Who are some trans people you get along with/admire?

submitted by quickbeam from self.GenderCritical

So, while I consider myself now to be "gender critical", I do have friends in real life who are non-binary and some friendly acquaintances who are trans. I also have encountered more public figures who are trans who seem like great people, and many of them seem to agree with gender critical/radical feminist philosophy to boot. Buck Angel comes to mind as seeming like a really good person who wants the best for kids and who values free speech.

I think it's important to highlight the trans people with whom we find agreement and whom we admire in order to create a more productive dialogue building towards a stable consensus which values women's rights and trans rights in the future.

Not to be all Robert Reich, but what do you think?

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[–][deleted] 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think most of us are not against trans people, more like we are seeing the movement from a broad perspective and we're not going to ignore what we're seeing nor agree with all the rhetoric that's pushed nor respect someone's misogynistic fantasies or whatever else.

For example, you mentioned your non-binary friends. I can't agree that non-binary means anything, in fact my earnest research into understanding non-binary identities--so I could be a better ally--was part of how I fell down the whole damn rabbit hole to begin with and peaked. But the people who identify themselves as non-binary or anything else are no less human with their own personalities and merit. To me this has become like religion. Not sure if that's a great analogy. But I don't discount the entire person or their humanity just because I don't agree with their religion.

To answer your question, I appreciate Miranda Yardley!!

Also, I agree with you on productive dialogue, and I like your invitation to discuss individuals we respect. I have my doubts that's possible when this has all been forced into such extreme polarization with the "kill all TERFs" and "everything is transphobia" attitudes. I feel like I was radicalized myself in reaction, and now I'm trying to be more balanced without compromising truth, reality, women's rights, greater good, etc.

[–]quickbeam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've been a vegan for some time and I know I personally got sick of being associated with vegans whose activism was extreme to the point of hating other people or being insensitive to feminism. People would sometimes expect me to yell at them just because I was ordering a veggie burger, which was pretty weird. Because of that I realize that all activist groups, beliefs and identities contain a multitude of voices. Even on this thread you can see gender critical people who seem to actually hate trans people (as we're told we all do) as well as people who have mixed views or mostly positive views. My view is mostly positive because I'm operating under the assumption that most trans/non-binary people are like the people I've met in real life rather than the loudest voices being amplified. I also assume that if some subset of these people are mentally ill, mental illness is a condition we should have compassion for rather than hate on.

As to your point on whether it's possible to have productive dialogue - I think it is always possible to control how I engage in dialogue, and the mindset with which I approach other people. It's up to the other party how to respond. But my rule of thumb for myself is to engage in kind and/or neutral discussion even or especially when I disagree with someone and disengage from the discussion when it's clear it's no longer possible. I have found great success with this approach in terms of my own mental well-being and at times with finding points of connection and agreement with others.

[–]yishengqingwa666 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

None. I don't hang with or associate with delusional Narcissists and misogynists.

[–]jkfinn 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are two responses out of eleven that I'm in accord with, and this is one. I have refused to consort with any TiMs so far, and no way does this change going forward. In fact, the more exceptions I hear made here or anywhere, the more I know I need to double down on my position (although it's as easy as pie). It's worse than the endless references to the poor "porn addicts." To me, this just a continuance of the "non-judgmental" way of being that has enabled a cult's rise to power.

[–]quickbeam[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I don't relate to this perspective at all. If all gender critical people believed this way, then it would be justified to call it a hateful/transphobic community. I still don't think it would be justified to ban the subreddit, however. All people are humans first and all groups of any type of people contain people who are kind and cruel, extreme and moderate, etc.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A GC transwoman who blogged anonymously as Snowflake Especial. https://snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/

[–]11mile_house 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There’s a few on Twitter I actually like. They don’t deny their sex and respect women’s spaces. You could look at Dr. Debbie Hayton, @manaximum, @iamtransexual, and Blaire White.

[–]lemmy 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I follow Rose of Dawn to see what conservatives are up to. I like Natalie Wynn's videos although I don't agree with all of them obviously. Juno Birch is very entertaining and artistic, and doesn't really bring social justice into entertainment. I really love Wendy Carlos' music.

[–]quickbeam[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I totally forgot Wendy Carlos was trans. We have Switched-on-Bach and the Clockwork Orange soundtrack at our house!

[–]RedditHatesLesbians 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm fine with any trans person that admits that they're not the opposite sex and never will be. If they hold the stance that trans women are trans women, and trans men are trans men, then I'm happy. If they start to pretend real womanhood is a costume you can put on then this upsets me because it's blatant misogyny. I'm fine with people living their lives as they please. If you're a hyper feminine male or a hyper masculine female, live your truth. Just don't start pretending you're something your not and forcing other people to use your pronouns. There was a time when trans people had to earn their pronouns by passing, and every trans person actually had dysphoria. Basically, I support the notion of homosexual transsexualism, which is why the T was even included in the first place. It wasn't for crossdressing heterosexuals.

If its a 50 year old man on hormones all of a sudden that's autogynophilia and I'm going to stay far away from you. Especially if they call themselves lesbians.

[–]moonlightascending 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't necessarily have an issue with people who're transgender in the sense that I recognize that dysphoria is a mental illness and as someone with mental illness understand it's very hard to cope with and people are usually willing to do whatever it takes to make it better. I have an issue with the fact that the "solution" being marketed to teens and young adults is irreversible surgeries and medications, and that the loudest of these individuals tend to be rather misogynistic and enjoy telling lesbians how to behave and who to date.

to answer your question, I like and agree with Blair White on a surprising number of issues, and follow Rose of Dawn as well.

I have a few friends who're "nonbinary", "gender fluid", etc. and I still love them, I just don't agree with their "gender identity". however, the people I'm friends with aren't the ones screaming that lesbians need to suck girldick and that not dating TIMs is a hate crime. they're surprisingly pretty chill.

[–]quickbeam[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I totally get how the loudest voices in a movement can really sour people on a movement when they are calling for things that deny other people's rights or sense of safety. In looking for positive influences, I'm hoping that we can do better than many of the loudest trans rights voices and present a group that is open and welcoming for all people who want safe and scientific approaches to gender dysphoria and sensible approaches to taking women's rights fully into account when considering trans rights.

[–]Irascible-harpy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We are not an open and welcoming group to all people. If we were we wouldnt be a feminist space. The fastest way to kill a women's group is to open it to men and antifeminists.

[–]quickbeam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No one is saying men or anti-feminists need to be welcomed with open arms. But one can engage in rational disagreement while still retaining a respect for the basic humanity of individuals within a group. I think that's well worth remembering. And that was the purpose of my post. Many people do not want to be associated with groups or schools of thought that they perceive to be hateful or discriminatory. I don't think the majority of gender critical feminists are either of these, but if those voices become the loudest, it will hurt feminism and kill the movement much faster than being open or welcoming would.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There was a person I was friends with years ago who was a transwoman who went by "Tay." Never had any issues with Tay, but that was back in 2008 before woke culture shat on itself. Those were better times!

[–]Lady_Montgomery 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Trans isn’t real. Just delusional people who pretend to be the opposite sex. They are mentally ill. No matter how nice they might appear in public, they are bad shit insane th slinger you talk to them and god forbid you don’t validate them. All in all, I have no time for people who don’t want to help themselves get better and will not tolerate the, in my life. My two cents.

[–]quickbeam[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Personally, I don't relate to this attitude at all, and if the whole gender critical community was composed of people who felt this way I wouldn't want to identify with it. I think gender dysphoria is real and some people are genuinely affected by it. I think that some of those people might be helped by transitioning. (This all seems to be in line with what even gender critical researchers have said on the matter.) There are probably a lot of people transitioning for other reasons, and some of them may be mentally ill. But as a person with mental illness, I don't think judging the way people deal with their mental illnesses or hating people who have them is particularly productive or kind. Having a mental illness means it's a lot harder to figure out what care you need and if doctors are not giving you good advice or even giving you bad advice, what then are you supposed to do? A lot of people have been prescribed drugs for depression that actually have increased suicidal thoughts as a side effect. Is it their fault if they take these and then commit suicide? We need to put responsibility where it ought to lie with medical professionals and organizations to reclaim their responsibility to give the best care as dictated by science and research, not based on how the political winds are blowing.

[–]Lady_Montgomery 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh don’t get me wrong. The gender dysphoria is absolutely real, and a proper treatment must be found for it. People suffering from this must absolutely get care, proper care. But trans isn’t real, as you cannot change your sex. Maiming a body to fit the delusion is not a treatment, it is not helping these people.

The whole treatment of the majority of people with all sorts of mental issues are shit. It’s so bad, that sometimes it really feels like psychiatry is just a pseudo science created to cater to the egos of psychiatrists, so they can feel special.

[–]immersang 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Can't think of anyone I "admire" (except maybe people like Miranda Yardley in the sense that he puts his neck out pissing off what should be his own community and not backing down even though he was even dragged to court for "transphobia" once).

But I worked with a TIM some years ago who seemed like an "old school transsexual" and was so far the only one I met in real life who actually passed outside of photos. Probably someone who started the process fairly young and possibly was already androgynous as a boy. Didn't force their beliefs on anyone, just wanted to live their life, nice and fairly quiet person.

[–]jet199 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well In used to work with and get on with Rebecca Root but she has turned into a crazed totalitarian monster. It just goes to show how destructive the TRA dogma is. This was someone who worked with young actors teaching them they could play any part so long as the put the hard work in to understand that person (or thing) who now has to sign up to the TRA narrative that a trans person has to be played by exactly the same type of trans person or they are literally killing people. She recently wrote a piece in the Times saying basically everyone who disagreed would have to completely submit to the trans cult not exceptions, no debate. This is completely different to the soft, liberal, tolerant, artistic person I knew.

The change is down to power. She has got in with a set of famous trans and started working in woke places like the BBC where she is basically worshipped as a God. The famous TRA are in such a bubble of deference they don't even think they are winning the debate, they think it's already been won. This is true even in the UK where women are shoring up their rights daily. And they are given such a feeling of power by arse lickers around them, that they can do anything and get away with it, makes them lose their basic morality no matter how nice, open and left wing they were to start with. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[–]Irascible-harpy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Trans ideology is diametrically opposed to women's fight for liberation. There's no such thing as being trans (or non binary) and a gender critical feminist. I don't hate trans people, but what they believe in is regressive and harmful to women. Gender is nothing but a prison. So no, I don't. Just like I don't admire any conservatives because what they believe is directly harmful to my sex class.

[–]Bogos 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have always felt comfortable with gay TIMs. It was a surprise to learn that there were straight TIMs, and then of course I started looking deeper into the current activism. Gay TIMs have always seemed like they just want to be one of the girls, and although drag is misogynistic, gay TIMs have never felt like they insisted against biology irl. They are living out a heterosexual fantasy but why should that bother me.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

IRL I have an old acquaintance who is a TIM. I wouldn't like scream at him on the street or anything; he mostly makes me sad. I think he became what he is out of internalized homophobia. His parents did a number on him.

The other is a TIF who is married to my friend. Similar story with her. She suffered horrible abuse at the hands of her parents. I think it makes her feel safer to live as a man. I don't go out of my way to spend time with her, but I do really like her wife.

The one thing that drives me nuts about my friend is she's such an aggressive TRA-- way moreso than her spouse, the TIF! But we have learned not to talk about trans issues for the most part. She's gotten the hint from me that we don't see eye to eye, so we leave it alone. Then our mutual friend is a TRA man (less aggressive about it tho), but somewhat gender non-conforming and male identifying. I think he also can sense the TERF-iness from me, but we are friends.

I just don't go off about my beliefs, and I like them all as people. They all mean well. It's more about setting boundaries-- I don't put up with casual sexism, for example. No slurs around me, please. I do not think I could be friends with an actual autogynephile, which seems to be what a lot of the TIMs are these days.

[–]sisterinsomnia 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is not someone being trans that I have any trouble with, and I have no beef with individuals, in general.

I have trouble with the authoritarian part of the ideology which aims to erase biological sex as at least one acceptable determinant of who is a woman, because I am kicked out of my own sex group with these new identity-based definitions, and I was never allowed to have any part in discussing that change.

We can't fight sexism if we can't mention biological sex because sexism (and sex-based oppression) is based on how others view someone's biological sex. So sexism can actually hurt nonbinary female-bodied people and trans women, too!

The authoritarian trans ideology with its #nodebate command is going to destroy our ability to do feminism about sex-based oppression. And it is that ideology which cannot be allowed to rule the world.

[–]Aloudmeow 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

None.