Is “gender” innate? I’m confused

submitted by Confuzzled from self.GenderCritical

As a newish radfem, it occurred to me that there’s something I always question that I never seem to find a clear answer in gendercritical communities. We all agree that there are two sexes, and that gender is purely social. I don’t believe that personality/interests dictate if you’re a woman or a man. However, I see a common point made in GC that sex is completely unrelated to the persons mind/way of thinking, sex is a biological aspect, not a way of thinking/behaviour. Apart from socialisation, I wonder if there are inherent behaviour differences? Of course this is a generalisation, but I do feel differences when I’m with women or men. I feel more comfortable around women. I’m not feminine myself, I’m extremely gender neutral with neutral tastes and interests. I don’t feel “like a woman”, I just feel like a human. But I still feel a sisterhood with women that I do not share with men. In a research trip I took, the women naturally grouped together and the men were together behind us (of course there were still exceptions but generally).

If a boy was raised as a girl since very young, complete with female pronouns, socialisation, given a new female body, would he be happy living as a woman? (If he didn’t know he was born male) I feel that the boy would know something is not right. But that suggests that he has some sort of innate sense. Much like how I don’t feel like a woman but if I woke up tomorrow in a man’s body, I’m not sure I’d like it (though maybe I would remain in it for the privilege? Haha) This notion seems to go against popular GC opinions. What do you all think? Thanks for reading

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[–]emissch 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

No, gender/gendered brains isn't innate. I don't have a circuit in my head that tells me to like pink because its for girls. however, there could be some differences between males and females in visuo-spatial cognition, verbal and reading skills and of course hormonal differences that could influence behavior. Males overall are more prone to aggression (presumably due to higher testosterone) and you can see that bare out in crime statistics. it should be noted that there have been multiple studies analyzing this and at the end of the day there is no significant difference between male and female brains.

here are some articles and their findings. I'm not sure how great these studies are or if they have been debunked since.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/whats-on/the-neuroscientist-shattering-the-myth-of-the-gendered-brain-9086242/

[–]GConly 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Males overall are more prone to aggression (presumably due to higher testosterone)

Prenatal testosterone. If you treat female animal embryos with extra testosterone in the womb they show greater levels of aggression as adults, and they have normal adult female testosterone levels.

should be noted that there have been multiple studies analyzing this and at the end of the day there is no significant difference between male and female brains.

It's big enough that you can reliably tell the sex of someone from an MRI. It's only an idk result if the person is gay.

[–]emissch 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What are the differences that can be told through an MRI (other than just the size difference alone)?

[–]Confuzzled[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see. Thanks for the links to studies. I agree, I don’t believe that girls naturally like pink, flowers, sparkles etc etc. I just wonder about GCs views of inherent differences in behaviour, though this can probably be attributed to differences in biology. Interesting! Thanks for replying

[–]anfd 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Interesting debate between Gina Rippon (from the Cambridge Independent article above) and Simon Baron-Cohen from last year (it's over an hour): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfaE-gWZ9I

[–]Realwoman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think men and women are more similar than different but besides aggression, there is a big difference in sexuality and sexual/relational behavior. Men are more prone to paraphilias and they're more sexually motivated. They can also way more easily separate sex from attachment. They're more prone to porn addiction and sex addiction.

[–]milpathecat 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No, gender is the ideology used by patriarchy to perpetuate the domination of men over women. It is not innate, it is man-made (literally), like all ideologies. This ideology then takes the form of socialization, gender norms, etc that are imposed on us from birth. Brains aren't differently wired if you're one sex or the other: that's neurosexism and it's been debunked.

[–]Confuzzled[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

See, I never really could understand exactly what gender is, even after reading TRA explanations of it. I know “gendered” products, like feminine or masculine marketed products. But things like agender, demigender etc like what does that mean??? Feeling different each day?

[–]GConly 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

If a boy was raised as a girl since very young, complete with female pronouns, socialisation, given a new female body, would he be happy living as a woman?

It doesn't work.

There's a group of boys born without penises, look exactly like female babies externally and who then get raised as girls. The penises grow much later.

Most of them get spotted as boys long before puberty because if their behaviour, and a lot will outright state they are boys and want to be dressed and present as boys. Virtually all have a male gender identity as adults. It's a rare condition, out of about eighteen cases in one study and seventeen had a male ID.

And yes you can tell if a brain is male or female. About the only time it's uncertain is if the person is gay.

There are also boys with severely deformed genitals who get surgically altered to look like girls, got raised as girls. A look at them as adults showed that almost all reverted to male ID.

So it does seem it's innate.

[–]milpathecat 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can "tell" because of neuroplasticity, not because there is such a thing as gender ID. You're just either making stuff up or parroting conservative hogwash.

[–]Irascible-harpy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You cannot tell from a brain with any certainty whether a person is male or female. There are brain characteristics which may be more predominantly male or female, but you CANNOT tell whether a person is male or female based on their brain alone.

Quick Sources: https://www.nbcnews.com/better/wellness/can-you-tell-which-brains-are-male-neither-can-these-n471751 https://neurosciencenews.com/neuroscience-brain-sex-4366/

[–]GConly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You cannot tell from a brain with any certainty whether a person is male or female.

It's about 97% certainty. You only have ambiguous brains if the person is gay. It works the same way it would if you looked at someone's body not including the genitals. So someone 6ft2? Probably male. 6ft with narrow hips and broad shoulders, even more likely to be male.

I do have a paper on it somewhere.

[–]Irascible-harpy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Source that bby

[–]Confuzzled[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The part of this answer that confuses me (and why I asked this question in the first place) is that some people posit that there is an innate feeling, so if you raised a male as a female, he would still revert back to male. But then, wouldn’t that support the transgender movement in a way, they can say they have an innate feeling they’re in the wrong body? Gosh this is all so convoluted

[–]Asplenium 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really because no one is in the "wrong body". That idea is just fantasy/sci fi plot device. We are our bodies. All thoughts and personalities come from the brain, which is a body part. Those males who people think are female are not 'reverting' to anything, they were always male. Just like TIMs are and always will be males.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, there's nothing innate about gender. The Gendered Brain by Gina Rippon talks a lot about neurosexism and the modern understanding of the brain being neuroplastic. You wouldn't be comfortable in a man's body tomorrow because of the history in your female body and the social experiences you've faced as a female under patriarchy. That becomes entrenched in your brain, but if you took five boy and girl babies from birth, put their brains in jars, raised them with no sex in a cooperative environment without sex roles, no, they wouldn't end up identifying with a gender.

[–]Confuzzled[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I must say a part of that sisterhood feeling I get with women is unfortunately, knowing that we have a lot of negative shared experiences. It sucks. You’re right about the man’s body part. I just wish for a society where I’m treated as another human not a ~ladyyy~ or a servant...