How can you tell if someone is expressing their actual gender identity?

submitted by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

How can you tell if someone is expressing their gender identity or just pretending? If we have to take everyone at their word for gender what their gender identities are, then how can we tell if someone is making fun of trans people or not?

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t believe in gender identities at all. Imo there’s people who simply prefer things not societally designated to their sex like gnc people and transexual people, there’s obvious fetishists who get sexual gratification from performing gender roles not assigned to their sex like AGPS and “fujoshi”, and there are youth misguided by the current identity fixation and simply wanting to be special and a part of something, like the ROGD kids all over Twitter.

It might sound jaded but I don’t take anybody at their word on anything, really. People are constantly showing us what they really believe and it’s often at odds with what they say. Seems to be more true of large groups.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right, like in this context it's just being. The 'identity' part of gender identity seems like a really unfortunate misnomer, or maybe not misnomer but something very specifically defined differently than the way it may be more commonly used. I just read this old paper from 1977 wherein the author attempts to define it:

masculinity and femininity represent two ends of a distribution, and they refer to this distribution as gender identity. Gender identity, then, refers to the self-awareness of one's role as either a man or a woman and is apparent in everything a person does to indicate that he or she is male or female.

The important point here is that we are not considering masculinity or femininity as unitary concepts. but rather as characteristics which a person may have varying amounts of. Also, gender identity includes a wide range of behaviors, besides sexual preferences.

The concept seems like just an attempt at interpretation to explain behavior, not what or who a person actually is, even if they believe they are the other sex (or species or race or nationality or whatever else a person may 'identify' as). A person could think of themselves in a certain way, but that seems like a different kind of identity than some (un)official identity.

It might sound jaded but I don’t take anybody at their word on anything, really. People are constantly showing us what they really believe and it’s often at odds with what they say. Seems to be more true of large groups.

I don't think that sounds jaded at all, I think that's a natural way to protect oneself. 'Actions speak louder than words' and it seems easiest to catch people lying when their actions eventually betray their words. That's interesting you note that commonly amongst large groups, I hadn't noticed that but definitely something like religious groups or governmental authorities seems to definitely display that.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Because gender identity is entirely subjective, it is not possible to determine whether reports of gender identity are true or false.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

All such reports must all automatically be true then, no?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, they are either true or false. Furthermore, they could be false but the reporter could believe them to be true. There are those who do not understand their gender identity and genuinely believe themselves to be trans when they are not. There are also those who repress their trans identity and believe themselves to cis. Not only do we not know whether someone is being honest, we do not know how much thought they have put into the matter. People are terrible at understanding themselves. Psychotherapy can help, but work is hard and people are frightened and/or lazy.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Great question. How can you tell if someone is actually feeling God's presence or they're just misinterpreting the feeling you get when you have a particularly good day? How can you tell if someone legitimately has an objective gender identity or they're just happier conforming to opposite sex stereotypes? Is it the Holy Ghost warning you not to do something or indigestion? Does someone genuinely feel like a boy inside or are they just into shit that boys are stereotypically into? Did the secret work and you got what you always wanted by willing it to be or did you just get lucky?

The base feelings stay the same, but the conclusions drawn from those feelings can be all over the place. I feel happy while at church therefore God exists. I feel euphoric when I attempt to look like the opposite sex therefore I actually am the opposite sex on the inside somehow. The thing I prayed for happened therefore God answers prayers. See how the conclusion doesn't quite follow in these scenarios? I'd welcome a steel man from the QT side.

Gender Identity as something independent from subjective human belief is unprovable. People believe in weird shit. Gender identity is one of those things and should be treated with the same level of reverence as any other faith based belief, which is none at all.

This questions also opens a lot of other questions. What is gender identity exactly? Can you measure it? How is it even possible for anyone to actually know what it feels like to be the opposite sex? What about people who don't have a gender identity? Should gender atheists be obligated by law to play along?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Great answer--I'll give it a shot! Love The Secret reference, too 😁

An attempt: Facts over feelings, Pen! But more seriously, the conclusion is what matters most anyways because we don't really know if the base feelings are really the same amongst everyone. My feelings of happiness could feel totally different from your feelings of happiness, so drawing differing conclusions makes more sense than everyone reaching the same conclusion. Because we reach different conclusions, we must have different feelings, right? That's the only way that there would be trans people is because they must feel differently, otherwise everyone really would all be trans or there would be no trans people at all. In fact, that's why there are so many genders and sexualities that we are still discovering. How could that happen if people truly were feeling the same?

[–]Penultimate_Penance 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Because we reach different conclusions, we must have different feelings, right?"

Not necessarily. Technically if we get really philosophical here it is impossible to know if most people who aren't color blind are experiencing the same green as everyone else, or if varying degrees of happiness feel the same to people, but practically speaking there is a common reality where happiness, sadness and other feelings have a consistent definitions/descriptions between people that we can safely assume a shared experience/reality, much in the same way people who aren't color blind can easily recognize the color green and people can easily recognize and relate to standard human emotions like happiness, sadness, anger, etc.

Mormons describing the holy ghost. I grew up Mormon and I've lost count of the ways church members have described and interpreted their feelings and concluded it was the holy ghost. Their descriptions and definitions of the holy ghost and how they know it exists are as vague, and sometimes as contradictory as queer theorists describing gender identity/feeling like a woman.

I have felt ecstatically happy while hiking, while playing my instrument, while playing sports and just in general while completely getting lost in the moment. Many church members have described this feeling as proof of god's existence and proof that the Lds church is the one true church. I did not.

I have felt a sense of foreboding, that something was off and trusted my gut to avoid what would have been really bad situations that I learned about later. I concluded that it was instinct. Members of the Mormon church often interpret this feeling as a warning from the holy ghost and proof that God is looking out for them. I could go on any feeling you can imagine from indigestion, to a profound sense of happiness has been used by church members as proof that there really is a holy ghost out there. (Mormon churches have a once a month testimony meeting that I've attended for 2 decades, so you bet I heard an absurd amount of testimonies.)

When a man says, "I feel like a woman" I can't help, but think about the Mormons who say "I feel the holy ghost". Who knows there might be a holy ghost out there working it's voodoo, but it is an unproven conclusion. Members of the 100s of other religious denominations cite the same feelings as proof that their church is the one true church. They can't all simultaneously be right, but they can all be wrong.

Men who claim to be women cite all kinds of different feelings as proof that they have a mismatched gender soul. I like quite a few things that are considered masculine, but I did not conclude that, because I enjoyed said masculine activities that therefore I am a man. I'm a woman who happens to have masculine interests, much in the same way a man can happen to have feminine coded interests and personality traits. Concluding that they are actually the opposite sex, because of those feelings is quite a reach to say the least. It is impossible to know what it actually feels like to physically exist in the opposite sex's body. A woman will never know what it feels like to exist in a male body and vice versa.

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's no way to know for sure. But I think if someone goes thru all the trouble of transitioning medically, its more likely that they are being honest (but even then you can't be sure, we know detransition is a thing). This isn't a problem for my position because if someone has a personal sense of "gender identity", then that's their personal thing. It shouldn't be imposed on people around them.

It does seem to be a problem for QT because they put a lot of weight on gender identity. So there's technically nothing stopping someone from manipulating "gender identity" for malicious reasons.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No one is expressing their actual gender identity because there is no such thing.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I would think we would all have to assume everyone's actions are genuine, but it's hard for me to believe that's really the case. Otherwise the implication seems like an end to all transphobia--the solution all along was to just have everyone say they're trans, because we've accepted the responsibility of unconditional, radical acceptance of all, and all expressions of transphobia would be committed by trans people themselves. That would therefore be a manifestation of internalized transphobia, requiring a compassionate approach due to lack of bigotry--everyone is trans and most people are expressing internalized transphobia, evidently all lashing out at each other because we are all trans. Instead of cancelling people and taking out anger on others, which seems even more transphobic because a trans person is getting angry at and trying to cancel another trans person for expressing internalized transphobia instead of trying to help them overcome their internalized transphobia, which seems highly insensitive and cruel.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't understand what you're trying to say. How does assuming everyone's actions are genuine imply that everyone should say they're trans? How is it possible for everyone to be trans and for transphobia (however that's defined) to be a result of self-hatred?

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The problem is accepting that everyone is who they say they are. I'm trying to sort of point out that it's impossible to determine by that logic whether someone is being genuinely transphobic or not, because if someone says 'trans women are not women' but also says they identify in some way differently than how they were 'assigned' their sex, then that would make them trans, and therefore they would not be exhibiting transphobia but rather internalized transphobia. When trans people exhibit transphobia or what is perceived as such is usually interpreted to be a manifestation of internalized transphobia and warrants pity, but when non-trans people exhibit or say the exact same things, then that is just plain transphobia and warrants aggressive action against 'bigots'.

I'm sorry for the confusing example, I was sort trying to show how the basic logic of blindly accepting whoever says they are trans that they indeed are, that we can all be trans and therefore no one would be expressing just transphobia, it would be internalized and would warrant more compassionate treatment rather than just hostility and aggression, threatening to cancel bigots, etc.

Hopefully this clarified my point and didn't just make it worse!

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When trans people exhibit transphobia or what is perceived as such is usually interpreted to be a manifestation of internalized transphobia and warrants pity, but when non-trans people exhibit or say the exact same things, then that is just plain transphobia and warrants aggressive action against 'bigots'.

I mean yeah, but that makes sense. The idea is that a member of an oppressed group isn't pushing an ideology to further a supremacist hierarchy in their favour, but are rather victims of their own oppression telling them they deserve their place, and brainwashed into supporting an ideology that treats them as subhuman because the dominant group says so. Obviously I disagree with the notion that trans people are oppressed by people not using whatever pronouns they tell them to, but if you do assume they are, then it makes sense to treat internalised and external bigotry differently, and that's consistent with other progressive movements.

I was sort trying to show how the basic logic of blindly accepting whoever says they are trans that they indeed are, that we can all be trans

We're not gonna get everyone saying they're trans, though, and even if they do, it wouldn't really change what the movement sees as bigoted since the concept of internalised bigotry is already known. The trans movement already instantly accepts anyone's gender regardless of anything and doesn't question it one bit. Even a rapist murderer targeting women gets treated as an actual woman the second he announces his new pronouns (and yes, there have been several cases of this). One's gender must not be questioned, ever, so it's unsurprising that how one feels about trans people or about women or gender roles or the patriarchy etc. has no bearing on anything.

Or are you saying that the mere possibility of someone being trans means we should consider their views possibly motivated by internalised transphobia rather than external? Honestly, I don't think that matters any more than it does in, say, the case of closeted homosexuals being bigots towards themselves.

The real problem with taking (specifically male) trans people on their word is that "there is no one way to be trans", and yet these people supposedly deserve the same protections and treatment that actual women do, even if their idea of being a woman is rooted in jerking off to sissy porn and wearing panties.

[–]ThatsmeisabelleUncompromISAble 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Imo gender identity as a concept in academics and identifying as in gender identity are distinctly different.

A gender identity as in a part of conciousness/subconciousness creating strain on the psyche and pushing people to transition is kind of testable to some extend by therapy and diagnose while the identification itself is not testable at all unless you mean testing if people believe the identification signifier they chose themselves based on said strain. Its a disorder and gender identity tries to give us a frame of reference, a concious like concept we dont know enough about yet, but helps us theorize.

Imo identifying as x or y is just a personal completion of this strain and transition routes we take and fairly nebulous.

I myself identify for practical and utility purposes, consistency and a nice time in society because of how the body i am now happier about looks after transition. While i respect people's identities, imo it would be socially stupid for me to identify as either a man or non binary and cause all kinds of problems i have no time or energy for.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Imo gender identity as a concept in academic and identiying as in gender identity are distinctly different.

I wholeheartedly agree with that. The word 'identity' is what seems to obfuscate things and make it appear as if those were the same things.

Imo identifying as x or y is just a personal completion of this strain and transition routes we take and fairly nebulous.

Is that a formal identity then that one takes on? Like something one would announce or disclose?

I myself identify for practical and utility purposes, consistency and a nice time in society because of how the body i am now happier about looks after transition. While i respect people's identities, imo it would be socially stupid for me to identify as either a man or non binary and cause all kinds of problems i have no time or energy for.

That's interesting, so you don't formally identify as anything? I believe you said you were MTF in another comment, I'm curious how you conceptualize yourself if that's the case. It seems like actually forgoing a formal identity or making claims to one would be the most honest approach, like just letting one's actions speak for themselves like Houseplant touched on.

[–]ThatsmeisabelleUncompromISAble 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is that a formal identity then that one takes on? Like something one would announce or disclose?

I would say that while gender identity may push people to transition, there is no direct correlation between transition wishes and the identity people announce, which makes the identity more nebulous. A non binary person and a trans man could have the same transition path for example(which would seem to suggest the same gender id) but identify differently in society

That's interesting, so you don't formally identify as anything? I believe you said you were MTF in another comment, I'm curious how you conceptualize yourself if that's the case. It seems like actually forgoing a formal identity or making claims to one would be the most honest approach, like just letting one's actions speak for themselves like Houseplant touched on.

I identify only as myself intrinsicly but do ofcourse use labels to communicate within society. Just a body with labels. Mtf seems to communicate my transition proces, woman i use because thats what expected/ the perception in general with my body in day to day life and has the least friction. I value consistency and being able to just live my life in society, so i do use and defend the labels i use.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe I don't understand the question, but to me it sounds a lot like: how can I know wether or not someone is lying.

You can't tbh. At least not with 100% certainty. Best we can do is implement processes to evaluate someone's claim. But these evaluations should always be from the perspective of believing the claimant but helping them explore alternatives or feelings they may not have considered before.

In a public setting a think we have to take someone at their word until their actions either prove their word hollow or there is other evidence to demonstrate the same.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can't. "Gender identity" is only based on what someone feels about their sexed body. There is not an external way to tell someone's "gender identity" other than taking their word for it, and that is why is a bad idea to write it into law.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I assume very few people are pretending about their gender identity for kicks. I think the vast majority honestly believe it (or want to believe it), but what they're feeling is merely an emotion. It's a subjective experience, not an objective one. I do believe that many if not most people who claim a gender identity in our current society (especially natal females) are reacting to the culture, not reacting to anything they were born with or that is intrinsic to them as a human being. Most of their distress is social and cultural, not biological in nature.