Explanation of non-binary that's not sexist?

submitted by bradjohnsonishere2 from self.GenderCritical

Every non-binary person I know explains they don't "feel like a man or a woman" and they hate skirts, or want to wear make up. Great, you don't need to become non-binary to do those things. Also, it kind of irks me... it implies that every one else is within the binary. I'm a woman, I don't wear make up or skirts or shave my legs. That doesn't make me less of a woman. I'm a woman because I was born with a vagina and two X chromosomes. Has any one heard an explanation for non-binary identities that's not rooted in sexist stereotypes? Or some sort of "I'm too special to be a man or a woman" narcissistic mindset?

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[–]oyasuminasai50 68 insightful - 23 fun68 insightful - 22 fun69 insightful - 23 fun -  (1 child)

Being enby challenges the gender binary the same way being a non-voter challenges the two party political system in America... which is to say, not one fucking bit.

[–]bradjohnsonishere2[S] 18 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Love this explanation lol.

[–]Literallyawoman 47 insightful - 13 fun47 insightful - 12 fun48 insightful - 13 fun -  (7 children)

People who identify as non-binary are just the new emo kids trying to be edgy, different, and unique. If an adult tells me they're non-binary I safely assume they're not doing so hot in life and probably have a shit service job and no meaningful relationships.

[–]denverkris 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

fucking lmao

[–]Complicated-Spirit 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

“What’s your gender? Are you non-binary? Transgender? Agender? Demigender? Femmeboi? Boifemme? Genderfluid? Pangender?”

“I don’t have a gender. I have this thing called an ‘individual personality’ that actually makes all that redundant. It’s a much more cost-effective option, emotionally.”

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

My single data point says you might be about half right. I am an adult and I am nonbinary. My life is an employment scheme for my therapist. Self-employed in my dream job. Small number of great relationships.

[–]Hard_headed_woman 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that you are gender non-conforming? After all, you do have a sex.

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not at all: I pretty much entirely conform to the gender expression expected for my sex. Trans people can be gender conforming or gender nonconforming. Many binary trans people in particular seem to expend great effort conforming to a narrow stereotype of their gender.

Sex is immutable, but I have changed my sex characteristics to match my nonbinary gender identity.

[–]Literallyawoman 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gender isn’t real everyone is non binary bruh. You still have a dick or a vagina

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with sex being real and immutable. Gender identity is entirely subjective so there is no way of determining if some else's gender identity is real, nor should anyone be able to demand behaviour from others based on their gender identity. It has a lot in common with other belief systems like deeply held religious convictions. The main difference is the desire to change sex characteristics, but then there are cis people who do this too, so even surgical transition is not proof. I wish trans people stopped acting like what was in their heads defined reality for other people.

[–]VioletRemi 49 insightful - 6 fun49 insightful - 5 fun50 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Every non-binary and gender theory explanation I've ever heard are both sexist and homophobic. They are cementing sexist stereotypes and "classic" gender roles in stone by their actions and ideologies.

[–]GenCritAllDay 42 insightful - 4 fun42 insightful - 3 fun43 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

I have never read or heard one.

Any NB woman I've met is basically a tomboy with a bob or pixie haircut who is into science, tech, math, or dinosaurs. I work with a man who identifies as NB; he's essentially a gay man who likes to bake and paint his nails.

I'm a muscular woman with a math degree who likes dinosaurs, science and to bake and paint my nails. I am not special; I'm still a woman. It's called having interests and a personality.

[–]LasagnaRossa 24 insightful - 2 fun24 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

In a certain way, this NB bullshit is the modern fruit of plain old sexism: men are good in maths, logic and leadership and women are good in cooking and caretaking. If you fall outside the rule, you're a freak and should be aligned.

[–]Wandering_Idiot 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Also a woman who absolutely loves dinosaurs and I have no idea how the fuck it ever became a 'man' thing. It's literally rocks and fossils. How the fuck does that have a gender stereotype? On a side note this year they found a almost complete tail for a Spinosaurus! They had essentially a newt tail which gives us a good look into what their daily life would have been like (methods of locomotion and mostly aquatic).

[–]firebird 30 insightful - 5 fun30 insightful - 4 fun31 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

A while ago I went over to the non-binary subreddit to find an answer to that exact question. The vast majority of the posts were about how they should present themselves so that people would recognize them as non-binary and stuff like that.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's fine to have a community where people can talk about dressing/having hairstyles/doing make up in a way that's creative and doesn't make you look like a stereotype, I simply don't get why it has to framed the way they do it. And that sub definitely has not given me an answer.

[–]bradjohnsonishere2[S] 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah I've been lurking on that sub for a while because I'm really trying to understand because I have friends that are non-binary and they're good (if misguided) people. That whole sub is very cringe...

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am nonbinary and I find r/nonbinary very cringe. The whole sub consists almost entirely of selfie image posts. I have to go about four pages in to find a single text post worth my time. It all seems quite performative to me. I often wonder how many enbies have considered whether they are cis and gender nonconforming, rather than nonbinary. I try to promote this as an option to questioners who display no signs of gender dysphoria.

[–]zephyranthes 9 insightful - 21 fun9 insightful - 20 fun10 insightful - 21 fun -  (0 children)

Here's an exhaustive list.

[–]LeyMio 18 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

The whole non-binary thing is extremely sexist. Why would a mentally sane person even label every single one of their behaviours as "feeling like a man or a woman"?? I was born a female and that is a biological fact. My gender does not change no matter I want to wear pants or skirts. My gender does not change no matter I want to play with dolls or video games. My gender does not change no matter I prefer pink or blue color. Like, could the TRAs even develop any bit of common sense?? Just because I like eating pizza as an Asian does not mean that I feel like a trans-caucasian. Being somewhere between the "feminine" or "masculine" does not make a person special.

[–]itsnotaboutewe 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I've had this argument and got dizzy from such tight circling.

Them: I don't feel like a man or a woman. I am non-binary. Me: I don't feel like a man or a woman. I just feel like me. Them: That makes you non-binary. Me: But I don't identify as non-binary. I don't identify with any gender or non-gender, so what am I? Them: If you don't identify as anything then your gender is your birth sex, so you are a woman. Me: But I don't feel like a woman..................

[–]Complicated-Spirit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I absolutely hate how some people like to “diagnose” others with a gender. Some really do like to push the NB thing on others and it’s just...ugh. I actually had someone on Reddit try to get me to admit I was “agender” and JUST STOP IT. If you had me a card that has boxes on it, I’m not going to check the “best-fitting” box. Even if there’s a million boxes. I’m going to tear the card apart and throw the pieces in your face.

[–]Confuzzled 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’ve had a similar experience, except after the “I don’t identify with feeling like a woman or nonbinary” TRAs usually say I must be Agender...

[–]jkfinn 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Because of the necessity to invoke biology as a primary argument vs trans, there's been an eclipse of the socially constructed principle that was so central to radical feminism. This is where sex expectations were roundly criticized, esp the feminization and sexualization of women (or gender). To counter this socialization of females by males was, in effect, a form of undermining the false distinctions and differences between men and women, upon which much of women's oppression is based. This goes much further than the concept of non-binary and is far more radical and effective. There can be no non-binary if women are liberated from their marked off, enemy status.

[–]endless_assfluff 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

There's a class of non-binary-identified women who use it as a coping mechanism for rape or sexual assault, like they don't want other people to perceive them as a woman anymore because they want to escape from the problems being female has caused, and I can't convince myself whether that's subtly sexist or just counterproductive.

The ones I've met are often either lesbian or bisexual and terrified of men. They've internalized that being born female means there's something horribly, horribly wrong with them, that they're going to keep being punished for it their whole lives, and that they're powerless to fix. So, like, super-relatable. It's like they're self-centered but not narcissistic, because they've been taught to ruminate on how wrong and awful and broken they are. They respect other people's femininity but hate their own. They almost get it---I've seen many de-transition and peak---but need time and therapy to accept their femininity.

I guess that's internalized sexism against the self.

[–]sisterinsomnia 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I haven't found a general explanation that wouldn't put everyone else into the binary categories. That assumes that those binary people are content with extremely retrogressive gender roles. This is insulting, especially as many if not most people are gender nonbinary in terms of hobbies, interests, personality types and so on but if they don't get the label they are not allowed to be seen as such.

But yes, there are some nonbinary people who seem to use that identity to protect themselves after traumatic experiences and also as a stepping-stone in the stream they are crossing to either transition or detransition. Like a temporary identity but it may become permanent, too.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

All of genderism and the speshul identities based on it have sexism and rigid, regressive sex stereotypes at their core.

[–]Hard_headed_woman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sure about this. I think a lot of them have "specialism" at their core. They can't commit to being transgender or lesbian (because they aren't), so they're non-binary and are suddenly part of the alphabet crowd. They're suddenly oppressed and have a cause to fight.

[–]MezozoicGay 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I've never heard any explanation of non-binary that was explaining non-binary at all. Maximum I've heard was "I am a bit different from 'standart' stereotype".

[–]PlayCardsNotPeople 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's a way for some neuro non-typical people to make sense of the world.

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People on the autism spectrum are well overrepresented in the trans community.

[–]Shesstealthy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only solid thought I have on this is remembering the weird disjunct of being called "madam" or "miss/mrs stealthy" or "that lady" when I was younger. It didn't feel right but not due to the femaleness per se, rather, i now realise, to the shock that people saw me as an adult. Young me might have taken this as evidence of enbyness.

[–]Shinjin_Nana 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They've been lied to to think that you have to have genderfeelz at all.

I ~am~ a woman. I don't genderfeelz like a woman. It is simply a fact of my existence.

So when they say they don't have genderfeelz it means they're a normal human being who has been gaslit.

[–]spicyramen 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

For some of the nb females I know it seems like they're dysphoric about their female bodily features, but they dont see themselves as men--thus, non binary. More of a physical than an aesthetic issue. But it's definitely true that there are a lot of girls out their calling themselves nb bc theyre "not like other girls"

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes: gender dysphoria.

[–]catoboros 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

My explanation would likely be interpreted as advocating trans ideology, so please ask your question on s/GCdebatesQT so as to not annoy the mods of this sub.

It would be nice if the old wiki was migrated to this sub so that the full rules are available for reference.

[–]mambean 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Basically a "gender" that exists inbetween "female" or "male", or is neither. We're still waiting for the elaboration of what gender actually is, but as soon as we do we'll let you know.