All: Disclosure and Consent

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

Let’s talk about it, as cordially as possible 😅

Should trans people disclose?

Why or why not?

And if so, when (and why then)?

Is it a form of rape, sexual assault, or violation to not disclose? If so why and at what point (date? Kiss? Sex?)? If not, why not?

Is not disclosing sex comparable to not disclosing race, religion, marital status etc? Why or why not?

Is it safer for trans people to disclose or not to? Why or why not?

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Should trans people disclose?

Yes.

Why or why not?

Because I think people have the right to know if the body part they are going to have in their mouth/vagina or the body part they are going to stick their penis in is real or the result of surgery or if it is artificial. Long story short, I want to know if the fallic thing I am sucking on is made of arm skin or it' s the legitimate thing.

And if so, when (and why then)?

The second there is talk about dating with the prospect of sexual intercourse: there' s no point in wasting your time with someone who doesn' t want to have sex with you, and there is no point in wasting someone else' s time if sex is something you both want and one of you doesn' t want to do it.

Is it a form of rape, sexual assault, or violation to not disclose? If so why and at what point (date? Kiss? Sex?)? If not, why not?

Yes, it is a form of sexual assault and violation because the person who doesn' t know cannot make an informed decision.

Any kind of sexual intercourse is a sexual violation if you don' t disclose your sex. Maybe an argument can be made for kisses, I don' t know if I would make that argument, but I can understand why that can be considered muddy. Anything else is a sexual assault.

Dating? I think it' s a potential waste of time, but it' s not a sexual assault.

Is not disclosing sex comparable to not disclosing race, religion, marital status etc? Why or why not?

No: while I do think that those should be disclosed if they are not obvious or if the situation makes it obvious that it' s important for the other person (for example, if you know the person you are going out with only dates latin people regardless of their skin colour, and you let her think that you are one, you are deceiving them), and that lying about them is deception, the things that are being lied on are not sexual in nature. I don' t have sex with someone through their ethnicity, religious beliefs or marriage, I am having sex with someone through their genitals.

Is it safer for trans people to disclose or not to? Why or why not?

If you are so worried about being attacked for being trans, tell the person you are seeing that you are trans in public so that there are fewer chances that that person might become violent.

I truly do not understand the argument that some trans people make about not wanting to disclose because it' s dangerous and then still sleeping with that person: why would anyone want to have sex with someone they might consider capable of killing them for what they are? Why would anyone want to have sex with someone who could be completely disgusted by them?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

why would anyone want to have sex with someone they might consider capable of killing them for what they are? Why would anyone want to have sex with someone who could be completely disgusted by them?

Keep in mind I am pro disclosure but it’s pretty easy to see that it’s because they are lonely. Some people will be with anyone who will have them even if they are awful or cruel. When you know no one will have you, you can look past a little thing like someone thinking you are disgusting just to be with someone.

But again. Trans people should disclose.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I know it' s because of that, and it' s not necessarily something limited to trans people by the way. I just don' t understand that state of mind, thankfully.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

I think it’s quite common for us really. Like trans women who sleep with chasers even though we are literally just fetish objects to them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I get what you’re saying. I think what I don’t get is why someone would sleep with someone without disclosing (opening themselves up to risk), when they could sleep with a chaser if they’re just feeling lonely? Like I just don’t get taking that chance.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That' s a good point.

Like for many other questions, I think validation plays a strong role.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

It’s hard to tell who people who are in that low of a place do things. But also chasers don’t want post op trans women. They just want dick.

[–]grixitperson 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Always disclose.

[–]FlanJam 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Any half-decent human being would wanna be sure their partner is comfortable and ready before taking the next step. So yes, trans people should disclose if they care about their partners.

[–]worried19 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I foresee this thread potentially turning ugly.

I think they should disclose. It's the ethical thing to do, and also important for personal safety if we're talking about trans women who engage with men. Disclosure should take place before sex, at the very least.

[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, they should disclose. No one is owned sex. Not disclosing information that your (potential) partner would find as a deal breaker is a selfish move. And given that sexual orientation is based on sex, not disclosing your actual sex it's a big deal. It also opens the question on what else would you lie about. Anyway, I don't know how likely those cases actually are. I mean, in most cases people can see what sex someone else is, especially once clothes are off.

When to disclose? Pretty early in the relationship, I think. Personally, I'd say before dating, but that may be because I wouldn't date a stranger, let alone get physically intimate with one.

I never understood the safety worry that trans identified people bring about in this topic? I mean, why would you want to sleep with someone that would kill you? Shouldn't you want to filter out the "transphobes"?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Apparently all “transphobes” have to ask everyone they date/hook up with if they are trans because undisclosed preferences shouldn’t be respected.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

And the second you ask if they are trans, you are a transphobe anyway, because if you refuse to have sex after finding out then you are a bigot. Not to mention asking might be triggering for them anyway.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There’s no winning.

“Genital preferences are okay. Except not really because they’re transphobic. Also gentils preferences only counts if they’re pre op otherwise you’re super transphobic because there’s literally no difference. Also it’s up to you to state ahead of time if you have a preference. But also don’t state ahead of time or ask us ahead of time. And if you do ask, and you’re not interested just be polite about it. You’re still a transphobe though, even if you’re kind about it. Also I get to only want to sleep with cissies if that’s my preference and that’s totes valid. Also…”

[–]wokuspokus 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, for two reasons. Firstly, some people have a genital preference and I don’t think that’s transphobic. Non-disclosure can end up with the other party saying no (and this is an awkward and unpleasant experience for both parties). At the end of the day, if you end up *doing the deed, they’re going to know, so surely it’s best to disclose and have a respectful conversation first.

Secondly, and I think this is more important, SAFETY. Particularly if men are involved. Women don’t want to have to check behind regularly, or avoid going out alone after dark. We’d rather not, but we do it for our safety. Surely disclosure of trans status prior to having sex with someone goes along the same lines.

Is it a form of rape/sexual assault? I’d say it’s a form of sexual assault, as the other party isn’t able to make a fully informed decision (this applies to intercourse only).

Comparable to religion, race etc. Tbh I’m not sure. Think this is highly context dependent. I wouldn’t have sex with someone before I knew them properly. So, I’d be aware if you had fundamentalist religious views by then anyway. (For me, believing strongly in queer theory is a dealbreaker- our core beliefs are in direct competition). I imagine if you do one night stands, what people believe may not be important, so in this context it’s not the same. As for online dating- I don’t really know about it, but I’d say probably disclose before you meet?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s such a good comparison (women checking behind ourselves)! Like no matter what you think about transwomen, it’s a basic safety precaution. I do not understand the argument that it’s somehow safer to not disclose. Even if there was no question of sexual assault/sexual boundaries, the safety factor should be reason alone and it’s so odd to me that some people pretend it isn’t.

Even if they don’t understand that there could be a moral obligation, I cannot comprehend the willingness to jeopardize your safety.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Before sex disclosure is a must. Sexual orientation matters and should be respected. Gay men are not interested in vagina. Lesbians don't do penis. Heterosexual people aren't interested in people who are the same sex. Bisexuals are more likely to be open to it, but they deserve to know beforehand.

After surgery it should still be disclosed. Many people do not want to have anything to do with neo genitals. Surprise neogenitals are likely to be traumatizing for the other person especially if they get up and personal before finding out what they are actually dealing with.

Neovaginas aren't even remotely close to vaginas. Neopenises aren't even remotely close to penises.

Initial dating it should be up to the individual trans person when it makes sense to disclose, but for long term dating the other person should absolutely know. Kissing is a bit of a gray area, but knowing the sexual orientation of the person you are dating can help determine if it's okay or not.

[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

but knowing the sexual orientation of the person you are dating can help determine if it's okay or not.

And here lies the problem. Because many trans people want to interpret other people's sexual orientation to be based on "gender identity" rather than sex.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That and or they think that bottom surgery means you qualify as fitting the sexual orientation of the other person.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. The lack of empathy & even the most basic consideration trans activists and their ilk have for others is a huge problem.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Be careful with this topic! Usually these threads don’t go well. I will lock it if it gets bad.

I feel like dating and kissing (because sometimes it’s hard to avoid) are okay, but it the safest thing would always be to say it in advance. I feel like trans people today meeting people they don’t know on dating apps should just disclose because it’s easy and there isn’t any social risk because you don’t know the person yet (like they can’t out you at work or in a friend group for instance). You should always disclose before sex though. It’s not fun and it hurts, but it has to happen unfortunately. It would be very wrong not too.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I only made the post because I know you or Biologyisreal are usually around lol. I figured if/when it takes a left turn one of you’d shut it down (sorry tho lol)

I think I agree, about dating. I think if you’re talking to someone online, on a dating app, or on the phone or something, you should disclose before meeting. But I understand if someone is out and about and gets hit on not disclosing then and there. though if numbers are exchanged, would it not be better to disclose over the phone, before the date? Genuinely asking, like I just think it’s safer to disclose when you’re not physically there juuust in case but idk

Kissing can be spontaneous so I guess I can see how that could happen without disclosing, but if someone is told before a date then that’s not an issue (obviously people get kissed when they aren’t on a date so this isn’t a perfect solution)

And I obviously agree not disclosing before sex is wrong.

I am curious if you think not disclosing is similar to concealing something else that may be a “dealbreaker”? But I understand if you don’t feel comfortable answering.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

But I understand if someone is out and about and gets hit on not disclosing then and there. though if numbers are exchanged, would it not be better to disclose over the phone, before the date?

I feel like it depends a lot on how you know the person. Like, my husband and I had been coworkers for 3 years before we ever dated. I didn’t know him super well before he asked me out, but if he reacted badly I would have had to worry about him outing me to work or other people as like an act of revenge. I could have decided not to agree to go out with him, because it would have been a risk, but if did that standard I’d never date any guy because it was almost always men I worked with or were in my friend circles who would want to date me. You have to trust someone to give that to them I feel like because they can try to mess up your life. Even if telling him over the phone removes the immediate physical danger, it doesn’t remove other worries like that. If someone isn’t dating someone like that who could hurt them, they should just do it though.

I am curious if you think not disclosing is similar to concealing something else that may be a “dealbreaker”?

I feel like it could be like a (lesser or greater, depending on how they take it, version) of not disclosing marital status. I’ve unfortunately found out I later a guy I was (or thought I was!?) dating was married and I was really upset. There could be women who would be alright with that, but I wasn’t and felt deceived and that he had led me on.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It does seem tricky to date inside your work or social circles. It seems like what’s most fair to the other person in that scenario is such a risk for the trans person. But I still think it’s probably better to tell them before, because if they’ll out you just for finding out someone they were interested in is trans, I feel like they’d do the same or even more if they find out after a date or two. Basically I think if someone is going to react in a shitty way, they’re gonna react that way no matter when you tell them, and it may be worse if things go further than a casual flirt and exchange of numbers. So if someone is afraid of someone they know knowing, it’s safest to not risk dating them at all. Then again- you’d have missed out on your husband. Then again again- your husband obviously isn’t the type of guy who’d react badly lol

I hope that makes sense

As far as the married guy thing- I used that same example before I saw your comment. I don’t think I’d feel violated, but I would feel deceived and guilty (even though I’d have done nothing wrong).

But if I slept with a male I thought was female I would feel violated, I’d feel raped. I can’t word it well but I think they are similar situations in a lot of ways, but the sex aspect changes things so much to me.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Basically I think if someone is going to react in a shitty way, they’re gonna react that way no matter when you tell them, and it may be worse if things go further than a casual flirt and exchange of numbers. So if someone is afraid of someone they know knowing, it’s safest to not risk dating them at all.

That’d true, but I feel like you have to get to know someone to know sometimes though. You always the option to just break-up without telling them. If I had felt like my husband, after I got to know him better, was someone who would try to hurt me I had the choice to just break-up with him and not tell him. I didn’t have to allow it to go so far that I had to tell him. We weren’t jumping into bed immediately. 😛

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That’s fair, if you already know the person. I feel like someone could also probably casually start a convo about lgbt or the trans community and see how they react but you’d have to be slick to do that lol

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You probably could today without it seeming too weird! It used to not be talked about as much though.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Why is kissing okay by this logic? That would be sexual assault, no?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t think so. I put kissing there because it can hard to avoid in real life. I just know I’m not that perfect to where I could avoid it with how men often are and I don’t want to say you are terrible if that happens. I did bad things when I was younger where I would meet a guy and seriously make-out, but stop short of sex and not disclose, but I feel like doing that is wrong. I guess maybe you could say no harm was done because the guy never knew, but I still don’t feel right about that looking back.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Disclose. Why? To prevent problems later. If it is a "date" then while it is being planned.

It is a violation of trust to not disclose. All the talk about trans people not wanting to "out" themselves really means they operate in a deceptive mode much of the time. Dating and romance and all that is no place for that kind of deception. No amount of rationalizing or bad comparisons (your next question) will change that.

It is obviously safer to disclose and be up front from the earliest possible point. Anyone who reacts badly before the first date will only react worse if disclosure happens later. That is obvious to anyone who isn't trying to self-sabotage themselves.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

All the talk about trans people not wanting to "out" themselves really means they operate in a deceptive mode much of the time.

Do you feel like passing is deceptive by itself? Just curious...

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think what I typed could be read as implying that, and I did not intend to imply that. I never thought about it because I don't think how someone dresses or "presents" themselves says anything about them other than how they present themselves.

I think the idea of judging someone based on how they "present" is actually a very middle or upper middle class concept, along the lines of "dress for the job you want". Many people wear what they can afford. I went to a high school where the kids were a mix of middle class from one town and working class from another. The towns on their own did not have enough kids to justify a high school, so the poorer kids were bused through one larger town to get to the middle class town where the school was. The girls from the middle class town were generally considered more attractive than the working class ones because the middle class ones could afford better, more stylish clothing that complimented their curves and they were made up better and all that. They had their teeth straightened. Once you grow up a bit you realize that was not about the women but about money. How you are able to "present" is in a large part a luxury. Once you see it as a luxury, it loses a lot of the meaning some might want to attach to it.

But my comment was inspired by user "circling my own void 2" who says that if there were men's women's and trans spaces then, by using the trans space, the trans person would be "outing" themselves. So much for trans pride and all that. Outing themselves is not my concern but it does seem to be theirs, at least until those who insist on the need for sex-segregated spaces to protect women are beaten by the state into submission.

So, what is it about "outing" themselves? The context of "C.M.O.V.2"'s comment was the Wi Spa which has men's, women's, and mixed spaces. A trans person would not be outing themselves in the mixed space, but that does not serve an AGP's purpose, does it? It's not "validating", and based on the woman who was complaining about it, he see footnote 1 got that validation because she said he was semi-erect. The concern about "outing" themselves might be more important to them than women's and little girl's privacy. Or, it's all bs excuses like a bad 1940s cartoon character trying to get at a pie cooling on a window sill.

I have no opinion on "passing". I suspect it is analogous to a mythical Shangri-La that I do not think anyone (even people like Munroe Bergdorf who has had every imaginable surgery) ever arrive at in their own minds. Taking trans people's words at face value though, they seem to see deception as a big part of their navigation through public spaces.

Footnote 1: I'm saying he and not violating anything because no one has confirmed that the person she was talking about did identify as trans (where "identifying as" is a big leap away from "being"). Until she points to a person and says this is who I was talking about, and until we see that the person had been "idtentifying as" trans before that, we only have her words to go by. It was her lived experience. Everyone else is making excuses for the event and assuming it was a trans person. Why? What's the underlying truth about this? That transgender-identifying people are indistinguishable from those of their same sex unless they get surgically altered to change that.

[–]strictly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Should trans people disclose?

They should disclose if sex is planned.

Why or why not?

Because rape is wrong.

And if so, when (and why then)?

Before sex to prevent it being rape.

Is it a form of rape, sexual assault, or violation to not disclose? If so why and at what point (date? Kiss? Sex?)? If not, why not?

If the victim wouldn't have given informed consent it’s rape.

Is not disclosing sex comparable to not disclosing race, religion, marital status etc? Why or why not?

Being of the wrong biological sex is the greatest sexual deal breaker for the majority of people. Race, religion and marital status are less common deal breakers, and when it's a deal beaker these deal breakers are usually of smaller magnitude than being of the wrong sex (i.e I think most monosexuals who are opposed to being with married people would still rather have sex with a married person of the right sex than a unmarried person of the wrong sex if forced to pick). With less common deal breakers I think the onus is on the one with the less common deal breaker to reveal their deal breaker, and I think ignorance can be claimed if the sexual partner simply didn't know about the deal breaker. Ignorance cannot be claimed regarding biological sex being a deal breaker as that is the default, so if we are aware that we typically pass as the opposite sex we should assume no consent exist until we have disclosed our biological sex and the potential sexual partner has given informed consent.

Either way, any time you have reason to suspect the potential sexual partner wouldn’t give informed consent to sex with the facts on the table it’s violation to have sex with that person while withholding the information that would made them say no. When you had such suspicion it’s morally indefensible to claim you had right to violate the victim just because they forgot to mention their deal breaker, nobody deserves being sexually violated, not even forgetful, naive or gullible people. And if the victim feels raped after the perpetrator intentionally sexually violated the victim the violation was obviously traumatic enough to be considered rape. I.e don’t think someone with an identical twin can at night enter the room of the twin’s spouse and have sex the twin’s spouse well aware the twin’s spouse is under the impression it’s their spouse and claim afterwards the twin’s spouse deserved it for forgetting to specify not wanting sex with the wrong twin.

Is it safer for trans people to disclose or not to? Why or why not?

I think it’s usually safer to abstain from rape attempts when you are scared that the potential sexual partner might get violent as an intended rape victim would have more reason to be pissed than someone who is given the chance to give informed consent. Fear of violence is not a valid excuse to rape someone in my opinion, disclosing or raping are not the only two options, breaking it off without neither disclosing nor raping is better when you fear the one you want sex with.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

disclosing or raping are not the only two options, breaking it off without neither disclosing nor raping is better when you fear the one you want sex with.

I probably wouldn’t use the term rape, but this is a super important point. The trans person (usually) has the choice to not go any further if they are afraid of how the other person would react if they disclosed. I had so many occasions where I had to stop everything even though he wanted to and I wanted to because I wasn’t ready to tell him or I didn’t feel safe telling him. Guys may think you are a tease, but it’s better than putting yourself in danger or risking violating another persons boundaries.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I probably wouldn’t use the term rape

I consider the deception method of rape on the same moral level as other methods of rape, it’s one of the most violating things one can do to another person.

Guys may think you are a tease, but it’s better than putting yourself in danger or risking violating another persons boundaries.

I am a lesbian so I have no experience with how sexual situations with men tend to play out. I think if someone is very insistent and wants to fast-track sex then that person needs to take part of the responsibility for not giving sexual partners more of a chance disclose important information so I would consider it one of few mitigating circumstances.

[–]littlebear 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Let’s talk about it, as cordially as possible 😅

Yes.

Why or why not?

Because people have the right to know the sex of their partner.

And if so, when (and why then)?

Before having sex or before dating.

Is it a form of rape, sexual assault, or violation to not disclose? If so why and at what point (date? Kiss? Sex?)? If not, why not?

Yes.

Is not disclosing sex comparable to not disclosing race, religion, marital status etc? Why or why not?

Those aren't sexual orientations so no.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

I think before any sexual contact, we should disclose to possible partners.

However I don’t think it should be required before you at least have enough of a conversation to get the sense whether they would hurt you or potentially do something like expose you.

It’s not rape or sexual assault, but I do think it’s wrong to have sex with someone without disclosing.

It would of course be safer not to disclose but I still don’t think it’s fair. I would put it on par with not telling them you are married. Like it could effect whether they wanted to be with you so you should tell them but it isn’t rape not to.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I disagree about it not being assault and I think it’s more severe than not disclosing marital status but I think we both knew we’d not agree here lol.

I do wonder though, how do you get a sense of whether or not someone will be likely to hurt/expose you? I understand the precaution and I’m not at all saying not to take it, I’m just wondering how you get a feel for that, to know whether it’s safe to go out with them and disclose or to not? I meant to ask Peaking but I forgot lol so I’m asking you (anyone can answer). I can’t begin to imagine how I’d figure that out.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

You get a baseline on their politics, and how violent they might be through general conversation maybe mention some famous trans people and see how they react. Like if you are discussing music mention Laura Jane Grace as a musician you like. Things like that.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (43 children)

I think sexuality is more nuanced than simply being attracted to birth sex. I am attracted to cis men and passing trans men. I don't consider myself bisexual.

I think trans people should disclose for their own safety, and I think disclosure is important for long-term relationships. But I wouldn't go as far as saying it is rape.

[–]strictly 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think sexuality is more nuanced than simply being attracted to birth sex.

Your sexuality is more nuanced than simply being attracted to only one biological sex but current available data shows being of the wrong biological sex is a sexual deal breaker for the majority of people (including me) even though it doesn't happen to be the case for you.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

OK.

[–]littlebear 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is complete nonsense. Only a homophobe could put that string of words together. Only someone so deeply in denial or woefully unable to accept biolgical reality could type a sentence like that. Women-who-identify-as-men are still women. You know it, I know it, and the only reason you keep repeating this twaddle is because, for some unfathomable reason, you want it to be true. But it's not.

If you're attracted to both sexes, you are bisexual. Saying otherwise makes you a homophobe.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And bisexual is not a bad thing, why so often bisexuals are so ashamed to call themselves bisexual?

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I am attracted to cis men and passing trans men. I don't consider myself bisexual.

I'm not one to police what label someone uses, but I'm curious if you've ever had sex with a trans man and how you felt about their naked body. I know for me, as a heterosexual, PIV with male genitals is the major attraction.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

The only trans man I had sex with is post op trans man and it felt great.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

As a whole, less than 5% of transgender men have had procedures to create a phallus (8,32). One survey distinguished between the surgical options, reporting that 3% of transgender men have had phalloplasty and 19% want it in the future, while 2% have had metoidioplasty and 25% want it in the future (7).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314

I'm not accusing you of lying, but if more than 95% of trans men have had no surgery, it seems odd to me that you would not only have found a passing trans men to have sex with, but one who has also had an exceedingly rare surgery. And at quite a young age. I had the impression you were in college?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It could be teacher.

And surgery is not just rare, it is extremely expensive, in young age transmen do not have enough skin to even make it work, so need to take it additionally from other places of body, and in 99% of cases it has complications and need more surgeries than one (on average 17 per transman who is doing surgery). So that was either private college for rich kids, or that transman was a teacher - grown up. And considering GB is fine with grooming children, I guess it would be fine for her to do so.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, in addition to the extreme risk and extreme rarity, it's also a very expensive surgery. And she says he was a student at her school.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I was in college and he attended my school.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (241 children)

No, trans people do not have an ethical duty to disclose their trans status anymore than people of non-obvious racial, ethnic, marital, or religious status have a duty to disclose said status to potential sexual partners. It is up to the person who has such preferences to disclose them, and then trans or other people have an ethical obligation to not sleep with them.

It is safer for trans people to disclose in certain areas and safer for trans people to not disclose in other areas (such as places where being trans is a crime)

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

No, trans people do not have an ethical duty to disclose their trans status anymore than people of non-obvious racial, ethnic, marital, or religious status have a duty to disclose said status to potential sexual partners.

Are you really serious that married people (with & without kids) "do not have an ethical duty to disclose" their marital status to potential sexual partners? Sounds like you support spousal cheating & are entirely on board with all the damage that duplicitous married men over time have done to all the women & gay men they've enticed into being their lovers by hiding or lying about their marital status.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (21 children)

Nope thats their business. If you care about not dating married people then its on you to ask them if they’re married

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

You don’t think it’s deceitful of them to hide their wedding ring, or to lie and say they are divorced?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (18 children)

Lying would be deceitful

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Jesus Christ I really think you’re a long con troll. I have to believe this. Otherwise you’re actually terrifying.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Applying heims logic to anything else is really scary.

It’s ok to secretly remove a condom because she didn’t ask if I kept it on. She shouldn’t assume I won’t ejaculate in her.

It’s okay that I took this money from the wallet on the table because they left it on the table without specifying they don’t want anyone taking money from it.

It’s okay to drop six tabs of acid at the school musical recital because nobody said they’d prefer it if I didn’t.

Screaming for hours in the museum is ok. If visitors didn’t want to hear that they should have checked to make sure no screaming lunatics were in the museum.

I’m a hospital janitor giving out dilaudid. I put on scrubs and nobody asked me if I was a real doctor so it’s their fault they are dead of an overdose, not mine.

The building is on fire and it is the responsibility of the kindergarteners to ensure their preschool isn’t on fire so they can save themselves.

I purposely fed you food you are deathly allergic to. Your fault for not checking to make sure I didn’t add peanuts. Just because I cooked for you specifically you think you can just expect me to disclose my recipe?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That’s actually something I wasn’t even considering. When you’re so quick to make justifications for one, how do you stop it from spiraling into going way too far and justifying the unthinkable? Even making it easier for others to justify things you think are wrong? If trans people become the exception to every rule while they also make it possible to not even have to take a fucking step in the direction of transition to be considered trans, they’re setting us up for trouble. But at least they get validation lol

They get so upset about being associated with pedophilia and sexual assault (understandably so).

So why the fuck do they think it’s a good idea to be so staunchly supportive of putting themselves in a situation where they understand that them being trans can turn something that would’ve otherwise been consensual sex into something that borders (or is-imo) rape. Maybe it’s rude to say, but frankly it’s just fucking stupid to openly be pro “stealthing”. It makes everyone who isn’t a part of their community look at trans people sideways. Even people who otherwise don’t care think not disclosing is fucked up. It’s like they want to make things worse for themselves so they can continue to be the victim. But it can’t be just that because apparently there really are many TW just casually raping people everyday. So it’s not just an argument- it’s a mentality. And it’s a mentality that is encouraged and accepted among their community.

Fucking awful to think about.

And the fact that the lgb community have nothing to do with any of this and have to be dragged into it just adds an extra layer of bullshit

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

why the fuck do they think it’s a good idea to be so staunchly supportive of putting themselves in a situation where they understand that them being trans can turn something that would’ve otherwise been consensual sex into something that borders (or is-imo) rape

My guess? It’s mostly men doing this. Men who knowingly want to rape but fear the risks of being caught too much.

Blur the lines so much that the victim is unsure if she will be attacked for saying a male raped her, unsure of whether or not she was raped just like “what did you drink? What were you wearing?” victim blaming made women unsure if it was their fault because they got drunk or wore a skirt. It blurs the lines between virtue and mindless “be nice” kindergarten politics allowing predators to slip under the radar, or even be obvious and shielded by the trans banner (like than vaid-menon guy who says little girls are kinky

They don’t pushback against pedophiles because they, the pedophiles, are the movement. Too much power was handed over as nicety and muh basic human rights and the predators moved to the top like they often do. The mindless supporters prefer to turn a blind eye and keep playing nice than to admit they supported a dangerous movement.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

No all those other situations have it implicit not to do those things without permission. Although dropping acid is fine

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How the heck is dropping acid fine?!!!

And why is there not an implicit expectation that your romantic or sexual partner be truthful about their biological sex? I mean besides that some trans identified people don't want to hear a no for an answer.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But the implicit lack of attraction to men in a desired partner doesn’t matter if a male person wants to be seen as a woman and have sex with a straight man?

Also, dropping acid around children is fucked. For someone who preaches as though they have moral superiority you sure say stuff indicating a massive lack of moral or care for others.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (7 children)

I mean you’re the group that allies itself with the right in order to take peoples rights away and make them less safe. So I have the same opinion of GC

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Also- why are you even bringing this up when we are literally talking about consent?

Like you support rape (if and only if it’s rape by deception, and then only if the rapist is trans), but sure I guess I’m just as awful for thinking females deserve equality lol

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I disagree with your transphobic definition of rape by deception.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You disagree that not telling a partner the truth about your sex is not telling a partner the truth about your sex?

Interesting. And incredibly convenient for you lmao

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Let me guess, radfems occasionally allying with conservatives says something about radfems in general, but this doesn't say anything about transwomen in general, right?

A recently published study on LGBTQ political leanings finds that transgender individuals are “significantly less liberal” than even cisgender men.

That's how it works in Heimdekledi Land, right?

Radfems sometimes ally with the right but you are the right in many cases, lol.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There’s a drastic difference between attempting to preserve rights you’ve already fought for and trying to take rights away from someone.

Transwomen took rights from women. Women want to take those rights back. We are, once again, not the same.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's TRA who are changing laws and policies behind everyone's back whithout any care about how they could affect anyone else. It's also TRA who constantly send rape and death threaths to dissenting women. It's also TRA who are burning books and suppressing dissenting voices. It's also TRA who are weaponising suicide to get what they want. It's also TRA who have got people fired for stating that sex is real and it does matter. It's also TRA who are keen on ignoring everyone else's boundaries. It's TRA who are advocating for the chemical castration of children.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So taking off the wedding ring and going to a singles event is okay, it’s up to everyone who interacts with them at the event to ask if they are married? Seems stupid.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

I think how it seems to you says more about you then it does the situation

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I'm sure cheaters are going to be completely honest about their married status./s

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (180 children)

“Why or why not?”

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (179 children)

Because people don’t have the right to have their preferences followed without first disclosing those preferences. Do people of jewish heritage have an ethical duty to disclose that heritage to all potential sexual partners on the chance that she might sleep with someone who wouldn’t want to sleep with jewish women?

[–]worried19 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (98 children)

I mean, if I'm dating a man, isn't it reasonable to expect him to have a penis?

It just seems bizarre to say that I should have to announce up front that I want a partner with a penis.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 9 fun -  (97 children)

Trans men do have penises though. You mean to say that you expect a man that you’re interested in to have a penis of a certain type. Also you don’t have to announce it but remember that if you assume and you’re wrong you shouldn’t get mad at the other person, you should just tell them that it isn’t going to work out and leave.

Reasonable is subjective

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

you obviously are not defining "penis" in a way that most people accept.

If, as you say, "reasonable is subjective" then it is perfectly reasonable for someone who subjectively concludes they were misled to be upset. Disclose, be honest and up-front. It will save a lot of grief for everyone.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (94 children)

"Bottom surgery" for trans men is incredibly rare, though. The vast, vast majority of trans men have their normal, unaltered vaginas.

I'm not saying I'd get mad. That's not my style. But it seems like it would be a waste of time for both of us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Doesn’t even matter that bottom surgery is rare. A neophallus is still not a penis lol

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

True, but I'm trying to work with Heim where he or she is at.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair enough lol

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

She

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks. I wasn't sure, and I always feel weird about using "they" if that's not someone's preference.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 8 fun1 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 8 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah it is. You’re not in charge of denoting what is or is not a penis.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know a penis isn’t made out of vagina and arm skin lol

It’s not a penis. It doesn’t look or function like one at all. It’s obviously not a penis lol. We can tell just by looking. We can tell just by hearing a description.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (85 children)

Okay then save time and say you’re only interested in guys with dicks that match whatever your preferences are.

[–]worried19 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (84 children)

So you are saying I have to announce it. I've got a partner anyway, so I hope I'll never have to deal with the dating scene, but I can't imagine needing to specify. Plus if I did write "I only want to date men with dicks" on a dating profile, I'd be accused of bigotry. You really can't win with some of the QT crowd.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (83 children)

I mean your preferences being honored doesn’t mean people won’t judge you.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (82 children)

So I'm basically a bigot who deserves to be judged for not wanting to sexually interact with vaginas?

I'm not attracted to vaginas. I don't want to have sex with someone who has a vagina. I want a man who has a working penis with testicles and that is able to get erect and is able to ejaculate semen. That's a core part of my sexuality right there. Why should I be shamed for that? I'd not saying trans men are bad people. I just don't want to fuck them.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reasonable is subjective

Say that again.

[–]FlanJam 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Because people don’t have the right to have their preferences followed without first disclosing those preferences.

I dont want to dogpile, but it needs to be said: Lack of a 'NO' is not a 'YES"

edit for clarity

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

I mean obviously

[–]FlanJam 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm glad you agree but your original post said otherwise, which is why I pushed back.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

I did not say otherwise

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We can agree to disagree on that. I think your top post speaks for itself.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Okay be as incorrect as you want

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No need to be rude, I haven't been rude to you. If I'm incorrect then correct me, please clarify what you meant in the original post.

edit for brevity

[–]grixitperson 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

If someone says that they like a particular sex, that is the preference. If the other person is not actually that sex, but merely trans, they must disclose.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (37 children)

They have to state that preference though, including the fact that the don't consider trans people to be their identified sexes

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

So why was superstraight such a problem? It was exactly that.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (29 children)

Because the implication was transphobic

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Doing exactly what you suggested is transphobic?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (21 children)

No doing it in a transphobic way is transphobic

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So what’s the non transphobic way to do exactly what you said, lol?

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Stating boundaries is transphobic? Why so many trans people want to have sex with "transphobes", anyway?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

If you state those boundaries in transphobic terms, then yes its transphobic

[–]worried19 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But you implied elsewhere that stating the preference at all means that someone should be judged. If I only want to date men who have penises, I'm supposed to say so, but then I'm also transphobic for saying so? Is there any acceptable way to state that I don't want to have sex with people who have vaginas?

By the way, I'm still curious. You didn't answer me earlier. What is your sexual orientation?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you serious? Lmao

[–]grixitperson 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

No, that's a given.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

What’s a given?

[–]grixitperson 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That a person who expresses preference in a partiular sex, means thsat sex and not an imitation.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

Not everyone agrees with the view that trans people are an imitation of their identified sex. If you feel that they are, then the onus is on you to make that opinion and preference known

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most people don't think you can change sex, though.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Is sexuality a preference, rather than innate, to you?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (32 children)

Both, but in my view sexuality isn’t based on binary sex status, but rather on observable physical traits. No one is attracted to people based on chromosomes for instance, because chromosomes aren’t directly perceivable in everyday life.

Edit: Maybe a biologist with a very niche kink?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

What percentage of people do you think have genitals that correspond to their chromosomes?

My point being- most people’s outer appearance is indicative of their chromosomes. So I think people assume sex correctly something like 99% of the time.

So us not technically being attracted to chromosomes doesn’t mean we aren’t attracted to what chromosomes correlate to the overwhelming majority of the time.

So while I agree that someone can look at a trans person that they don’t know is trans and be attracted to them- it is because they assume they are the sex they appear to be.

However, knowledge that they are the opposite sex than they were assumed to be is easily more than enough to nullify that attraction.

Not just because of stigma or bias or fear or whatever, but because someone can genuinely not feel attracted to or comfortable with sleeping with a trans person. It’s that simple.

I genuinely do not feel comfortable with the idea of sleeping with a trans person, even post op, and my reasoning has nothing to do with my ideology and everything to do with the technicalities and realities of neo genitals.

You can dismiss what I’m saying as bigotry- but even if I am a bigot, i still have a sexual boundary

What justification is there for that boundary not being respected?

I understand you think we should have to ask- but the fact is that trans people make up such a minute portion of the population that I don’t think that’s a reasonable demand. As I said in the other post- if you know something about you (or even something about your preferences sexually) can be a dealbreaker for the overwhelming majority of people (and we can prove this to be the case with trans people), I think it is your responsibility to disclose.

A married man lies about being single and a woman sleeps with him. He was wrong. I think we can all agree on that. We don’t tell the woman she should have asked. She had no reason to. It’s reasonable to assume she thought he was single.

It’s reasonable to assume someone who looks female is female. So if that’s not the case, it’s the responsibility of the male who looks female to be honest. Just as it would be the responsibility of the married man to be honest about being married. He kept being married a secret because he wanted to get laid. The TW would have kept being male a secret for the same reason. Why is it okay for the TW?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (22 children)

You don’t have the right to have unexpressed preferences honored. It takes six seconds to ask if someone is trans, you all can expend the minute amount of effort and talk to a potential romantic partner about your preferences. Because I’m not going to act like transphobia is the default worldview and should be assumed of all people that I meet.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

yo u don’t have the right to have unexpressed preferences honored

That’s some really rapey rhetoric if you think about it.

Like, before sex is someone really supposed to list off every single thing they don’t want, and if they don’t, they lose the right to say no to unwanted anal, or being urinated on, or the right to change their minds about something they had previously agreed to?

Thats absolutely horrifying.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

Its also not what I said. Why would anyone lose the right to say no?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

They lose their right to say no when they aren’t told ahead of time there may be circumstances they’d say no to…

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

When they lose the right to have undisclosed preferences respected.

That’s what you said.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It’s not a preference nor is it bigotry. It’s a sexuality. Sexuality is not transphobic and you calling it so is incredibly homophobic (and whatever the equivalent is for heterosexuals) and rapey.

I’ve never blocked someone but I may have to block you because I really have never seen someone fight so hard to support sexual assault. It’s disturbing.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (10 children)

It’s not sexual assault anymore than its sexual assault for a jewish person to not disclose their jewishness to a potential sexual partner on the chance that they might be an antisemite. The fact that you think it’s different doesn’t mean it is. We don’t have to assume transphobia being acceptable as the default state of affairs. If someone had an issue with certain groups then its up to them to male that preference known

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Actually, let me ask you:

A guy is into tying women up during sex.

He hooks up with some woman, and as they’re having sex, he ties her up. Without asking first. And she gets upset.

Who is wrong?

He’s not raping her. She consented to sex, and was enjoying herself before. She may not have consented to kinky sex, but she didn’t specify that she wasn’t open to kinky sex.

What if she’s okay with being tied up, but she needs to know ahead of time. So she’s not upset that he tied her up, just that she wasn’t expecting it. Is what he did okay now?

Why or why not?

I know tying someone up is not the same as being trans, but your assertion is that being trans isn’t a big deal. And neither is tying someone up during sex, so please indulge me.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’ve already addressed this and you’re just going to ignore it because you can’t counter what I said.

We’re done. Maybe someone else has the energy to watch you justify sexual assault and try to shame us for recongnizing it- I don’t.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

What is a non-obvious racial or ethnic status?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

I mean being jewish or being considered “black” for those whose appearances don’t match what is commonly conceived of as “black” appearances

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

You're advocating a return to the one-drop rule? What do you think race is, Heimdekledi? And being Jewish doesn't mean the same thing to all people. Unlike sex, which we all observe easily and unconsciously, every day of our lives, about people whose racial or ethnic identity may vary based on location.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

No, the discussion was that if because a racist might exists who wouldn’t want to unknowingly sleep with people whom they would consider a part of a group that they hate, should people whom consider themselves black for reasons of ancestry be forced to disclose the identity before every sexual encounter?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’ve asked before, and you never address it so I’ll ask again and see if you do: where are you getting this from?

The discussion about TW and stealth/disclosure is pretty common knowledge. As I kept saying, TW know that there is an incredibly high possibility that any potential partner will not be open to dating them- solely and specifically because they are trans.

Can you disprove this? Can you show us that that’s not the case and the majority of people are actually open to sleeping with trans people?

My point being: you’re making this argument as if Jewish people and black people being commonly considered undesirable sex partners is a thing. As if there’s some debate going on about whether or not it’s gay/straight/acceptable etc to sleep with a Jewish/black woman. There’s not. There’s just fucking not and your refusal to deal with that so you can defend trans people committing rape is astonishing.

If a racist is openly so and a Jewish or lack person knowingly deceived them they’d be wrong. However there is no reason to assume that any/most men they meet will have an aversion to them. There’s not even a reason to assume most people they meet will be racist. The situation is not the same for TW. It’s just not.

A Jewish or black woman has the same genitals as a white woman. A TW does not and can not. For that (and safety) alone, they should disclose. Even if you think the other issues aren’t things that should be considered. You can’t give consent to have sex with genitals you don’t know you’re about to have sex with.

Bottom line- if you know that there is something about you that could reasonably potentially be a deal breaker, it is your responsibility to disclose. If you don’t, you are literally putting your desire for sexual gratification over someone else’s right to informed consent. Even if that’s not outright rape, it’s sexual violation and it’s not okay.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

All I hear is a hypocrite with a double standard.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s not a double standard lol. You have no rebuttal, you have no response, so you act as if what I said isn’t true when you know it is.

People can’t consent to gay sex if they aren’t told they’re about to have gay sex.

People can’t consent to sleeping with a male if they don’t know they are about to sleep with a male.

People can’t consent to sexually interacting with a reconstructed penis if they don’t know they are about to interact sexually with a reconstructed penis.

This is fact.

But I know you don’t give a fuck about facts so just go ahead and continue promoting rape. You’re just going to help peak others. So thanks.

Not for the rape apologia, I hate that- but thanks for doing your part to peak the world lol

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

No, why would they? These hypothetical white skinned people who all identify as black only sleep with white people and need to assume they are all white supremacists until proven otherwise, in the interests of preserving white supremacists' purity?

You think this is a good analogy?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Because the bigotry of some people is not a good enough reason to force people to disclose non-relevant facts about themselves without being prompted

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only comforting thing about hearing "sexual orientation is bigotry" is knowing that it is so deeply, profoundly, inherently stupid as to never gain widespread support.