GC: What are "sex-based" rights?

submitted 2 years ago by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 2 years ago (10 children)

[deleted]

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun - 2 years ago (9 children)

None of your anecdotes suggest their ‘birth’ sex was known.

One example I gave was of James Gardner, a newscaster in Victoria, Canada, who had been reading the news as Sheila Gardner for almost three decades before he transitioned at 54. His birth sex was obviously known. Yet as soon as he began hosting as a man, he stopped getting as many calls from men pointing out tiny errors.

Even if this were true, it would be evidence against your position. But most murders of transwomen are not hate crimes.

There have been numerous cases of trans people forcefully dragged out of a bathroom and beaten up for using it. Those are absolutely hate crimes and an experience exclusively to trans and GNC people.

https://news.berkeley.edu/2021/06/25/why-is-anti-trans-violence-on-the-rise-in-america/

https://www.wkyc.com/amp/article/news/investigations/3news-investigates-violence-against-transgender-people-is-on-the-rise-across-the-united-states-and-ohio/95-64318e68-445e-4538-b06e-761068db6ff8

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiewareham/2020/10/02/30-trans-woman-have-now-been-violently-murdered-in-america-in-2020/?sh=2942b67664a4

Transmen aren’t a monolith.

I never said trans men were a monolith. But in general when you try to be an ally to a marginalized group, you have to listen to what the majority of people in the group say. For instance, most POC thought Trump is racist. There are some POC who support Trump, does that make Trump not racist? There were gay people who opposed legalizing gay marriage. The majority of trans men said they are not always treated as women and that they did not transition to escape sexism. The majority of GCs say otherwise. That is talking over trans men.

https://www.ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/28480/some-thoughts-on-tifs

https://www.ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/17757/i-found-this-comment-kinda-interesting-it-s-a-tif-who-dislikes-the-whole-pregnan/5bb80500-b154-443d-9ddb-207553348eda

https://www.ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/15805/tif-feels-unsafe-because-she-s-about-to-be-kicked-out-of-the-wait-for-it-female/4747c583-dd70-4658-bb8a-5b2b4ad0801e#comment-4747c583-dd70-4658-bb8a-5b2b4ad0801e

https://www.ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/35003/is-there-any-way-to-convince-tifs

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/38994/unapologetically-themself-nonbinary-olympian-shares-powerful-message/3fff736c-ecff-44de-8b07-cdfcb9996583#comment-3fff736c-ecff-44de-8b07-cdfcb9996583

https://www.ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/3197/a-trans-character-that-made-me-mad-even-as-a-libfem/73e3e5ca-e4fb-43c2-b80e-e34b4ffdafee#comment-73e3e5ca-e4fb-43c2-b80e-e34b4ffdafee

https://www.ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/30275/why-on-earth-would-a-tif-want-to-experience-pregnancy-and-childbirth-wouldn-t-it/06acd210-aed4-48f6-95d1-2206fb510ae1

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/6lul/doctor_who_chops_off_tifs_breasts_calls_herself/pgqs

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/5v9g/explanation_of_nonbinary_thats_not_sexist/mtcv

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/5yas/more_proof_that_nb_is_the_woke_flavor_of_im_not/n5ze

You have still not addressed that you grouped transmen in with women instead of men.

I meant to group them with men.

They don’t. I think all biased personal opinions carry more or less equal weight. You need to look at both context and reliable data as well.

This is why I said we need to do the bare minimum to make sure people don't regret their transition.

Repeating your original position without addressing my counterargument is poor debating and a waste of everyone’s time, including yours.

I agree research on detransition is suppressed which is unfortunate but we have a study that concluded detransitioning is rare so it's safe to assume most trans people are happy with their choices.

[+][deleted] 2 years ago (8 children)

[deleted]

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun - 2 years ago (7 children)

So you scoured the internet and were only able to find one example of a transman being treated as a man even when their birth sex was known. All your other examples either don’t support the idea that 'gender presentation' trumps actual sex in regards to how someone is treated or were not applicable, and even you accidentally thought of transmen as women and had to correct yourself—I think that says it all.

There are other examples of trans men being treated as men when their birth sex was known. For instance, men who continue working at the same place after transition report being treated like men.

You are shifting the goalposts (you made a claim about murder), and I don’t know what experiences ‘[exclusive] to trans and GNC people’ are supposed to say about the current subject anyway.

I'm saying visibly trans women and passing trans women are not treated like men.

The majority of the evidence that you pulled from personal testimonies you found on the internet does not support your position, though.

I pulled out evidence from reputable news sources and they interviewed multiple actual trans men. Most of my information about trans men comes from actual trans men. I'm listening to them.

Anyway, where do GCs get their evidence about trans men? Everything they say about trans men contradict what actual trans men say.

So I looked into your source—the study was promoted specifically to people who currently identify as trans, through trans activist organisations. It is not representative of the population of people who identified as trans at any point in their lives. That’s like when researchers ‘proved’ bisexuality in men didn’t exist by recruiting participants for their study on male bisexuality from the gay community specifically. You need to raise your standard of evidence.

Fair point, but I don't think detransition is as common as GCs make it out to be. I also don't think most people regret their transition. I do wish we were more open to studying detransition, and what factors lead people to regret their choice or what people shouldn't transition.

[+][deleted] 2 years ago (2 children)

[deleted]

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun - 2 years ago (1 child)

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun - 2 years ago (3 children)

For instance, men who continue working at the same place after transition report being treated like men.

Being treated as a man is being treated as being an adult human biological male. I doubt the coworkers starting advising the man-identifying female to start using condoms to prevent impregnating female sexual partners or said birth control wouldn’t be needed in case this man-identifying female was into males. They probably didn’t imagine this man-identifying female anatomically different from the man-identifying female’s actual anatomy. Either the coworkers were biased toward biological females who weren't taking testosterone, or in case this man-identifying female started dressing or acting differently after taking testosterone then the treatment difference was probably based on that. Being treated as a masculine or masculinized female is not the same thing as being treated as biological male, which is what we refer to with being treated as a man.

I'm saying visibly trans women and passing trans women are not treated like men.

Visibly male woman-identifying males are treated as the subgroup of men (adult human biological males) they are. Biological females who hook up with known woman-identifying males are told to use birth control, biological females who hook up with biological females aren't told that. Being treated as a feminine or feminized male is not the same thing as being treated as a adult human biological female, which is what we refer to with being treated as a woman.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun - 2 years ago (0 children)

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun - 2 years ago* (1 child)

Being treated as a man is being treated as being an adult human biological male. I doubt the coworkers starting advising the man-identifying female to start using condoms to prevent impregnating female sexual partners or said birth control wouldn’t be needed in case this man-identifying female was into males.

When I said "treated like men" I meant being treated the way men are typically treated in society. They are less likely to be sexually harassed, they are taken more seriously at work, are paid higher wages and other men feel comfortable saying sexist things about women to them.

Visibly male woman-identifying males are treated as the subgroup of men (adult human biological males) they are.

There is no such thing as "woman-identifying males". They are women and if they don't pass they are treated like women. For instance, Lauren Jackson was punched in the jaw over 10 times because she was using the women's restroom. I don't know any cis man harassed for using the restroom.

https://katu.com/news/local/man-who-beat-transgender-woman-in-bathroom-charged-with-bias-crime

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 2 years ago (0 children)

When I said "treated like men" I meant being treated the way men are typically treated in society. They are less likely to be sexually harassed, they are taken more seriously at work, are paid higher wages and other men feel comfortable saying sexist things about women to them.

If a feminine gay man gets sexually harassed, is talked down to and paid less for being gay and feminine, is he treated like a woman? If a butch lesbian is treated seriously but men are openly sexist around her and wants her to join in with the sexist talk, is she treated like a man?

There is no such thing as "woman-identifying males".

You don’t think there exist biological males who identify as women? Are biological males like Contapoints just lying about their gender identities then?

They are women

Adult humans of the male reproductive sex meet the definition of men, not women. But as you obviously refer to something else with the letter combination "woman" it would be helpful if you would translate it into with words we both agree about the meaning. Is it a gender identity (i.e a large percentage of population would be neither men nor women as they lack gender identities), is it a hormone level (i.e pre HRT you would call man-identifying females women) or is it femininity (i.e only feminine people are women) or something else?

if they don't pass they are treated like women

You have complained about woman-identifying males being seen threatening, even in your eyes, is that something you see as woman treatment?

For instance, Lauren Jackson was punched in the jaw over 10 times because she was using the women's restroom.

Again, even in your eyes, is being punched in the jaw for using the women's restroom "woman treatment"? Is that how you think women are typically treated for using the female bathroom? This man-looking biological male was punched for being seen as man, even the your linked link states that as the reason.

I don't know any cis man harassed for using the restroom.

How many of them are regularly using the female restroom like the man-looking biological male in your link?

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