything thé full spectrum that included everyone, be they intersex, trans or not trans.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Read all the way through my guy, it describes the sex spectrum Halfway down

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Addressed this in my last two comments. It’s probably easier if we stay in one place (in the comments) from now on.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (120 children)

So would you say all secondary sexed traits are determining factors in someones sex? Like, presence of facial hair in a woman is caused by maleness, not a disorder like pcos? Do you think pcos is a disorder or just part of the spectrum? What about other hormone disorders? Not disorders because spectrum?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (119 children)

There is no maleness or femaleness to any sex trait, so while facial hair would be aspect of their sex spectrum coordinates it doesn’t make anyone more male

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lmao ok.

So what everyone else calls sexed traits are influenced by...what? Which genes influence them if we got it wrong with the sex genes?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (115 children)

Wait...

Why is it that you said the changes a TW undergoes to appear female changes their position on the sex spectrum, but now you say there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex trait and a sex trait found typically on males doesn’t make anyone more male?

If there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex traits, how is there a spectrum? And what is it based on? And if there’s no maleness or femaleness to any sex traits, wouldn’t that mean that since TW are born male, no matter what they change they stay male, according to your own logic?

How does that work?

How does hormones and or surgery change where a TW lies on the spectrum, but not facial hair? Particularly since a transman on testosterone may have facial hair? Are transmen stuck where they were born on the spectrum but TW can move? Why?

Also- still waiting on the link to the sex spectrum. You just posted an article explaining intersex, which we’re all pretty familiar with.

Eta: copied your previous comments in case you needed the reference:

“ hormonal profiles, external genital anatomy, internal genital anatomy, and secondary sex characteristics* are all affectable through transition, so yes transition shifts an individuals place on the sex spectrum.”

And

“Transition changes the status of some of your sex traits so that corresponds in a shift in sex spectrum coordinates.“

  • such as facial hair

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Transmen are always forgotten.

When people, even here, are talking about transgender healthcare - it is always transwomen specific stuff, like early puberty blockers and so on. It is almost never beneficial to transmen or even mentioning transmen. So like in general healthcare - people born male are getting focused and healthcare researched for male born people is imposed on females with lower doses. Same tendencies are here. I more specified it here.

Or like in Scotland recently - court "broadened" word "women" to include "transwomen" to give ability for transwomen to take women's spots in government, however, it not broadened word "men" to include "transmen", so they can't take men's spots in government. So like in regular politics - people born male have an advantage, regardless of their gender identity or expression.

And so on. I can list such examples for days. Transmen in debates are always forgotten or are an afterthought.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (113 children)

Why would you need maleness and femaleness on the sex spectrum for it to work? You can describe colors without resorting to using names on the color spectrum can’t you?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (112 children)

Are you kidding? What would a sex spectrum be, if you don’t need the two sexes on the spectrum? What is the spectrum measuring, if not sex?

How exactly does one describe a sex spectrum without sex? That doesn’t even make sense even coming from a tra perspective.

As far as colors- sure, I could describe Orange without explaining where it fits on a color spectrum, but only because we all already know what the color Orange is on its own, and even what shades it’s similar to. I can reference the fruit, the most common color of a basketball, various orange things that exist all around us and we all easily recognize. But I don’t even have to, because we already know what the color orange is.

I don’t really see how that’s comparable to you simultaneously insisting that sex is a spectrum, without male and female.

spectrum [ˈspektrəm] NOUN a band of colors, as seen in a rainbow, produced by separation of the components of light by their different degrees of refraction according to wavelength. (the spectrum) the entire range of wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. an image or distribution of components of any electromagnetic radiation arranged in a progressive series according to wavelength. used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points

In other words, if sex is a spectrum, it relies on male and female. It would have to be a spectrum between male and female. That’s the only way it makes sense. Just as Orange would fall in a spectrum, likely between red and yellow. You know why I guessed between red and yellow? Because I can explain that red and yellow mix into orange. Because I can reference a color spectrum and see it, unlike you, who keeps mentioning a spectrum that you can’t provide. Not even in the article you linked.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My whole point being this-

you’re saying:

that male and female don’t exist

That sex is a spectrum (but between what and what we don’t know, because you said make and female don’t exist)

That sex traits are neither male nor female (then what is a sex trait? Why do we have different ones? And how is the spectrum measured?)

That TW can change their position on the spectrum through transition- by changing their sex traits (even though sex traits aren’t male or female)

But that a female (what’s that?) wouldn’t be on a more male end of the spectrum if she has facial hair, because sex traits aren’t male or female (then how did the TW move position on this spectrum?)

Also:

I asked you to link the spectrum, and you failed to. Instead you offered an article about intersex conditions that I now see an actual intersex person debunked easily.

So you can’t prove any of your claims and they contradict each other.

Can you clarify?

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Short dismissive answers on long big posts, without adressing any points in those posts or adressing only small, minor or easiest to work around point.

This person does not worth any time or effort from anyone. They are acting just like a troll to make you angry, without answering any questions at all and to give vague answers.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (109 children)

Your perception of orange existing as a discrete entity separate from the colors that preceded and follow it is just another illusion

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (108 children)

Yeah I’m done. You’re not going to address anything I say. You just keep saying things aren’t real.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There really shouldn't be any reason to not be honest about sex if it comes up and the subject can't be avoided. Hostility maybe arises from the interpretation of a person's perception of another person's motives and intent, if they feel they're being slighted or insulted, plus their own unique history that led them to being trans. Some trans people probably feel deeply insulted when their biological sex is acknowledged, others probably just feel hurt or sad, others may feel absolutely indifferent, and perhaps some even feel proud about it. It's why there are a lot of different reactions and not all trans people will react the same way when such things are mentioned.

For those who do react very negatively to having their sex acknowledged by others, I would think the reaction is coming from a place of pain, whatever the reason. Whether it should or shouldn't, it must somehow hurt to have that brought up for such a person. Maybe it's the pain of a control-freak not getting their way, maybe it's the pain of not being seen through the lens of one's gender identity, maybe it's the pain of a reminder of a traumatic life, maybe it's the pain of real or imagined fear that one lives with that their status or history will be discovered.

From observation, people who struggle to fit in after transitioning or coming out tend to react more negatively to acknowledgment of their biological sex. If they were secure within themselves, why would there be any real reaction to that fact? That's not to say that these insecure people aren't who they say they are, but they're lashing out because they feel threatened by that fact and/or it being brought up. Their biological appearance and functions betray their birth sex more readily and it's harder to blend or be perceived by others as the opposite sex (or whatever sex or gender they see themselves as), and they know it because everything in reality reaffirms their unfortunate circumstance.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I've started saying things like "Sure I'll missex them."