How is identifying as transgender/nonbinary/whatever not catfishing?

submitted by censorshipment from self.GCdebatesQT

Catfishing is a deceptive activity where a person creates a fictional persona or fake identity on a social networking service, usually targeting a specific victim. The practice may be used for financial gain, to compromise a victim in some way, as a way to intentionally upset a victim, or for wish fulfillment. -Wikipedia

I'm looking at the Reddit profile of someone, who identifies as "enby", using an app called FaceApp. I am mortified at how the app filters his appearance to look like a woman. Of course he's in lesbian subs identifying as female even though he's obviously male.

Why isn't this considered catfishing? Why is it considered "transphobic" to point out someone's deceptive activity?

See for yourself... https://www.reddit.com/r/NonBinary/comments/mlzr8d/how_i_look_vs_how_i_want_to_look_i_really_just/

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Different motives. Plus transgender people tend to believe or want to believe their gender nonsense. Cat fishers are just scamming, no?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I think the creep you linked is definitely catfishing.

Id say trans people in general aren’t because they think themselves to truly be what they are presenting as. Obviously there are some trans people who can catfish, but if they’re using their real pictures but just not disclosing that they’re trans, idk if that’s catfishing so much as lying/deceiving by omission.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

There is no deception involved as we believe that our being trans is not necessarily a relevant fact about us. Deception must involve an intent to deceive no? Otherwise even if it was the case that trans people are objectively wrong about the importance of their trans status (a position reeking of cis-normativity) they wouldn’t be being deceptive just factually mistaken.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Even if you don’t think it’s relevant to you, it’s pretty obvious that it’s relevant to others. The intent to deceive is present in the refusal to disclose. Trans people know they are trans, and they know it matters to potential partners. So not disclosing isn’t factually mistaken, it’s literally not sharing something that you know could be a factor in whether or not someone is interested in dating you.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I dont know that it matters to potential partners because I don’t assume people are transphobic. So there remains no intent to deceive.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So you’re saying that you don’t care about people’s potential sexual or personal boundaries. Cool, I guess

If it doesn’t matter, because most people aren’t “transphobic” then there’s no reason to not disclose. It shouldn’t be a big deal, right? But because you know some people are “transphobic” (imagine calling people transphobic for having a sexuality that doesn’t include you🙄), why not be honest just in case you meet a potential partner who doesn’t want to be with a trans person? Wouldn’t it hurt more or put you in danger to be caught, instead of honest?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I think it' s a variation of catfishing. Let' s assume that "true" trans people genuinely see themselves as what they identify as, they still aren' t. So while the malicious intent might not be present, they are still doing exactly the same thing actual offenders are doing.

Reality isn' t as flexible as they want it to be, a man who poses as a woman, whether he does it because he' s a grifter or because he has a psychological problem, is still a man who poses as a woman and not a woman.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That’s a fair point. It doesn’t matter if they truly see themselves as what they identify as, they’re aware of the difference between a woman and a TW and if they aren’t disclosing, it’s not entirely separate from the concept of catfishing.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

It is still a matter of whether or not they think that their trans status is a relevant fact. If they don’t then it is not a lie of omission or an act of deception. Also knowledge that some people may have a problem dating trans people is not a reason to consider the fact of being trans as being inherently needed to be disclosed, anymore than the fact that some people may have problems with jewish people is a reason to disclose jewish ancestry.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

It’s not about the trans person. It’s about the potential sexual and personal boundaries of other people. That’s what you don’t seem to get. “Trans status” may be irrelevant to you- it’s wrong to assume it’s irrelevant to potential partners. It’s absurd and dangerous to pretend that knowing that some people aren’t open to being with trans partners doesn’t mean you need to disclose- that’s precisely why you should disclose- for your own safety as well as out of respect for other people. It’s wrong to deny someone the opportunity to consent to being in a relationship with a trans person. Nobody is entitled to sex. If you know there’s a high possibility that someone wouldn’t want to be with you because you’re trans and you use that knowledge as justification to not disclose, you’re a sexual predator. Your desire for sex or companionship doesn’t matter more than someone else’s right to consent.

Why would you even want to be with someone that would reject you if/when they found out you’re trans?

Jewish people don’t tend to pretend they aren’t Jewish, so I’m not sure why you’d use them as an example. But even if they did- Jewish people don’t take hormones and or get surgeries to become Jewish (they may convert but they can just say they converted). And Jewish people who are trans should still be honest about their sex.

Because sex is not the same as ethnicity or religion...

Someone may not want to date a Jewish person because they believe in a different religion. Someone may not want to date a Jewish transwoman because they don’t want to date someone who isn’t biologically female. It’s not comparable.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

It’s completely comparable. Someone’s transphobia does not mean that trans people have to disclose their trans status to anyone- period.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not wanting to date a trans person is not transphobic. Trans people who don’t disclose are sexually assaulting people by denying them the ability to consent.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (23 children)

Generally it is held that an intent to deceive is a necessary element to catfishing. That intent is lacking in trans people whom consider themselves members of their identified gender. Even if you were right in your belief that trans women are men it would be an issue of being factually wrong, not deceptive. Do you disagree?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Regardless of what any trans person believes- it’s safe to assume that they understand they transitioned, yes?

No matter if they’re tucute or transmed, no matter what particular trans ideology they subscribe to, they are still trans. Not disclosing that they’re trans is the intent to deceive. It’s only “factually wrong” if they forgot they transitioned. Which- how would they forget if they have to take hormones regularly and had/have to take special care to heal their GRS (if they didn’t have GRS, I’d assume the whole “I still have a penis/vagina would be a constant reminder that they are trans)?

If they haven’t somehow forgotten that they transitioned but they don’t disclose, they are intentionally deceptive.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As one transwoman on Twitter said "Being transwoman is one of the manliest things anyone can do, as no person who was born female can become transwoman".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think this all the time. I’m starting to see transwomen as the strongest example of patriarchy and misogyny I can think of (disclaimer for qt- not dysphoria or even transitioning as treatment, but a lot of other aspects). I’m stunned a transwoman said this!

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

How are the being intentionally deceptive? Trans people don't owe anyone their personal medical history, anymore than anyone without a communicable disease does.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

It’s not medical history. Transwomen are still biologically male and transmen are still biologically female.

If you want to defend sexual assault we don’t need to speak further. It’s one of the few things I can’t really move past in debate. The idea that you’re comfortable with rape by deception and or denying someone the ability to fully consent to being with a trans person makes me uncomfortable.

Eta: before you say something about how it’s not assault because you didn’t force anyone, you just withheld information- rape/sexual assault is not just about force or violence. It’s also about violation (amongst other things). If someone doesn’t want to be with a trans person and a trans person is not honest with them, if/when they find out, they will feel sexually violated and you have no idea how they may react or how it will impact them. As I said, nobody is owed sex or companionship. But everyone is owed the ability to give fully informed consent. It’s wrong to deny anyone- even a truly transphobic person- the right to consent. It blows my mind that you don’t get that. And it’s a disappointment, because I actually enjoyed debating with you but I think I have to step back from engaging with you for a while.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (14 children)

Understand that I am equally horrified by your views.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (13 children)

Idgaf 🤷‍♀️

Imagine promoting the « right » to rape but being horrified that someone else understands how sex works and thinks trans people should respect others. Lmao

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (12 children)

It is not up to trans people to root out if their date is a transphobe, anymore than a jewish person has an obligation to find out if their date is antisemitic.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Not comparable. Jewish people aren’t lying about their sex (or lying by omission).

You want to encourage a dangerous and rapey tactic to get more trans people laid, I guess... go for it.

I’ll just place my counter to that here: It’s dangerous, and it’s a shitty thing to do, but I guess if you think you’re entitled to sex, even with someone who would never want to sleep with you if they knew you were trans, if you’re fine with the thought of potentially sexually violating someone so that you can be sexually validated and sexually satisfied, if you don’t care that in any other situation where someone concealed a fact just so they could get off, we’d all understand that they were in the wrong...basically, if the effect you may have on your victim partner is not something you care about, go ahead and go assault people... I guess? Because technically you can, and that makes it okay?? But don’t try to justify it, just call it what it is- you want to get laid, and that’s all that matters.

I think it’s wrong, it’s been heavily discussed and it seems common consensus that it’s wrong and rapey as fuck, but Idk i guess use your « get out of being accountable because I’m trans » card, I’ve heard it’s good for life, you can never use it too much. (Heavy on the /s)

I was glad to see you comment because at least you keep it interesting. But I don’t really want to waste my time on people who are pro rape so we’re done here.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

It’s completely comparable to an antisemite being mad that a jewish person didn’t let them know that they were jewish. And thats why we’ll never agree on this.

[–]Juniperius 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

One of several reasons that makes this a bad comparison is that nobody expects to be able to tell by looking whether someone is Jewish. Religious beliefs are an intangible, internal quality, and Jews, like Muslims, Christians, atheists, etc come in all colors and appearances and both sexes. There may or may not be clues, and everyone takes for granted that you don't know people's religion unless they tell you. This is not at all like which sex someone is, which is obvious at a glance 99.9% of the time, and generally takes a lot of effort and money to hide - which means if someone is not the sex they appear, this is an active deception. Active deception is not equivalent to something you would never expect to know without asking.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

QT viewpoint:

There may or may not be clues, and everyone takes for granted that you don't know people's sex trait status unless they tell you.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If we consider sex and gender different, which your community keeps saying they are, then them really considering themselves their preferred gender still means that they are their biological sex. Sexual orientation is about sex and not gender, so even if they really consider themselves socially their preferred gender, they still know that their sex is another thing entirely.

Which means that part of their intent is still to pose as females when they know they aren' t.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

No sex is a spectrum and trans people literally change the status of their sex traits through transitioning.

Sex trait orientation is about which sex traits someone prefers, that does not presume the existence of binary sex categories

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure thing.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like using an app to heavily alter your appearance in photos is deceptive regardless of whether it involves a trans person or not. I’m not sure how I feel about dating profiles in general though and trans people. It seems like if you have the option to disclose trans status in a dating profiles you should. I never really experienced dating apps though so I don’t have strong feelings, but I do see how it could cause problems if you weren’t up front about it. Dating people you meet irl is different though and I don’t think you have to disclose immediately especially if it might out you in a larger social group. You need to be able to see that it’s going somewhere and know that you trust the person before that I feel like. If a guy asked me out for drinks, that didn’t give him the right to my life story immediately. You can still respect people I feel like and choose to talk about it if and when the time is right.

[–]Greensquidsphone 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

usually targeting a specific victim

I mean it's right there.

Edit as a side note, not really sure how to be both NB and a lesbian, so congrats to them...

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Because the term can mean whatever we want it to mean. I mean, why was a term for a people of a specific greek island used as a term for sex trait attracted orientation anyway?

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn't consider that catfishing, because they posted real unedited pics and was clear that the edited pics were fake. If they were deceptive about being trans and passing fake pics off as real, then it'd be catfishy. Generally if trans people are honest about who they are, not using fake pics, not hiding trans status, etc. then I don't think its catfishing.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The "wish fulfillment" part of the catfishing definition is interesting. Like others say, the only reason I don't see a cross-gender/sex identity being considered catfishing is because trans people genuinely see themselves as the person they say they are, and it's an identity that remains the same even in private as opposed to a cat fisher's façade which is just a tool or means to an end.

Using an app to alter appearances isn't necessarily a catfishing thing maybe, but it's certainly disingenuous and not really a decent thing to do.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

because trans people genuinely see themselves as the person they say they are

How can you be sure of that, though? I have followed the HER app nonsense Graham Linehan went through, I don' t believe even one of those guys actually genuinely believes he' s a woman.

But in general, the issue is still the same as any other sex segregated space that exists: nobody can tell "true" trans people from trenders and or grifters.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

, I don' t believe even one of those guys actually genuinely believes he' s a woman.

You don’t think trans people can have different definitions than you? Really?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Of course they can. I don' t believe those in particular do.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Why?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because I don' t, that' s why. You never have instincts based on people' s actions and words? I do. You believe everything people tell you without even once thinking "this is bullshit"?

Those guys look and sound like any other "brilliant" man who is attempting to con women into sleeping with him, not guys who genuinely think they are women. This is just another PUA trick for them.