QT: How is not creepy/predatory for people with male bodies aka men to demand access to women's single sex spaces where women are going to naked like locker rooms?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

What evidence ​do you have that men who claim to be women are less likely to be creepy/predatory than any other man?

Actual good men who aren't creeps/predators know exactly why they shouldn't enter women's single sex spaces and respect that boundary without a second thought. It's a huge red flag for any man to demand access to single sex spaces where women are especially vulnerable to sexual assault, rape and harassment.

Many men who have demanded that safeguarding for women and girls be dismantled in the law have turned out to be pedophiles and sexual predators. Do you find it a bit disturbing that destroying single sex spaces for women would directly benefit pedophiles and run of the mill sexual predators? Is it really worth it to make a fraction of a minority of the male population feel more "validated"?

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[–]worried19 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I doubt you'll get much of a response. They'll just claim that they're talking about women, not men, and there's no difference between trans women and natal women even if there are no hormones or surgeries involved.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m not going to really comment on this tonight because I have to sleep (and also I am not QT), but I do feel like when it is framed this way it makes it really hard to respond too. I understand this is how many GC people see it, but just so easy to imagine QT looking at this question and just being like.... nooope...

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is the point of the question. It should be uncomfortable. It should make people squirm a little. When you take a cold hard look of the reality of what trans right activists are demanding, it isn't pretty.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 13 fun3 insightful - 12 fun4 insightful - 13 fun -  (10 children)

Its not creepy because those are our spaces. It is however creepy that people focus so much on us just trying to use our spaces.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

What makes those spaces yours?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 12 fun2 insightful - 11 fun3 insightful - 12 fun -  (4 children)

Because we’re women

[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What is a woman? A social construct? Ok, then can you tell us what characteristics define the social construct of womanhood?

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In a previous thread, you defined women as

A social construct

By their sex spectrum status

XYZ definition

I mean, they’re not inherently anything.

You also said

I just can’t bring myself to commit to the effort of educating you all on nominalism when it will achieve nothing. It just seems like wasted effort

I submit that this isn't "nominalism," it's intellectual dishonesty. You cannot simultaneously refute and argue for materialist categories while maintaining the integrity of your position.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nominalism doesn’t say so and either does biology. What makes trans women supposedly the same as actual women?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nope women don't exist according to you. :)

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Are you saying that a space specifically reserved for people with female bodies also belongs to people with male bodies if they say so? What about female bodied people's consent? Is it okay to violate their consent without their express permission? How is it not creepy/predatory to violate people's consent especially when they are changing?

"There is no right to share intimate spaces with members of the opposite sex without their consent"

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 12 fun3 insightful - 11 fun4 insightful - 12 fun -  (2 children)

Sex is a spectrum, there are no female bodies. Also they can’t give consent for something that already belongs to trans women

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you deny that half of the human population have bodies built to be able to gestate and give birth? What are these bodies exactly if not female? Do you deny that the other half have bodies that are built to be capable of impregnating the other half? What are those bodies exactly if not male? Extremely rare exceptions to the rule do not a spectrum make.

If there are no female bodies how do you explain how we figured out with astonishing accuracy which half of the human population to deny basic human rights for 1,000s of years up to the present day? The baby girls being buried alive in misogynist countries didn't get to identify out of being female. The girls dying in menstruation huts sure as hell didn't to get to identify their way out of their demise. The little girls married off and raped by old men dying from being impregnated at a far too young age didn't get to identify out of it either. Female bodied people have bigger problems than whether or not someone recognizes their "identity" or uses the correct "pronouns". Why should trans activists be allowed to trample over the very real, very urgent needs of female bodied people? Why should sex denialists have any influence on the law? We may as well let flat earthers run the coop while we're at it.

Not being allowed to trample over women's consent, bodily autonomy and basic liberties is not oppression. Trans activists who are hellbent on destroying women's rights are the oppressors, not the oppressed. The cornerstone for women's liberty is being able to say no to men, no matter how they personally identify. If we cannot say no to men in single sex spaces, if we cannot reserve spaces for women to save them from male violence, child marriage and all of the other horrors that are inflicted by men on women throughout the world, how else exactly are we supposed to protect ourselves? Do you have an alternative better solution to protect women from male predation once all of women's single sex spaces are gone? Do you have a better way for women to advocate for their liberation when women are no longer allowed to meet together to advocate for their interests and rights free from male influence?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It doesn’t belong to transwomen though. Nothing needed for female people belongs to transwomen. Not shelters, not changing rooms, not public toilets. How can these spaces possibly belong to transwomen when transwomen are supposedly not possibly a seperate group of people with common characteristics?

What’s up with this sudden lack of nominalism?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 5 insightful - 8 fun5 insightful - 7 fun6 insightful - 8 fun -  (6 children)

First of all if like to thank you for the question. Before I proceed with an answer id like to point out a few things, which may be reasons why you won't get an answer.

1st: Your question itself is loaded. By asking a negative "why is it not... ?" everyone who wants to answer will instantly have to start any point by defending a position your question assigns to them. A position they may not necessarily share. 2nd: In your question you equate male bodied = men instead of just using male. Here you're again injecting your own position into a question...

Nevermind. I just read the rest of your post and it continues in the same charged way by equating trans women's need for safety - which is the same desire as cis women's - to predatory behavior via the red flag bit. Maybe you can do better in your next post.

Do you find it a bit disturbing that destroying single sex spaces for women would directly benefit pedophiles and run of the mill sexual predators? Is it really worth it to make a fraction of a minority of the male population feel more "validated"?

I'm just gonna respond with a simple answer. Increased trans visibility will lead to decreased safety in strictly sex segregated spaces. Simply preventing trans women to enter these spaces wont change that. Why do I think so. Let's assume that spaces where strictly sex segregated. You know have trans men - which greatly increase in numbers atm using women's space. Let's assume a few of these pass - which is likely. You know have what looks like a cis man in a female space. In my opinion this would make it even easier for potential predators.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The issue is not transwomen's transness it's the fact that they have male bodies. If a transwomen uses a unisex communal changing room it is no longer creepy and predatory, everyone has already consented to share that changing room with male and female bodies. The issue is deliberately crossing the line into predator territory by going into women's single sex spaces without women's knowledge or consent. For 99% of society women means female bodied person. So when women see women only on the door they understand it means they are only sharing the communal changing room with other female bodied people. It is a violation for a male bodied person to enter that space. Only to the trans movement does it also mean a male bodied person who claims to be female.

This site breaks it down quite clearly: "There is no right to share intimate spaces with members of the opposite sex without their consent"

The refusal to accept third/unisex spaces as a good compromise only adds to the creepiness of the demand. Also if any male is permitted in a female changing room the sign should always be changed to unisex so people know exactly what types of bodies they are consenting to share the communal changing room with. You are asking women to give male bodied people the benefit of a doubt. It's not all men all over again.

Enough men are predators that we need to be able to enforce flashing & related laws to hold predatory men accountable in full force without any confusion. Any male bodied person in a women's changing room is a violation. Full stop. Any visible penis in a women's communal changing room is flashing and the male bodied person should be charged as a sex offender. The simple solution is for transwomen to use the space reserved for male bodies, a private individual changing room or a third unisex space which many facilities already have (Family changing rooms).

Your side is making the insane claim that men aka people with male bodies should be treated as though they were actually female. You should backup your claim with evidence. Prove to us that there is a special subset of men who are as low of a threat women as women are to each other. Give us good reasons why women should treat a subset of male bodied people exactly the same as female bodied people. My side is based on objective easily verifiable reality and decades of stats showing that men as a group are a threat to women's safety.

Transmen still have a lower rate of violence especially sexual violence than transwomen, because they are female. Many transmen do not pass at all, in fact I recommend that most of them continue to use female only spaces for their own safety. Their female socialization often gives the game away even if they do pass. I have no problem sharing a communal changing room with the Buck Angels of the world. Her female socialization makes it obvious that she is actually a woman. Many if not most passing trans men can put women at ease with a simple explanation. Heck the mastectomy scars make it really obvious they are actually women. Detransitioned women should also be welcome in female only spaces even if they look fairly masculine for the rest of their lives. They have female bodies, therefore they are welcome in women's single sex spaces. It's not fair or right to force men to share their single sex changing rooms with female bodied people either, but less of a pressing issue, because female bodied people aka women aren't a major threat to men's safety.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 3 insightful - 9 fun3 insightful - 8 fun4 insightful - 9 fun -  (1 child)

I didn't intend to reply tbh so I'll kepp it brief. Linking a GC blog that does not adress my singular point [trans men are an even easier front for predators than trans women]] so I doubt you mind I simply ignore it. No objection? Great.

I did not ask females to give males the benefit of the doubt. So I'm gonna ignore that as well. Much obliged. I'll stop being snarky. I tend to respond to comments one paragraph at a time since I'm on mobile. I read through the rest of your comment and noticed that you don't engage with my point. But I'll adress the last paragraph you wrote.

Transmen still have a lower rate of violence especially sexual violence than transwomen, because they are female.

I did not make any assumption to the contrary.

Many transmen do not pass at all, in fact I recommend that most of them continue to use female only spaces for their own safety. Their female socialization often gives the game away even if they do pass.

And now you proceed with the toupee fallacy. Let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're exceptionally great at spotting trans men. You're not most of the population in this case and your run of the mill predator would still have greater chance passing as a trans man than as a trans woman.

It's not fair or right to force men to share their single sex changing rooms with female bodied people

I agree in a kinda reverse sexism way, but I don't remember bringing that up. Sooo... Yeaaahhh...

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Trans men are not an easier front for predators, nor do they pose the same risk to women as transwomen. Thanks to self ID there are lot of transwomen that are unambiguously male, because they are male.

You are ignoring my point that it is predatory and creepy to violate women's consent when a male bodied person enters single sex spaces reserved for people female bodies.

Edit: Also if we don't allow trans people to change their driver's licenses and birth certificates we have an easy non intrusive way to verify who is actually male or female when needed if someone's actual sex is ambiguous thanks to body modification. Body modification is a choice. People who choose to modify their body should accept the consequences of that choice and not destroy the rights of other people to consent, safety, privacy and dignity.

[–]BiologyIsReal 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your question itself is loaded. By asking a negative "why is it not... ?" everyone who wants to answer will instantly have to start any point by defending a position your question assigns to them. A position they may not necessarily share. 2nd: In your question you equate male bodied = men instead of just using male. Here you're again injecting your own position into a question...

Like QT didn't usually do the same thing...

Nevermind. I just read the rest of your post and it continues in the same charged way by equating trans women's need for safety - which is the same desire as cis women's - to predatory behavior via the red flag bit.

It would be great if QT stop pretending this issue is about safety. If trans identified males were just worried about their safety in sex-seggregated spaces, they would accept third spaces as a solution. The fact that most of them are completely againt this compromise and insist in accessing women's spaces, in spite of women's concerns, show us that what they really want is "validation". OP has a point in what she says because, just like with other males, we cannot tell which trans males are predators and which ones aren't. Futhermore, we cannot ignore the fact that most trans males are sexually attracted to women, that most of them don't undergone any kind of genital surgery, that many of them are perfectly okay with ignoring women's boundaries (i.e. trans males accessing places like women's bathrooms, changing rooms, shelters, etcetera despite not all women are fine with this) and that many of them have no problem threatening dissenting women (and many times such threats include their "girldicks").

Maybe you can do better in your next post.

Yes, because we all know that women framing their concerns in a compassionate way can expect to be treated the same way./s If only QT would police their own half as vehemently as they police women... Where are all the articles condemning the doxing, death and rape threats, etcetera of fellow transactivists? Where are all the articles saying, no, demanding that transactivists should do better?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In both situations we are ending up with "someone looking like a man in women's spaces".

But in one situation that someone would be female, with around same strenght as other females, without ability to impregnate and with around 1000 times less tendencies to violence than males. And in other situation that someone would be male, who is stronger, on average more violent, who will not understand female's lived experience and needs.

In one case there can be some misunderstanding with transmen. In other case woman will be charged for asking why someone who is identifying as woman once a week on thursdays is accessing shelters or showers.

In cases like with Californian shelter it will be different too - when such transman would be in the shower with other vulnureable women they would still have cosmetically changed female body. While what we got is some male pretending to be transwoman with erected penis showering with women who were raped recently or survived domestic violence and making sexualized comments about them. And when they refused to shower - by rules of shelter they should be excluded from it (as can't be dirty there, need to eat and shower) and be homeless.

And so on. In both cases it is "can be abused", but in one case women can say "no" and most times that "manly looking person" will be female, and in other case women would be punished for saying "no" and most times that "manly looking person" will be male, who can just pretend to be trans (as nowadays all you need is just say "I am woman today", so not really much work for them to do - especially remembering so recent doctor and priest scandals, when paedos studied for decade to gain access to victims, compared to that just saying few words is just nothing). And in some countries like Norway or Canada, it is possible for man just say they are non-binary, and that is giving them ability to chose which spaces they want to enter - so even less effort needed.

And anyways, IF they pass really well, they can just use toiled to "sex they are passing well as" and that would not be that big of a problem. But overwhelming majority of transgender people does not pass, and many of predators are not even trying, so they would be easy to spot on in such scenario.

[–]Penultimate_Penance[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Excellent point

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 9 fun -  (1 child)

I am against sex-segregated spaces in general. That said, no one should be naked around a bunch of strangers to begin with just to change. But since that's the case, I don't think it matters who you're naked around, you are still naked around a bunch of strangers.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What do you think of the fact that males make up the vast majority of sex crime perpetrators? Do you disagree? If not, how do you reconcile saying that it doesn’t matter with males being the most likely to plant a camera and sell footage you don’t know about of you changing a tampon?