All: Disclosure and Consent

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

Let’s talk about it, as cordially as possible 😅

Should trans people disclose?

Why or why not?

And if so, when (and why then)?

Is it a form of rape, sexual assault, or violation to not disclose? If so why and at what point (date? Kiss? Sex?)? If not, why not?

Is not disclosing sex comparable to not disclosing race, religion, marital status etc? Why or why not?

Is it safer for trans people to disclose or not to? Why or why not?

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Should trans people disclose?

Yes.

Why or why not?

Because I think people have the right to know if the body part they are going to have in their mouth/vagina or the body part they are going to stick their penis in is real or the result of surgery or if it is artificial. Long story short, I want to know if the fallic thing I am sucking on is made of arm skin or it' s the legitimate thing.

And if so, when (and why then)?

The second there is talk about dating with the prospect of sexual intercourse: there' s no point in wasting your time with someone who doesn' t want to have sex with you, and there is no point in wasting someone else' s time if sex is something you both want and one of you doesn' t want to do it.

Is it a form of rape, sexual assault, or violation to not disclose? If so why and at what point (date? Kiss? Sex?)? If not, why not?

Yes, it is a form of sexual assault and violation because the person who doesn' t know cannot make an informed decision.

Any kind of sexual intercourse is a sexual violation if you don' t disclose your sex. Maybe an argument can be made for kisses, I don' t know if I would make that argument, but I can understand why that can be considered muddy. Anything else is a sexual assault.

Dating? I think it' s a potential waste of time, but it' s not a sexual assault.

Is not disclosing sex comparable to not disclosing race, religion, marital status etc? Why or why not?

No: while I do think that those should be disclosed if they are not obvious or if the situation makes it obvious that it' s important for the other person (for example, if you know the person you are going out with only dates latin people regardless of their skin colour, and you let her think that you are one, you are deceiving them), and that lying about them is deception, the things that are being lied on are not sexual in nature. I don' t have sex with someone through their ethnicity, religious beliefs or marriage, I am having sex with someone through their genitals.

Is it safer for trans people to disclose or not to? Why or why not?

If you are so worried about being attacked for being trans, tell the person you are seeing that you are trans in public so that there are fewer chances that that person might become violent.

I truly do not understand the argument that some trans people make about not wanting to disclose because it' s dangerous and then still sleeping with that person: why would anyone want to have sex with someone they might consider capable of killing them for what they are? Why would anyone want to have sex with someone who could be completely disgusted by them?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

why would anyone want to have sex with someone they might consider capable of killing them for what they are? Why would anyone want to have sex with someone who could be completely disgusted by them?

Keep in mind I am pro disclosure but it’s pretty easy to see that it’s because they are lonely. Some people will be with anyone who will have them even if they are awful or cruel. When you know no one will have you, you can look past a little thing like someone thinking you are disgusting just to be with someone.

But again. Trans people should disclose.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I know it' s because of that, and it' s not necessarily something limited to trans people by the way. I just don' t understand that state of mind, thankfully.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

I think it’s quite common for us really. Like trans women who sleep with chasers even though we are literally just fetish objects to them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I get what you’re saying. I think what I don’t get is why someone would sleep with someone without disclosing (opening themselves up to risk), when they could sleep with a chaser if they’re just feeling lonely? Like I just don’t get taking that chance.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That' s a good point.

Like for many other questions, I think validation plays a strong role.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

It’s hard to tell who people who are in that low of a place do things. But also chasers don’t want post op trans women. They just want dick.

[–]grixitperson 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Always disclose.

[–]FlanJam 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Any half-decent human being would wanna be sure their partner is comfortable and ready before taking the next step. So yes, trans people should disclose if they care about their partners.

[–]worried19 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I foresee this thread potentially turning ugly.

I think they should disclose. It's the ethical thing to do, and also important for personal safety if we're talking about trans women who engage with men. Disclosure should take place before sex, at the very least.

[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, they should disclose. No one is owned sex. Not disclosing information that your (potential) partner would find as a deal breaker is a selfish move. And given that sexual orientation is based on sex, not disclosing your actual sex it's a big deal. It also opens the question on what else would you lie about. Anyway, I don't know how likely those cases actually are. I mean, in most cases people can see what sex someone else is, especially once clothes are off.

When to disclose? Pretty early in the relationship, I think. Personally, I'd say before dating, but that may be because I wouldn't date a stranger, let alone get physically intimate with one.

I never understood the safety worry that trans identified people bring about in this topic? I mean, why would you want to sleep with someone that would kill you? Shouldn't you want to filter out the "transphobes"?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Apparently all “transphobes” have to ask everyone they date/hook up with if they are trans because undisclosed preferences shouldn’t be respected.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

And the second you ask if they are trans, you are a transphobe anyway, because if you refuse to have sex after finding out then you are a bigot. Not to mention asking might be triggering for them anyway.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There’s no winning.

“Genital preferences are okay. Except not really because they’re transphobic. Also gentils preferences only counts if they’re pre op otherwise you’re super transphobic because there’s literally no difference. Also it’s up to you to state ahead of time if you have a preference. But also don’t state ahead of time or ask us ahead of time. And if you do ask, and you’re not interested just be polite about it. You’re still a transphobe though, even if you’re kind about it. Also I get to only want to sleep with cissies if that’s my preference and that’s totes valid. Also…”

[–]wokuspokus 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, for two reasons. Firstly, some people have a genital preference and I don’t think that’s transphobic. Non-disclosure can end up with the other party saying no (and this is an awkward and unpleasant experience for both parties). At the end of the day, if you end up *doing the deed, they’re going to know, so surely it’s best to disclose and have a respectful conversation first.

Secondly, and I think this is more important, SAFETY. Particularly if men are involved. Women don’t want to have to check behind regularly, or avoid going out alone after dark. We’d rather not, but we do it for our safety. Surely disclosure of trans status prior to having sex with someone goes along the same lines.

Is it a form of rape/sexual assault? I’d say it’s a form of sexual assault, as the other party isn’t able to make a fully informed decision (this applies to intercourse only).

Comparable to religion, race etc. Tbh I’m not sure. Think this is highly context dependent. I wouldn’t have sex with someone before I knew them properly. So, I’d be aware if you had fundamentalist religious views by then anyway. (For me, believing strongly in queer theory is a dealbreaker- our core beliefs are in direct competition). I imagine if you do one night stands, what people believe may not be important, so in this context it’s not the same. As for online dating- I don’t really know about it, but I’d say probably disclose before you meet?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s such a good comparison (women checking behind ourselves)! Like no matter what you think about transwomen, it’s a basic safety precaution. I do not understand the argument that it’s somehow safer to not disclose. Even if there was no question of sexual assault/sexual boundaries, the safety factor should be reason alone and it’s so odd to me that some people pretend it isn’t.

Even if they don’t understand that there could be a moral obligation, I cannot comprehend the willingness to jeopardize your safety.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Before sex disclosure is a must. Sexual orientation matters and should be respected. Gay men are not interested in vagina. Lesbians don't do penis. Heterosexual people aren't interested in people who are the same sex. Bisexuals are more likely to be open to it, but they deserve to know beforehand.

After surgery it should still be disclosed. Many people do not want to have anything to do with neo genitals. Surprise neogenitals are likely to be traumatizing for the other person especially if they get up and personal before finding out what they are actually dealing with.

Neovaginas aren't even remotely close to vaginas. Neopenises aren't even remotely close to penises.

Initial dating it should be up to the individual trans person when it makes sense to disclose, but for long term dating the other person should absolutely know. Kissing is a bit of a gray area, but knowing the sexual orientation of the person you are dating can help determine if it's okay or not.

[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

but knowing the sexual orientation of the person you are dating can help determine if it's okay or not.

And here lies the problem. Because many trans people want to interpret other people's sexual orientation to be based on "gender identity" rather than sex.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That and or they think that bottom surgery means you qualify as fitting the sexual orientation of the other person.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. The lack of empathy & even the most basic consideration trans activists and their ilk have for others is a huge problem.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Be careful with this topic! Usually these threads don’t go well. I will lock it if it gets bad.

I feel like dating and kissing (because sometimes it’s hard to avoid) are okay, but it the safest thing would always be to say it in advance. I feel like trans people today meeting people they don’t know on dating apps should just disclose because it’s easy and there isn’t any social risk because you don’t know the person yet (like they can’t out you at work or in a friend group for instance). You should always disclose before sex though. It’s not fun and it hurts, but it has to happen unfortunately. It would be very wrong not too.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I only made the post because I know you or Biologyisreal are usually around lol. I figured if/when it takes a left turn one of you’d shut it down (sorry tho lol)

I think I agree, about dating. I think if you’re talking to someone online, on a dating app, or on the phone or something, you should disclose before meeting. But I understand if someone is out and about and gets hit on not disclosing then and there. though if numbers are exchanged, would it not be better to disclose over the phone, before the date? Genuinely asking, like I just think it’s safer to disclose when you’re not physically there juuust in case but idk

Kissing can be spontaneous so I guess I can see how that could happen without disclosing, but if someone is told before a date then that’s not an issue (obviously people get kissed when they aren’t on a date so this isn’t a perfect solution)

And I obviously agree not disclosing before sex is wrong.

I am curious if you think not disclosing is similar to concealing something else that may be a “dealbreaker”? But I understand if you don’t feel comfortable answering.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

But I understand if someone is out and about and gets hit on not disclosing then and there. though if numbers are exchanged, would it not be better to disclose over the phone, before the date?

I feel like it depends a lot on how you know the person. Like, my husband and I had been coworkers for 3 years before we ever dated. I didn’t know him super well before he asked me out, but if he reacted badly I would have had to worry about him outing me to work or other people as like an act of revenge. I could have decided not to agree to go out with him, because it would have been a risk, but if did that standard I’d never date any guy because it was almost always men I worked with or were in my friend circles who would want to date me. You have to trust someone to give that to them I feel like because they can try to mess up your life. Even if telling him over the phone removes the immediate physical danger, it doesn’t remove other worries like that. If someone isn’t dating someone like that who could hurt them, they should just do it though.

I am curious if you think not disclosing is similar to concealing something else that may be a “dealbreaker”?

I feel like it could be like a (lesser or greater, depending on how they take it, version) of not disclosing marital status. I’ve unfortunately found out I later a guy I was (or thought I was!?) dating was married and I was really upset. There could be women who would be alright with that, but I wasn’t and felt deceived and that he had led me on.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It does seem tricky to date inside your work or social circles. It seems like what’s most fair to the other person in that scenario is such a risk for the trans person. But I still think it’s probably better to tell them before, because if they’ll out you just for finding out someone they were interested in is trans, I feel like they’d do the same or even more if they find out after a date or two. Basically I think if someone is going to react in a shitty way, they’re gonna react that way no matter when you tell them, and it may be worse if things go further than a casual flirt and exchange of numbers. So if someone is afraid of someone they know knowing, it’s safest to not risk dating them at all. Then again- you’d have missed out on your husband. Then again again- your husband obviously isn’t the type of guy who’d react badly lol

I hope that makes sense

As far as the married guy thing- I used that same example before I saw your comment. I don’t think I’d feel violated, but I would feel deceived and guilty (even though I’d have done nothing wrong).

But if I slept with a male I thought was female I would feel violated, I’d feel raped. I can’t word it well but I think they are similar situations in a lot of ways, but the sex aspect changes things so much to me.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Basically I think if someone is going to react in a shitty way, they’re gonna react that way no matter when you tell them, and it may be worse if things go further than a casual flirt and exchange of numbers. So if someone is afraid of someone they know knowing, it’s safest to not risk dating them at all.

That’d true, but I feel like you have to get to know someone to know sometimes though. You always the option to just break-up without telling them. If I had felt like my husband, after I got to know him better, was someone who would try to hurt me I had the choice to just break-up with him and not tell him. I didn’t have to allow it to go so far that I had to tell him. We weren’t jumping into bed immediately. 😛

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That’s fair, if you already know the person. I feel like someone could also probably casually start a convo about lgbt or the trans community and see how they react but you’d have to be slick to do that lol

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You probably could today without it seeming too weird! It used to not be talked about as much though.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Why is kissing okay by this logic? That would be sexual assault, no?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t think so. I put kissing there because it can hard to avoid in real life. I just know I’m not that perfect to where I could avoid it with how men often are and I don’t want to say you are terrible if that happens. I did bad things when I was younger where I would meet a guy and seriously make-out, but stop short of sex and not disclose, but I feel like doing that is wrong. I guess maybe you could say no harm was done because the guy never knew, but I still don’t feel right about that looking back.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Disclose. Why? To prevent problems later. If it is a "date" then while it is being planned.

It is a violation of trust to not disclose. All the talk about trans people not wanting to "out" themselves really means they operate in a deceptive mode much of the time. Dating and romance and all that is no place for that kind of deception. No amount of rationalizing or bad comparisons (your next question) will change that.

It is obviously safer to disclose and be up front from the earliest possible point. Anyone who reacts badly before the first date will only react worse if disclosure happens later. That is obvious to anyone who isn't trying to self-sabotage themselves.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

All the talk about trans people not wanting to "out" themselves really means they operate in a deceptive mode much of the time.

Do you feel like passing is deceptive by itself? Just curious...

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think what I typed could be read as implying that, and I did not intend to imply that. I never thought about it because I don't think how someone dresses or "presents" themselves says anything about them other than how they present themselves.

I think the idea of judging someone based on how they "present" is actually a very middle or upper middle class concept, along the lines of "dress for the job you want". Many people wear what they can afford. I went to a high school where the kids were a mix of middle class from one town and working class from another. The towns on their own did not have enough kids to justify a high school, so the poorer kids were bused through one larger town to get to the middle class town where the school was. The girls from the middle class town were generally considered more attractive than the working class ones because the middle class ones could afford better, more stylish clothing that complimented their curves and they were made up better and all that. They had their teeth straightened. Once you grow up a bit you realize that was not about the women but about money. How you are able to "present" is in a large part a luxury. Once you see it as a luxury, it loses a lot of the meaning some might want to attach to it.

But my comment was inspired by user "circling my own void 2" who says that if there were men's women's and trans spaces then, by using the trans space, the trans person would be "outing" themselves. So much for trans pride and all that. Outing themselves is not my concern but it does seem to be theirs, at least until those who insist on the need for sex-segregated spaces to protect women are beaten by the state into submission.

So, what is it about "outing" themselves? The context of "C.M.O.V.2"'s comment was the Wi Spa which has men's, women's, and mixed spaces. A trans person would not be outing themselves in the mixed space, but that does not serve an AGP's purpose, does it? It's not "validating", and based on the woman who was complaining about it, he see footnote 1 got that validation because she said he was semi-erect. The concern about "outing" themselves might be more important to them than women's and little girl's privacy. Or, it's all bs excuses like a bad 1940s cartoon character trying to get at a pie cooling on a window sill.

I have no opinion on "passing". I suspect it is analogous to a mythical Shangri-La that I do not think anyone (even people like Munroe Bergdorf who has had every imaginable surgery) ever arrive at in their own minds. Taking trans people's words at face value though, they seem to see deception as a big part of their navigation through public spaces.

Footnote 1: I'm saying he and not violating anything because no one has confirmed that the person she was talking about did identify as trans (where "identifying as" is a big leap away from "being"). Until she points to a person and says this is who I was talking about, and until we see that the person had been "idtentifying as" trans before that, we only have her words to go by. It was her lived experience. Everyone else is making excuses for the event and assuming it was a trans person. Why? What's the underlying truth about this? That transgender-identifying people are indistinguishable from those of their same sex unless they get surgically altered to change that.

[–]strictly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Should trans people disclose?

They should disclose if sex is planned.

Why or why not?

Because rape is wrong.

And if so, when (and why then)?

Before sex to prevent it being rape.

Is it a form of rape, sexual assault, or violation to not disclose? If so why and at what point (date? Kiss? Sex?)? If not, why not?

If the victim wouldn't have given informed consent it’s rape.

Is not disclosing sex comparable to not disclosing race, religion, marital status etc? Why or why not?

Being of the wrong biological sex is the greatest sexual deal breaker for the majority of people. Race, religion and marital status are less common deal breakers, and when it's a deal beaker these deal breakers are usually of smaller magnitude than being of the wrong sex (i.e I think most monosexuals who are opposed to being with married people would still rather have sex with a married person of the right sex than a unmarried person of the wrong sex if forced to pick). With less common deal breakers I think the onus is on the one with the less common deal breaker to reveal their deal breaker, and I think ignorance can be claimed if the sexual partner simply didn't know about the deal breaker. Ignorance cannot be claimed regarding biological sex being a deal breaker as that is the default, so if we are aware that we typically pass as the opposite sex we should assume no consent exist until we have disclosed our biological sex and the potential sexual partner has given informed consent.

Either way, any time you have reason to suspect the potential sexual partner wouldn’t give informed consent to sex with the facts on the table it’s violation to have sex with that person while withholding the information that would made them say no. When you had such suspicion it’s morally indefensible to claim you had right to violate the victim just because they forgot to mention their deal breaker, nobody deserves being sexually violated, not even forgetful, naive or gullible people. And if the victim feels raped after the perpetrator intentionally sexually violated the victim the violation was obviously traumatic enough to be considered rape. I.e don’t think someone with an identical twin can at night enter the room of the twin’s spouse and have sex the twin’s spouse well aware the twin’s spouse is under the impression it’s their spouse and claim afterwards the twin’s spouse deserved it for forgetting to specify not wanting sex with the wrong twin.

Is it safer for trans people to disclose or not to? Why or why not?

I think it’s usually safer to abstain from rape attempts when you are scared that the potential sexual partner might get violent as an intended rape victim would have more reason to be pissed than someone who is given the chance to give informed consent. Fear of violence is not a valid excuse to rape someone in my opinion, disclosing or raping are not the only two options, breaking it off without neither disclosing nor raping is better when you fear the one you want sex with.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

disclosing or raping are not the only two options, breaking it off without neither disclosing nor raping is better when you fear the one you want sex with.

I probably wouldn’t use the term rape, but this is a super important point. The trans person (usually) has the choice to not go any further if they are afraid of how the other person would react if they disclosed. I had so many occasions where I had to stop everything even though he wanted to and I wanted to because I wasn’t ready to tell him or I didn’t feel safe telling him. Guys may think you are a tease, but it’s better than putting yourself in danger or risking violating another persons boundaries.

[–]strictly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I probably wouldn’t use the term rape

I consider the deception method of rape on the same moral level as other methods of rape, it’s one of the most violating things one can do to another person.

Guys may think you are a tease, but it’s better than putting yourself in danger or risking violating another persons boundaries.

I am a lesbian so I have no experience with how sexual situations with men tend to play out. I think if someone is very insistent and wants to fast-track sex then that person needs to take part of the responsibility for not giving sexual partners more of a chance disclose important information so I would consider it one of few mitigating circumstances.

[–]littlebear 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Let’s talk about it, as cordially as possible 😅

Yes.

Why or why not?

Because people have the right to know the sex of their partner.

And if so, when (and why then)?

Before having sex or before dating.

Is it a form of rape, sexual assault, or violation to not disclose? If so why and at what point (date? Kiss? Sex?)? If not, why not?

Yes.

Is not disclosing sex comparable to not disclosing race, religion, marital status etc? Why or why not?

Those aren't sexual orientations so no.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

I think before any sexual contact, we should disclose to possible partners.

However I don’t think it should be required before you at least have enough of a conversation to get the sense whether they would hurt you or potentially do something like expose you.

It’s not rape or sexual assault, but I do think it’s wrong to have sex with someone without disclosing.

It would of course be safer not to disclose but I still don’t think it’s fair. I would put it on par with not telling them you are married. Like it could effect whether they wanted to be with you so you should tell them but it isn’t rape not to.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I disagree about it not being assault and I think it’s more severe than not disclosing marital status but I think we both knew we’d not agree here lol.

I do wonder though, how do you get a sense of whether or not someone will be likely to hurt/expose you? I understand the precaution and I’m not at all saying not to take it, I’m just wondering how you get a feel for that, to know whether it’s safe to go out with them and disclose or to not? I meant to ask Peaking but I forgot lol so I’m asking you (anyone can answer). I can’t begin to imagine how I’d figure that out.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

You get a baseline on their politics, and how violent they might be through general conversation maybe mention some famous trans people and see how they react. Like if you are discussing music mention Laura Jane Grace as a musician you like. Things like that.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (43 children)

I think sexuality is more nuanced than simply being attracted to birth sex. I am attracted to cis men and passing trans men. I don't consider myself bisexual.

I think trans people should disclose for their own safety, and I think disclosure is important for long-term relationships. But I wouldn't go as far as saying it is rape.

[–]strictly 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think sexuality is more nuanced than simply being attracted to birth sex.

Your sexuality is more nuanced than simply being attracted to only one biological sex but current available data shows being of the wrong biological sex is a sexual deal breaker for the majority of people (including me) even though it doesn't happen to be the case for you.

[–]littlebear 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is complete nonsense. Only a homophobe could put that string of words together. Only someone so deeply in denial or woefully unable to accept biolgical reality could type a sentence like that. Women-who-identify-as-men are still women. You know it, I know it, and the only reason you keep repeating this twaddle is because, for some unfathomable reason, you want it to be true. But it's not.

If you're attracted to both sexes, you are bisexual. Saying otherwise makes you a homophobe.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And bisexual is not a bad thing, why so often bisexuals are so ashamed to call themselves bisexual?

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I am attracted to cis men and passing trans men. I don't consider myself bisexual.

I'm not one to police what label someone uses, but I'm curious if you've ever had sex with a trans man and how you felt about their naked body. I know for me, as a heterosexual, PIV with male genitals is the major attraction.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

The only trans man I had sex with is post op trans man and it felt great.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

As a whole, less than 5% of transgender men have had procedures to create a phallus (8,32). One survey distinguished between the surgical options, reporting that 3% of transgender men have had phalloplasty and 19% want it in the future, while 2% have had metoidioplasty and 25% want it in the future (7).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314

I'm not accusing you of lying, but if more than 95% of trans men have had no surgery, it seems odd to me that you would not only have found a passing trans men to have sex with, but one who has also had an exceedingly rare surgery. And at quite a young age. I had the impression you were in college?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It could be teacher.

And surgery is not just rare, it is extremely expensive, in young age transmen do not have enough skin to even make it work, so need to take it additionally from other places of body, and in 99% of cases it has complications and need more surgeries than one (on average 17 per transman who is doing surgery). So that was either private college for rich kids, or that transman was a teacher - grown up. And considering GB is fine with grooming children, I guess it would be fine for her to do so.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, in addition to the extreme risk and extreme rarity, it's also a very expensive surgery. And she says he was a student at her school.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I was in college and he attended my school.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (241 children)

No, trans people do not have an ethical duty to disclose their trans status anymore than people of non-obvious racial, ethnic, marital, or religious status have a duty to disclose said status to potential sexual partners. It is up to the person who has such preferences to disclose them, and then trans or other people have an ethical obligation to not sleep with them.

It is safer for trans people to disclose in certain areas and safer for trans people to not disclose in other areas (such as places where being trans is a crime)

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

No, trans people do not have an ethical duty to disclose their trans status anymore than people of non-obvious racial, ethnic, marital, or religious status have a duty to disclose said status to potential sexual partners.

Are you really serious that married people (with & without kids) "do not have an ethical duty to disclose" their marital status to potential sexual partners? Sounds like you support spousal cheating & are entirely on board with all the damage that duplicitous married men over time have done to all the women & gay men they've enticed into being their lovers by hiding or lying about their marital status.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (180 children)

“Why or why not?”

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (179 children)

Because people don’t have the right to have their preferences followed without first disclosing those preferences. Do people of jewish heritage have an ethical duty to disclose that heritage to all potential sexual partners on the chance that she might sleep with someone who wouldn’t want to sleep with jewish women?

[–]worried19 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (98 children)

I mean, if I'm dating a man, isn't it reasonable to expect him to have a penis?

It just seems bizarre to say that I should have to announce up front that I want a partner with a penis.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 9 fun -  (97 children)

Trans men do have penises though. You mean to say that you expect a man that you’re interested in to have a penis of a certain type. Also you don’t have to announce it but remember that if you assume and you’re wrong you shouldn’t get mad at the other person, you should just tell them that it isn’t going to work out and leave.

Reasonable is subjective

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

you obviously are not defining "penis" in a way that most people accept.

If, as you say, "reasonable is subjective" then it is perfectly reasonable for someone who subjectively concludes they were misled to be upset. Disclose, be honest and up-front. It will save a lot of grief for everyone.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (94 children)

"Bottom surgery" for trans men is incredibly rare, though. The vast, vast majority of trans men have their normal, unaltered vaginas.

I'm not saying I'd get mad. That's not my style. But it seems like it would be a waste of time for both of us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Doesn’t even matter that bottom surgery is rare. A neophallus is still not a penis lol

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

True, but I'm trying to work with Heim where he or she is at.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair enough lol

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 8 fun3 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

She

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks. I wasn't sure, and I always feel weird about using "they" if that's not someone's preference.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 8 fun1 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 8 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah it is. You’re not in charge of denoting what is or is not a penis.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know a penis isn’t made out of vagina and arm skin lol

It’s not a penis. It doesn’t look or function like one at all. It’s obviously not a penis lol. We can tell just by looking. We can tell just by hearing a description.

load more comments (86 replies)

    [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Reasonable is subjective

    Say that again.

    [–]FlanJam 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    Because people don’t have the right to have their preferences followed without first disclosing those preferences.

    I dont want to dogpile, but it needs to be said: Lack of a 'NO' is not a 'YES"

    edit for clarity

    [–]grixitperson 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

    If someone says that they like a particular sex, that is the preference. If the other person is not actually that sex, but merely trans, they must disclose.

    [–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (37 children)

    They have to state that preference though, including the fact that the don't consider trans people to be their identified sexes

    [–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

    So why was superstraight such a problem? It was exactly that.

    [–]grixitperson 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    No, that's a given.

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

    Is sexuality a preference, rather than innate, to you?

    [–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (32 children)

    Both, but in my view sexuality isn’t based on binary sex status, but rather on observable physical traits. No one is attracted to people based on chromosomes for instance, because chromosomes aren’t directly perceivable in everyday life.

    Edit: Maybe a biologist with a very niche kink?

    [–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

    What percentage of people do you think have genitals that correspond to their chromosomes?

    My point being- most people’s outer appearance is indicative of their chromosomes. So I think people assume sex correctly something like 99% of the time.

    So us not technically being attracted to chromosomes doesn’t mean we aren’t attracted to what chromosomes correlate to the overwhelming majority of the time.

    So while I agree that someone can look at a trans person that they don’t know is trans and be attracted to them- it is because they assume they are the sex they appear to be.

    However, knowledge that they are the opposite sex than they were assumed to be is easily more than enough to nullify that attraction.

    Not just because of stigma or bias or fear or whatever, but because someone can genuinely not feel attracted to or comfortable with sleeping with a trans person. It’s that simple.

    I genuinely do not feel comfortable with the idea of sleeping with a trans person, even post op, and my reasoning has nothing to do with my ideology and everything to do with the technicalities and realities of neo genitals.

    You can dismiss what I’m saying as bigotry- but even if I am a bigot, i still have a sexual boundary

    What justification is there for that boundary not being respected?

    I understand you think we should have to ask- but the fact is that trans people make up such a minute portion of the population that I don’t think that’s a reasonable demand. As I said in the other post- if you know something about you (or even something about your preferences sexually) can be a dealbreaker for the overwhelming majority of people (and we can prove this to be the case with trans people), I think it is your responsibility to disclose.

    A married man lies about being single and a woman sleeps with him. He was wrong. I think we can all agree on that. We don’t tell the woman she should have asked. She had no reason to. It’s reasonable to assume she thought he was single.

    It’s reasonable to assume someone who looks female is female. So if that’s not the case, it’s the responsibility of the male who looks female to be honest. Just as it would be the responsibility of the married man to be honest about being married. He kept being married a secret because he wanted to get laid. The TW would have kept being male a secret for the same reason. Why is it okay for the TW?

    [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    What is a non-obvious racial or ethnic status?