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QT: Why do you care so much if other people believe your chosen "identities"?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

You can change the laws so you can "identify" however you want. You can rewrite history so to convice everyone that there has always been people who identify as trans. You can rewrite biology and medicine books so they say sex is a spectrum and that is so complicated that no one can tell which sex you are. You can change words meanings all the time so to make sex something unspeakable. You can get disenters fired, censored or arrested. You could do all that and yet you won't ever be able to change the sex you were born. And people will still know that you're not the sex you say you are, even if they won't tell you the truth to your face due to "politeness" or fear.

If you're really so confident in you identity as you claim, why do you need so much external validation? I've a deep voice for a woman and, as a result, I've been mistaken for a boy on the phone some times. I've been mistaken for a man on the internet, too. And yet I haven't had an identity crisis because of said experiences because I know I'm a woman.

So, why is it so important for you that other people accept your identities?

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[–]BiologyIsReal[S,M] [score hidden] stickied comment (1 child)

The conversation aroun circling's comment on assisting rapist ENDS RIGHT NOW. Any further will be deleted. Circling, I'm warning you. If you say anything more on this, including saying that you didn't say that or you're not allowed to talk about this, I'll ban you.

Edit: Thread closed because it has run out its course.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I was really hoping to see their answers to this. It's like team QT only responds when shamed into it.

I suspect the publicly disseminated rationalization we're expected to believe is "we'll kill ourselves if everyone does not play along". And, I believe the the actual answer is because without everyone cheering them on in the lie, they find it more difficult to keep the act up.

As you describe, you are not acting. When people misread you, it is not an existential crisis. But for those who wrap their existence in a lie as a form of a shell, it is. I think it is the same dynamic when abuse of power is called out. Those who wrap their position of power around themselves as if it is who they are, and hiding their real selves, will not take to kindly to people confronting them in any way.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Perhaps this isn't what you are referring to, and I do sincerely apologize if it isn't, but it's so important to me that others see me as a woman so I can blend in and not be harassed like effeminate gay men are in my experience. It is mostly about practicality--and this is mostly referring to strangers or anyone who doesn't know my history. I don't really care if people who know my history see me as a woman or not, because that's never really been an issue. I was generally treated poorly when I was a young adult prior to transitioning, just a continuation of how I had always been treated, so that's what my mind snaps back to and I get a bit panic-y at the thought of being perceived as a man by everyone.

Additionally, I think before it was also so important to me that people see me as female due to the nature of my condition and delusion (I know the sub discourages using that word, and I am really sorry if that bothers anyone, I can change/delete it if it's inappropriate or too hurtful--but that is how I've come to understand this condition for myself, I am not suggesting at all that trans people are delusional, just me). Believing I was, and later that I was supposed to be the opposite sex played such a big role in how my personality developed that I literally felt crazy living with a body that didn't develop correctly (as I saw it). It doesn't feel good to feel crazy, like you are genuinely insane, so being read and acknowledged as a female made me feel better because it made me feel less crazy, like living this way seemed 'correct'.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No need to apologize. Although that was not exactly what I was talking about. I get the practicality of "passing" to avoid being hurt even if I disagree with this strategy. I was thinking more about things like the so called "inclusive language" and other things everyone is forced to accept even if nobody really believes it like "sex is a spectrum" or "you can only know someone's sex by looking at their genitals".

We're suppused to believe all that stuff is for trans idenitified people wellbeing even if those things have nothing to do with safety.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, thank you, I sort of suspected but thought I'd share as a QT substitute 😅

That said, it almost seems like it's an issue about being reminded of one's reality, having a lack of control, or maybe both. For some, perhaps transition is an expression of someone trying to control their life, or something/someone in their life, and every facet of the whole experience is about some attempt at control of some kind. One really would have control over their transition up to the point of having to interact with others, which is where the problem seems to be for some people.

And I do believe more and more that a root issue shared by everyone who does transition, and why there are more and more people who are doing so or being subjected to medical, legal, social and psychological interventions in the name of identity affirmation, is an intolerance to one's reality, or just reality itself. Transition can provide an escape of sorts from reality, and not having one's identity affirmed brings people back to a reality that they find intolerable. I'm not sure if that's accurate, maybe that's just extrapolating or projecting from my own experience, but I suspect it to be at least somewhat true for others where identity would matter (excluding people I think don't really care for themselves, and rather just want to be supportive to those who do)

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, you were the only who answered me, so thanks!

Yes, I think the issue lies in that they are trying to escape reality, but other people don't following the official script reminds them of it. So, they have decided they need to control other people thoughts in order to keep escaping it. There were plenty of people who were willing to tell some polite lies at the begining, likely thinking that it will end there. However, they kept making more and more demands and now even some people who were fine in geting along with this are getting tired of it. The more TRA keep pushing their demands, the more other people will pushback, something than TRA will interpret as a rise in "transphobia" and they will make even more demands and so on and so on. And well, this is going to sound harsh, but if so many people have a problem with your behaviour, maybe it's time to ask yourself if you aren't the one with the problem.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The question is too personal. It has garnered personal responses. Now anyone's responses to those responses are either going to be curtailed by prioritised politeness or else come off as rude & insulting.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

If you're really so confident in you identity as you claim, why do you need so much external validation?

It’s basic human respect. Calling someone something that they consider an insult or that doesn’t apply to them is something people don’t like. Even without bringing gender into it. Calling someone a geek or a Christian or a metal head or literally anything that they feel doesn’t discribe them or even more so something that they feel is exactly the opposite of them.

Everything dealing with Men is anathema to me, obviously I wouldn’t want to be called that. And it’s worse when neutral alternatives are available if you can’t respect my identity.

At minimum it’s putting a label on my I disagree with and consider an insult. I’m secure in my identity but that doesn’t mean I’m happy to be referred to by things that are incompatible with that identity.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

Your reaction to what I said the other day was completely disproportionated. That is not how I react when I'm mistaken for a man. QT posters here constantly dismiss my knowledge and I still don't get THAT mad. Even when QT say or imply I'm part of a hate group I don't get THAT mad...

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

I wasn’t mad. I made a post because I think you abused you openly ignore the rules while being a mod. Anger had nothing to do with it. Role sets expectation and I expect mods to follow the rules to a higher standard.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

have you apologized to the rape victim you mocked by expecting her to have sympathy for the rapist she broke the nose of? have you apologized to the forum for that act, as it was done here? have you no decency to offset your conceit?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I never said a rape victim should have sympathy for their rapist. But I’ve been specifically told not to talk about it.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

How is saying im a moral failure if I don’t help a rapist not saying I needed to give them sympathy? Don’t escape the tiny confined space! Help the boys who just held you down and penetrated your vagina stop their nosebleeds cause it’s owie.

What about that isn’t demanding I give them sympathy? You didn’t use that particular word? That’s how you weasel out of personal responsibility for being a misogynist and rapist supporter?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Houseplant, I am very sorry this happened to you

By saying you had "a moral duty" to help the rapist whose nose you broke, CMOV seems in my view to be suggesting that the broken nose a male experiences in the course of raping a girl or woman is just as bad as, or worse than, the injury/harm he has caused his female victim by assaulting and raping her. CMOV seems to think you should have put the rapist's wellbeing before your own or on the same plane as your own.

Also, CMOV is showing shocking unawareness of, or total lack of regard for, the abject terror, shock and trauma girls/women experience during and after rape. As if after rape, we're all so calm, cool and collected that we are capable of thinking in terms of our "moral duty" to others. Moreover, the suggestion seems to be that part of female rape victims' "moral duty" is to process our pain and trauma at warp speed so we can hurry up attend to our assailant's welfare and "be kind."

This reminds me of Mridul Wadhwa, the TRA head of Edinburgh Rape Crisis who called rape victims "transphobic bigots" and said women who've been raped have a duty to "reframe their trauma" so as not to feel or express any ire towards anyone male that might distress or discomfit other males.

Fuck that. A girl or woman who has just been raped has no "moral duty" to anyone except herself.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thankyou!! That’s exactly how it feels when he defends his stance, like i was wrong to protect myself instead of some monstrous boys. He may as well have asked if I did anything to deserve it. Feels like the same level of blame and disregard for the survivor and none for the perpetrators.

Amazes me that masks can claim til the cows come home that men are monsters and he’s a woman so not a monster, but then fail so hard at even pretending to empathise or sympathise with an actual woman.

It’s a disturbing trend I’m noticing amongst discussions online around rape. More and more women are being told to think about how dehumanising it is to misgender their own rapists, or condemned for refusing to drop their guard around males because that male might feel badly about it. No idea if I’m just seeing it more or if it’s happening more but it’s scary.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Yea you did, and you just violated the whole "I've been specifically told not to talk about it" thing by lying about what you did.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh! So YOU'RE THE LYING ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID!!!! no surprise. There is a huge difference between talking about someone's moral duty and calling them a moral failure. How are you not banned from being here? Oh, by the kindness of Houseplant for not asking for it. But you've yet to apologize? Just as well, you could not really mean any apology you'd give now. You've been beyond that for a while.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Calling someone something that they consider an insult or that doesn’t apply to them is something people don’t like. Even without bringing gender into it. Calling someone a geek or a Christian or a metal head or literally anything that they feel doesn’t discribe them or even more so something that they feel is exactly the opposite of them.

So big deal if people don't like it. Most of us have gotten called names and descriptors that we are not throughout the course of our lives, and yet we've managed to survive just fine. In fact, such experiences have helped us to develop resilience and a stronger sense of ourselves - and taught us to have a sense of humor, to be easy-going, to practice humility, and to work on our verbal parrying skills too. Such experiences have also taught us that we are not the boss of the world with the right and power to control other people.

I really wonder what kind of family, community, neighborhood, school background, religion and cultural milieu you grew up in where everybody has the right and power to dictate how everyone else perceives them, describes them and addresses them - and where everyone is so thin-skinned, so non-resilient and so unsure of who they really are inside that they can't cope with being called "a geek, a Christian, a metal head or literally anything [else] that they feel doesn't describe them or even more so something that they feel is exactly the opposite" of who/how they believe themselves to be. Did you not have any siblings? Playmates growing up? Friends and intimates? Didn't you know anyone with views very different to yours but with whom you learned to get along with anyways?

At minimum it’s putting a label on my I disagree with and consider an insult. I’m secure in my identity but that doesn’t mean I’m happy to be referred to by things that are incompatible with that identity.

But I've seen you insult others, especially women, quite a bit. How do you rationalize the disrespect you show other people with the respect you demand of them/us?

Please explain why people have to respect other people's chosen "identity" when that identity not only has no basis in objective fact, but it stands in opposition to what is verifiably true by objective standards.

Also, I don't understand how it is that so many males who wish they were women and claim to be women have no idea that getting called names we don't like and that are insulting and dehumanizing happens to girls and women throughout our lives. If you really were "secure in your identity" as you've now claimed you are, then it seems logical to think you'd know that getting mischaracterized comes with the territory of being regarded as a girl/woman. And you'd know that women are routinely mischaracterized in ways that go beyond being inoffensively inaccurate - as when someone who isn't a geek, Christian or metal head is referred to as such - and which are deeply belittling, disgustingly dehumanizing and thoroughly demonizing.