Someone said "let's not just talk about TRA's all the time." Can we finally talk about this? Or are we still too afraid of this, too?

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[–]Realwoman 73 insightful - 1 fun73 insightful - 0 fun74 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

I think the whole idea of a hijab is misogynistic and oppressive

[–]fuckupaddams 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

Yes, but I've never ostracized a woman for wearing one.

[–]Realwoman 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

You don't have have to ostracize women for wearing them, it's important to accept all people. But you can still criticize the hijab as oppressive, the same way you can criticize high heels as oppressive or sex work as oppressive. You can criticize the misogyny inherent in both Islam as a religion and the cultural practices of different societies.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

THIS. A lot of feminists tend to think that by saying "religious people need to have their rights as well" means that the people who criticize certain aspects of (mainly Abrahamic) religions are trying to ostracize the followers of any such religion. Nuh-uh, hun. You grew up in a secular household? Cool for you. Not all of us did, though. A lot you people have zero idea. And - this might be a wild idea for many - criticizing a movement, ideology, religion or other belief is not fucking PHOBIA. It's common sense.

I'd wager that those feminists - which is a pitifully small number nowadays - who speak against any misogynist religion - are not condemning the people in whichever religion. They are questioning, condemning and criticizing the fucking religion itself - and of course those who uphold it (umm, duh, MEN. And yes, also the women who were successfully brainwashed.)

Having grown up in a sect I can honestly say it is NOT a fucking choice and usually going against it means you will be cast out. I would have loved to have someone speak openly against this goddamn sect I grew up in - instead of having y'all copping out by some stupid ass "uGh I diDn'T LivE thAt Live sO I wiLl shut Up hurr durrr" reasons. I was looked down upon, made fun of, ostracized, bullied - by my classmates, teachers, friends, friends' parents... all because of something I never even fucking chose. All because I was a "part of that weird sect." And fucking NOBODY asked if I was doing okay, if things were alright at home, if I needed help. Nobody. So I have my very realistic reasons for condemning people who think "aaw religion!" and then looking away like it's some kind of a cop-out. UGH. It's not.

Nobody chooses to be a hardcore (pick-which-ever-Abrahamic-religion-follower) at the ripe age of fucking ZERO. Nobody.

No. Fucking. Body. It is pure brainwashing and indoctrination since day 1 and it is wrong and harmful and extremely misogynistic pretty much 99.9999% of the time. I am in awe - not the good one, the shit one - when I see my feminist sisters would even try to defend this kind of shit. Take a good look at yourselves and then take another, BETTER look at yourselves and then - maybe then - come and give me a lesson about religious violence. I'm so fucking done.

DONE.

[–]SameOldBS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm applauding every word of that, vitunrotta

[–]vitunrotta[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad you managed to make sense of it, lol. Sometimes writing while upset (...and with my mental condition, which I won't disclose) ends up in incoherent rambles.

[–]Realwoman 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for this

[–]fuckupaddams 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

I'm a feminine feminist and I don't think high heels are oppressive. I also wear makeup. And have done burlesque. That's where choice comes in (because no one's ever pressured me into that stuff (yes really), it's just how I be.) Pushing high heels and femininity in general on woman is oppressive though, of course.

I've been friends with women who wear the hijab. I won't pretend that Islam is a woman-friendly religion because I know it isn't. I don't know if any woman would naturally want to wear one if they weren't told to by their family and religion all their lives. If a woman generally feels more comfortable wearing one, I have no issue with it but I would question why she feels that way. If men have such a hard time with viewing women as sex objects, the response being to cover up the women avoids the root problem. It's like a temporary fix rather than a real solution, then again patriarchy is never concerned with fixing itself.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 24 insightful - 4 fun24 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 4 fun -  (14 children)

That’s amazing, you magically escaped the part of misogynist culture that objectifies women and says heels (which podiatrists universally agree are debilitating) are sexy and completely randomly chose to wear heels and do burlesque

That’s some special magic

Look we have to be willing to look critically at our own practices. You can wear heels and do burlesque but it’s denial and bad faith to pretend you somehow chose to do those things in a cultural vacuum absent of pressure.

Until COVID I wore makeup sometimes. However I was under no illusion that it was a free choice (free of pressure or consequences).

[–]fuckupaddams 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Like I get your logic but feminine women do exist. I literally would have no consequences for not doing the things I mentioned. My mom isn't a feminine woman and didn't instill it in me, my friends are pretty gender non-conforming and I'm the only "feminine" one, and I don't think I need to forgo wearing a skirt just because of the chance that it might turn a man on. Your version of feminism seems pretty lame. I'm anti porn, critical of sex work, but I'm not anti fashion and femininity. It's literally about choice. Things aren't so black and white, and your version of feminism is gonna push away a lot of feminine women who don't want to be judged for being feminine.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Wear a skirt, wear makeup if you want to - I’m not policing that. I am asking you to question the social context of those actions (more so the makeup tbh).

I’ve been a feminist for YEARS and wore at least some makeup all that time (with the awareness of what it does and is, I mean I didn’t lie to myself about it being a free choice). It took freaking COVID to get me to stop entirely. I might still wear it, if I feel like not wearing it would make life harder in a small but important way (Eg interview).

Collective action matters more than whether someone wears eyeliner, in my opinion, but not everything a woman does is feminist just because a woman does it.

[–]fuckupaddams 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Can makeup just be neutral? Can men and women just use makeup as an art form, or as an optional beautifying tool, without it being drenched in horrible sexism and patriarchy and homophobia or whatever makeup becomes depending on whoever it's applied to? It's makeup - let whoever wants to wear it wear it, and whoever doesn't, doesn't have to. It's just pigment.

I see your point about feeling like you need it for things like an interview. It shouldn't be that way. But does it being that way automatically make makeup oppressive? The attitudes of men regarding women without makeup needs to change, for sure. But is wearing makeup always a defense against those attitudes of men?

I mean I didn’t lie to myself about it being a free choice

Do you think it could never be a free choice for women to wear makeup? What if she genuinely grew up not being forced to perform femininity (hippie parents for example) but ended up deciding she likes makeup anyway?

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Makeup could be neutral in an alternate universe where either a) men in whatever class of work we’re ALSO punished or even fired for not wearing makeup, b) men were actively encouraged to wear makeup at a rate equal to women, or c) no one was particularly targeted by a culture wrt makeup.

Since none of those is true and since actually what happens instead is that girls and women are inundated with images of women being objectified through makeup, in all media, from birth on, and since women are defined in our culture primarily as vehicles of access to sex, and since women are dehumanized on this basis, and since makeup mystifies similarity and justifies dehumanization, even if your mother (and mine fwiw) didn’t wear makeup, yeah no it’s not neutral.

[–]fuckupaddams 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Here's a question I often wonder. Do we act in terms of the universe we currently live in, or the universe we want to live in? Do we get to the universe we want to live in without doing the latter?

I'm not being rhetorical. In terms of feminism, do we emphasize women as victims (the sad reality thus far) or emphasize women as agents of their own autonomy (the reality we want to see?)

I think healthy feminism acknowledges both. We can't pretend women aren't oppressed and we need to tackle that oppression, but we also won't get out of oppression by only ever framing women as being victims with no agency.

For what it's worth, in my little town of nyc things are shifting just a bit. I am often the only girl at work wearing makeup. At my last job, I'd talk about makeup with my (gay) male coworker who also wore makeup. We need to shift our conversations to include the ways that things are shifting. Sexism is still out there (no shit, I'm a feminist) but the conversation has to be updated sometimes, too.

[–]OrneryStruggle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Seems like you are not "gender critical" at all.

[–]fuckupaddams 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Pretty fucked up that your feminism has no room for strong feminine women. Do I have to hate all things girly to be valid? I've outgrown my not like other girls syndrome, and I know I'd support whatever kind of woman you are, why can't you say the same about me?

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gender criticism inherently rejects the idea of inherent "femininity" and "masculinity" so yeah, I have no room for strong "feminine" women since all femininity is is ritualized submission. That is a basic tenet of gender criticism. You aren't gender critical at all if you believe in pseudo-religious woo like inherent femininity or "strong" femininity i.e. submissiveness.

I just think of myself as having a personality and don't link my personality traits to patriarchal concepts like femininity, you should try it sometime. All women are biologically similar and temperamentally/characteristically unique human beings with their own preferences and traits.

[–]fuckupaddams 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We're honestly talking about the same thing and just using different words. I in no way think any of the things I mentioned are inherently feminine, I don't think there is any way to exist that is inherently feminine. But when I use that word people tend to know what I mean... I mean we're living at a time where every gendered phrase has like three different definitions to it, just give me a bit of a break. I am usually of the opinion that we need new words to describe this thing besides masculine and feminine. Saying I'm a feminine woman because I like to wear dresses and makeup is sort of counterproductive, I see your point there. Unrhetorically though, what else would you call it? I'm not trying to "gotcha," I'm genuinely curious and have been wondering this myself. When I say "the difference between feminine and masculine women" in regards to sexism, people generally know what I mean even though I'm upholding stereotypes by using those words, and that sucks. Flamboyant? Stoic? I genuinely don't know what adjectives to use that convey the same thing, because especially in regards to sexism it's often important to make distinctions, like "masculine women are respected more than feminine women," for instance, but if I don't want to use those words, what should I use? I'm open to ideas.

[–]Realwoman 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Wow, didn't think I'd see choice feminism on here. Just because you choose something, doesn't mean it's not oppressive. I wear makeup, too, doesn't mean it's a feminist statement.

And high heels are very bad because they're really, really bad for your health, women are ruining their feet, legs and hips for the sake of looking good. Heels are actual oppression because of the health damage they do, I have no idea why so many women deny this. Makeup used today doesn't cause health problems but heels always have and always will. Same thing about tanning - it causes cancer but women are still doing it for some reason.

[–]Anna_Nym 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

"Choice feminism" is a problem because it denies class effects. Talking about one's own personal lived experience and relationship to choices isn't choice feminism. It's sharing life experiences. I think it is an important part of feminism to understand how women navigate that dance between the personal and the general.

I also do think it's important to understand the subjective experience of positive aspects of things that are bad for us. I used to wear high heels because I wanted to be taller. It was straightforward. I generally didn't wear stilettos because they hurt, but when I wore them, I did feel like a bad ass. Of course, the feeling of "bad ass"ness came from media images of the femme fatale. For my generation, the most powerful images of women that we saw were generally also sexy. I think my work as a feminist is to acknowledge that cultural layer and work to critique and change it. But it's also to advocate for shoe companies making better designed heels so that those who want the height boost suffer less to get it. And for what it's worth, platforms never hurt me to wear.

[–]Realwoman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Platforms are still not good for you. I really wish society cared more about health.

[–]fuckupaddams 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Alright simply because I've been trying for months to find actual feminist spaces, I'm not going to argue against you because you obviously care about women. I'm not going to be your enemy, I just want to talk about this nuanced issue. When I say I wouldn't experience consequences, I'm talking specifically about me and not every woman. I know for sure that women face consequences for not being "womanly." I'm talking about only my experiences.

I was never expected to perform femininity. Seriously. I grew up in the non glamorous part of NYC where being able to stand up for yourself was much more important than how hot you were, by a non-feminine, nonreligious single mom who never pressured me about how to present myself. I'm the only one of my friends who wears dresses and doesn't have a pixie cut, so no pressure from my peers either. It's "in" right now to be a masculine girl in my circle. In fact I've noticed the boys like non-feminine girls here more. My "tomboy" best friend got much more male attention than I did when we were in school. So no pressure to impress the boys there either (I was/am a goth artsy type so I was always, pretty much by default, dressing for myself. Whoever was into it was into it, I wasn't trying to attract any flies.) I was never told I had to wear this, or couldn't cut my hair short (I've rocked the pixie myself), or needed to look like this because I'm a woman, and can't look like that because I'm not a man. Never. (again, only speaking for me.) Yet all my role models are feminine - I can't help it, I love kickass feminine ladies. I like looking "classy," and I'm the only one around me that has that aesthetic. I don't really rock the androgynous look, nor do I feel that it's me in the slightest.

I know the patriarchy exists but I am the way I am because I am the way I am. I fucking love dresses and skirts and I also kickbox, like metal music and have an almost perfect gpa. About heels - I'm 5'1 so I feel pretty ridiculous wearing flat shoes, because people already mistake me for a teenager because of my face. I wear slightly platformed shoes (not skinny stilettos) because it literally makes me feel like I'm a person and not a toddler. Purely a height thing. If I were a few inches taller I'd wear heels less, perhaps. As it is though it's almost necessary for my self esteem because of my height. When I'm going to a party, I wear heels to go with my outfit. My best friend goes in sneakers. We're both cool people. I'm the feminist, while she doesn't really pay attention to anything political.

I feel for and know the kind of women you're talking about, painstakingly trying to be as hot as they can be for the patriarchy or to please the men around them... it's just, you have to acknowledge the existence that some women just like to dress up for themselves too.

I wear makeup, too, doesn't mean it's a feminist statement.

Can it just be neutral? Can men and women just use makeup as an art form, or as an optional beautifying tool, without it being drenched in horrible sexism and patriarchy and homophobia or whatever makeup becomes depending on whoever it's applied to? It's makeup - let whoever wants to wear it wear it, and whoever doesn't, doesn't have to. It's just pigment.

[–]Realwoman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Look, I get it. I'm not against makeup. I know many women that never wear any makeup whatsoever, including my mom. My mom has never had any interest in any of that stuff and somehow I grew up to love makeup, jewelry and pretty clothes. I don't think makeup is an important feminist battle because it's mostly harmless. It's not artsy for me, I just wear it to makes myself look better and not hate how I look in photos. I'm well aware that makeup highlights secondary sex characteristics in the face (aside from hiding imperfections).

High heels are different. They're just really bad for you and cause real harm to women. I hate that they're mainstream at all. The long term pain is just not worth it.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

I agree with you. I rarely wear make up or heals it can be fun to wear them and if you think its fun to wear you go live your best life!

I have the same issue with shaving. Shaving your legs and arms is supposedly not feminist. Well excuse me, i love soft things to touch and when i shave my legs, they are so soft im rubbing my legs all day and it makes me happy. I have no issues with walking out with hair on my legs, but i shave for my pleasure. Does not make me less of a feminist.

[–]Realwoman 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know how I feel about that. On one hand, I do shave and shaving is not bad for your health, other than causing some irritation. But I've been a victim of abuse about my body and pubic hair and I will never forget that humiliation. It's disturbing that women are expected to look like what men see in porn and it causes real trauma to girls.

[–]Hard_headed_woman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There's nothing that feels better than smooth, shaved legs on fresh sheets, but then I'm hypersensitive and have sensory issues.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

agreed :D

[–]fuckupaddams 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

My boyfriend and I both shave our legs (him more often.) Lol.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

he shaves his legs?? Omg im so jealous I never had a boyfriend do that. That sounds so great when snuggling

[–]fuckupaddams 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We're out here breaking all the rules. And yes it's great, we're super soft bbs

[–]Sebell 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Feminism isn't "making a choice". It's fighting for the FREEDOM and right to choose. Not the same thing at all!

Feminism is an activist fighting for women to have the choice. You get to choose to wear heels or to not wear them. Maybe you normally do, but don't on a Monday because you're legs ache, after running over the weekend. Great! You have the choice.

In 2016, a woman in Britain was fired for not wearing high heels to work. She wasn't the first, won't be the last. She didn't have the choice not to wear them.

[–]Marsupial 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Same. But I think that it's a misogynic and oppressive feature that's been mixed up with culture in a way that makes many women unable to recognize it for the oppression that it is, or accepting of it through internalized misogyny in the guise of tradition. I would not attack a woman who wore one. I do not approve of the practice. I think it's questionable to make laws to restrict the use in adult women. I believe the use of hijab for children and underage girls should be absolutely banned. I fully support the ban of the burqa and the niquab as these are about full erasure and dehumanization of the person wearing them.

[–]Realwoman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I agree with you

[–]SameOldBS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Me too. The whole ideology underpinning it, the idea of honour culture and women's sexual purity, the insistence on modesty, is so deeply anti-feminist that I fail to understand any woman who would support the hijab.

[–]Spikygrasspod 38 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 0 fun39 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Sure, we can talk. I'm guessing you're saying you don't feel allowed to critique the hijab or other similar garments because you'll be accused of islamaphobia, is that right? I do think cultural relativism can get in the way of feminist critiques, for sure. But the same bind occurs when we talk about western gender norms, too. Feminists who critique harmful gender norms are accused of criticising or trying to control the women who conform to them. So when feminists point out that the fact that women are always posing half naked with pouty faces on magazine covers, and that this kind of sexual objectification is bad for us as a class, people think we're saying that wearing sexy clothes is always wrong, or that the women doing it are doing something wrong. The truth is we're punished for conforming to gender norms, and we're punished for not conforming. So we need to critique the harmful expectations without slamming any woman for how she navigates those unfair expectations. To make things more confusing, women-haters use our feminist critiques to humiliate and shame women. When we critique sexual objectification, women-hating pseudo-feminist men can say "yeah, she shouldn't be showing her tits like that... have some self respect, lol". If we critique sexist practices in other cultures, women-hating racists say "look how bad these foreign men treat their women! Just, uh, don't look at how we treat them over here". It's a bit of a trap. I guess we just have to keep critiquing the norms while repeating, over and over, that the point is not to punish or humiliate any woman for how she navigates them.

ETA I'm still thinking through these issues. Let me know what you think.

[–]Maeven 22 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Men pointing fingers at other men to deflect from their misogyny is all too real.

Western men will say "aw look at those women who have no rights to go outside, look at the women forced to wear hijab. See, don't you know how much better you have it?"

Muslim men will say, "See, those women who have no financial or social support system to depend on, see how they work full-time jobs and then can't raise their children right. See how they are objectified and pimped. Don't you know how good you have it?"

There is no difference here. Just men who see women as chattel and have a different idea of what they want from us.

[–]jet199 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Ah yes, the "female experience is no different in New York and Kabul" argument.

Shows such intelligence, humility and thoughtfulness whenever it's used.

[–]cybitch 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Where did you get that from exactly? The post says that the male behavior of using the shitty behavior of other groups of men to get away with their own BS is universal. No culture owns it, it's the same everywhere.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Where did you get that from exactly?

His asshole.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah yes, the "I have no idea how to debate or provide a counterargument so I come up with a strawman in order to give the impression that I'm attacking a really stupid idea but in actuality I'm just an idiot" argument.

Great work.

[–]sisterinsomnia 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I often find it helpful to go deeper into issues such as separate dress codes for women and men, including religious dress codes. For instance, why is it almost always the case (the Sikhs being the exception) that the women's dress code is so much more likely to cause discomfort, limit movement, cause over-heating in hot weather and so on. And what do the various holy books say about all these issues?

The Quran, for example, says very little about how Muslim women and men should dress, and depending on the scholar one reads it could even be argued that the only rule for women is to dress modestly. The question, then, is who it is who decides what modesty in women's dress means, and the answer to that has been that it would have been religious men who did that deciding.

The same is true of other religions. In general, women's behavior and dress is always more regulated than men's behavior and dress. But then all those rules were created centuries ago and at least some scholars argue that what 'modesty' means today is not the same thing as its meaning a thousand years ago, and that the concept can be updated.

And of course it is true that women here are also told to dress a certain way. Popular culture teaches young girls that they should be as sexy as possible, for instance, even if that dress puts them at risk or endangers their health (in, say, wearing such high heels that your back suffers while also making it harder for you to run away to avoid danger). But some cultures decree women's dress by law and punish those who deviate from the code, others use persuasion, often in the opposite direction. The former case is obviously worse, but both might be good to investigate more.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes it’s a trap - but I think we can still disagree with a practice in principle, while having empathy for women figuring their own shit out in relation to it. Or figuring it out ourselves. At the same time, trying to see things as clearly as possible given material conditions.

Same thing as when we look at porn or sex work. No hate for women entangled in it - empathy for them, criticism of the system.

And we can look at one issue at a time and be complicated and imperfect and still at least aim to be consistent.

None of us is perfect, doesn’t mean we can’t recognize reality. See being a straight woman in a relationship (most comparable to the OP viz a viz social ties, family etc) or wearing makeup etc.

Saying “hey what about Western society!” doesn’t answer the question around veiling specifically. We can discuss Western sexual objectification another time.

As far as veiling, there’s no universe in which it will make sense to me that women and their level of hair exposure are responsible for men’s moral failings.

That said obviously if someone’s feeling pressured to veil (or is punished re veiling), one of course understands.

[–]Spikygrasspod 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yep, you're right, and I disagree on principle with veils for women. The justifications for this practice are blatantly misogynistic, and there's no universe in which it is morally justified to treat women as the location of sexual temptation that causes men's bad behaviour.

I'm just on edge about this because politicians use it to push white supremacist agendas. Like Australia's Pauline Hanson (of the white nationalist 'one nation' party) or Germany's AFD. And I'm pretty sure these people do NOT have in mind a future of equality for women.

Perhaps the solution is to push these opportunistic types to support things that would actually help women. "Oh, so you care about women's lib? Would you like to support my policy that will make things better for women?" That way they would forced to either help, or admit they don't actually care about women.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like it, only problem is those types are never too bothered about cognitive dissonance and they can’t be shamed.

(Although AOC did a good job handling Ted Yoho.)

[–]MarkTwainiac 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Huh? Your phrasing - "can we finally talk about this?" - suggests that you think feminists who oppose regressive, sexist and misogynistic gender ideology are all of one mind and background and that none before have ever discussed or challenged the Islamic custom and/or requirement of female veiling in all its manifestations - be it the burka, niqab, chador, hijab or the more localized variations known as al-amira, khlmar or shayla.

But the fact is, women of a wide variety of nationalities and political persuasions have been speaking out in opposition to forced and coerced female veiling in Islam for generations - just as women in/from other faith traditions long have objected to and thrown off the head coverings and modest dress requirements imposed on them/us by other male supremacist ideologies such as orthodox Judaism and many sects/branches of Christianity.

Many of the women who came before us risked their lives and the lives of their families by protesting against Islamic veiling requirements and customs.

One such woman was Persian/Iranian physician, educator and lifelong feminist Farrokhou Parsa, who in 1979 was the first and only female member of the Iranian cabinet. She was put to death by firing squad in May, 1980 for refusing the forced veiling edict issued by Supreme Leader of the newly-established Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini.

In her last letter from prison prior to execution, Parsa said:

"I am prepared to receive death with open arms rather than live in shame by being forced to be veiled. I am not going to bow to those who expect me to express regret for fifty years of my efforts for equality between men and women. I am not prepared to wear the chador and step back in history."

If you want to start a convo about this topic on this social media platform, fine. But please don't frame your questions in language - Can we finally talk about this? Or are we still afraid? - meant to suggest that no women anywhere or at any previous time have ever spoken up about veiling before. Whatever your intent, the sort of framing and language you've chosen have the effect of erasing the efforts of millions of brave women of many nationalities who've spoken up on this topic over many generations.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

meant to suggest that no women anywhere or at any previous time have ever spoken up about veiling before

Well, let me clarify something: I never thought this has not been discussed about and fought over for years and years (long before I was born even). Coming from one of those "male supremacist Christian sects" I know full well what it's like to fight against the oppressive norms created by and enforced by men (and to an extent, of course, other women as well).

I have read many a book, article, report and column about the battles (both lost and won ones) women are still today having regarding the misogyny especially in fundamental religious movements. I don't want to sound like an asshole, but in this context I must use the "I'm sorry you misunderstood me" because my intention was not to imply there NEVER was any pushback and/or solidarity regarding this.

The fact is, though, that lately talking about any issue regarding especially the misogynist and oppressive nature of Islam (or rather, to clarify, certain orthodox movements within Islam) have been figuratively and literally banned on most feminist platforms. At least the ones I have been on. I understand some facets of the "we cannot condemn!" due to 911 and the shitshow that followed - however, as usual, the ah, so very American bipartisan, one-eyed, non-nuanced discussion culture took over every group, platform, and space: effectively making it impossible to even suggest that there might be something oppressive in Islam.

Your text comes across as quite condescending, and I have to say my original post did not offer much background or any further context - so it's understandable it could be easily read as "wE'Ve nEveR taLKed AbOuT ThiS" instead of, can we "start talking about this again."

This specific topic has been grinding my gears for YEARS now - the talk-bans and literally kicking people out of groups because they dared suggest that veils in any form could be misogynistic was usually enough. It went as far as "we (white, Christian background) Western feminists cannot speak for the brown women," and THAT effectively meant that one couldn't really even show support for the women who were (and STILL ARE) fighting for their right to NOT put on any religious garment if they choose not to. Like I said, I personally happen to have grown up in a religious sect that is pretty much ultra-fundamentalist Islam - just happens to be a Christian sect.

So to me this feels personal as well. I am not going to shut up about this anymore, or dance around the subject - I am goddamn ready to finally show open support to the brave girls and women all over the world where Islamism (and any oppressive religion) is still locking them into metaphorical (and sometimes real) cages and shutting them up. I hope that clarified what I meant by my post.

(Lessons learned - I will try not to post something without any added context in the future).

[–]Spikygrasspod 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Awesome. Thanks so much for sharing this.

[–]Amareldys 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So, this is a result of 9-11.

Prior to then, feminists were absolutely talking about these issues. Those old enough to remember the 80s and 90s may remember support for the Afghai women who were living behind painted windows, books like "Not Without my Daughter" and "Princess" were super popular with feminists, etc.

After 9-11, "Those muslims are mean to women!" became an excuse to bomb them. Which, as we all know, isn't good for women. That's when this became an issue. No one wanted to criticize Islam because many Western countries WERE at war with Muslim ones, and "bashing" them was seen as an endorsement. It became a further issue with the continuing migration.

So that's the cultural context of all of this.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I do understand the cultural context but I think it's high time feminists take over the discussion again. Right now the pseudo-defending of Muslim women has been hijacked by literal far-right activists ("oooh look how barbarically they treat their women aahhh!") and they, of course, do not give a rat's ass about the actual plight of these women.

While I get that there are still political and societal tensions due to 911 and all the proxy wars etc. that followed, we as feminists cannot shut up about this anymore. Discussions can be had without being racists or condescending. Ideas, religions, ideologies - none of them should be immune to scrutiny. None.

[–]Amareldys 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed. I think the first step is to let the women from those cultures take the lead, and to support groups that already exist. Maybe we should start a thread of international feminist and women's aid groups.

[–]Maeven 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is very important!

Islam bashing was cranked up by conservatives to a truly ugly extreme and linked to support for violent overthrow of countries which the right has always wanted to invade anyway, because of realpolitik. Once it became a reality, the liberals were forced to go in the opposite direction and suppress criticism (more realpolitik).

[–]motionlessoracle 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I reject all religions, especially religions that require subservience from females or consider them property.

If a woman must be pressured and coerced to wear hijab, it is patriarchy. All such women are forgiven for doing what they need to do in order to survive.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay, well, my post does not show up properly but you can follow a lovely feminist Yasmine Mohammed. :)

https://twitter.com/YasMohammedxx

[–]sisterinsomnia 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The case of women's rights (or the lack of such rights) under Islam is very poorly handled among Western liberal feminists.

The reasons are quite complex, but they include a) a fear that what one critiques will be used to add more anti-Muslim bigotry in the West, b) the idea that feminism is viewed as a Western value and that if Western feminists write about, say, hijab, they are told that they are white colonialists and that what they say will make things much worse for women wearing the hijab, and c) the argument of cultural relativism about human rights, including women's rights (i.e., that each culture must decide for itself how much equality it desires and other cultures should not interfere).

I have met all of those many times, but I also think that many white liberal feminists writers don't want to be accused of racism if they cover issues from previously oppressed non-white cultures, and some also use oppression hierarchies where women's issues never come on top.

I have always felt uncomfortable with all those arguments, though I strongly agree that it is much better if the women directly affected can lead the movement that fights for their rights and if outsiders then support them with funds and write only if requested to do so. I also agree that someone should not write about a culture that person knows nothing about, but I also think that we can learn at least something by research and reading.

Still, I think Western liberal feminists have failed the women who fight against the oppressive systems inside Islam by staying so very silent, and perhaps have also failed all other women who are struggling under misogynistic religious rules of various faiths.

The cultural relativism argument is particularly bad, in my opinion. A truly oppressive and misogynistic culture will not let women in it have any say about how many rights they should have. That decision will be made by the patriarchs of that culture. In any case, I believe that the basic human rights, including women's rights, are universal rights, though the best way to fight for them depends on what is happening in each culture. Local women are the experts on the latter, though in the most extreme conditions they may not have the space to act without outside help.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The cultural relativism argument is particularly bad, in my opinion

Ah, this, a thousand times this...

As for what you said about the local women leading the movement - I wholeheartedly agree with you on that as well. I am trying to listen and follow and spread the word of the actual women (and girls) who have spoken out against their oppression. I wish I could do more though. Maybe we'll find a way to do so - first step is to stop being so damn fearful about talking about it. If I criticize Islamism that does not make me any sort of phobe (ugh, I have come to hate that word so much) - safe for maybe "misogynyphobe.

The left itself is so willing to throw anyone under the bus who does not adhere to the agreed lingo and "safe topics" that they have honestly allowed many important subjects to be taken over by people who have no interest in helping people, but who use e.g. the talk about hijab to thinly veil (pun intended) their racism.

[–]Anandamide 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's important to talk about for sure. Here's an interview with Maryam Namazie, an ex-Muslim and human/women's rights activist who is a key member of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain. She's been the target of innumerable death threats due to speaking out about the treatment of women and girls in Islam, as well as other heretical critiques of the religion. Criticizing aspects of Islam, or the behavior of its adherents, does not make one Islamophobic.

[–]wicklesnarf 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The hijab is tough. In Western countries, what can you do? In France they've tried to (sometimes physically) force them off of women which is incredibly horrible. That doesn't even help the women who don't want to wear them, they still have whatever pressures (from their family or husband most likely) so it just makes them feel like they can't go out.

It seems the only way for women forced into it to be "liberated" is if they're able and choose to break free of their families, friends, religious communities. I think we can do some things to help with the "able to" but "choose to" will always be on them and that's an almost impossible choice to make.

[–]Asplenium 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

France hasn't banned the hijab. The rules you are thinking of are against the veils that cover the face (niqab and burka). The hijab just covers the hair and neck so it doesn't obscure a women's identity.

[–]jet199 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Banning them for young children in schools is a start. Many Muslims agree with that.

[–]oyasuminasai50 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The same pass is given to Islam in the name of LGBT rights despite homosexuality being punishable by death in many Muslim-majority countries. Yet these same people are still boycotting Chick-fil-A? Shows that despite how progressive they claim to be, they assume their experiences of life in the West are applicable to the whole world.

[–]tuesday 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I believe you. Years ago i said similar and even the radical feminists jumped down my throat.

/not allowed to be irritated here... or FUCKING ANGRY!!!

/hangs out at pink pill...

[–]vitunrotta[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, the vitriol (from other feminists!) I've received for even the subtlest hint of "opposing" opinion has been a real bummer. But well. I'm done, finally. Done shutting up about this.

[–]Shinjin_Nana 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is one of the differences between liberal feminism and radical feminism. Liberal feminism sees choices in a vacuum (she CHOOSES to wear the hijab or be a prostitute, or wear makeup... etc), while radical feminism is the opposite (culture DICTATES what is appropriate for a woman to do and socializes her that way)

[–]vitunrotta[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

All my posts are basically labeled as "NSFW" now. What is "not safe for work" about this? Is this some U.S. horseshit again? I honestly don't get it? Please explain in clear terms.

[–]Anna_Nym 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't see your post labeled as NSFW, for whatever that's worth.

What do you want to talk about with hijab?

[–]ThisReality 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't see NSFW labels on their posts either

[–]vitunrotta[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have no clue. For me it flagged NSFW instantly, no matter what I have posted. Then I clicked on something like "Disagree" and it vanished so... Probably just a safeguard in place - it flags all posts NSFW automatically and you as the OP can then choose if it really is or isn't. (Unsure if that's the case, just theorizing here.) Edit: grammar

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't get what you mean by "finally" - this was discussed frequently on the old GC.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And I was not a part of the old GC (lurked on other subreddits mainly and that's it). I have already explained myself in previous comments re: mainly libfems/intersectionals who have in many cases literally banned discussing this topic on many platforms. Read my other comments if you need more info, I don't want to keep repeating myself ad aeternum.

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I see. I normally don't pay much attention to usernames in the threads and it's not clearly marked who the OP is like it was on reddit, so it gets confusing.

I actually feel like this community has gotten less interested in normal women's rights discussions over time.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Understandable. Didn't mean to sound snarky, either. Why don't you start a discussion regarding some topic you find interesting/less spoken of? I'd be curious to read it.

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

TBH I'm not on here much because I'm busy. But I will when I have the time to.