all 19 comments

[–]GConly 40 insightful - 2 fun40 insightful - 1 fun41 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Don't confuse desist with detransition. Not the same thing.

Desistance is when kids grow out of gender dysphoria.

Detransition is when adults who used medical interventions to look like the opposite sex stop the hormones and start presenting as their actual sex again.

Desistance is typically about 85% in the old research looking at the kids who presented with GD prior to 2015. We've no idea what it's going to be in ROGD girls . I'm guessing closer to 100%. There's been no research at all.

The current ROGD wave is rather fudging the difference between them, as they aren't being given time to see if they desist before they are transitioning. 15 year olds with mastectomies...

Adult regret and detrans is unclear as hell because the research only looks at SRS cases and has massive issues with failing to keep track of post op patients and time frame of the studies.

Next time you argue with a TRA be sure to pick them up for subbing post op detrans data for children's desistance rates. They do it all the time.

[–][deleted] 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

While I agree that desistance is not the same as detransition (detransision involves the reversal of medical intervention as you said), it is not simply "when kids grow out of gender dysphoria". To desist is to stop identifying as trans or some flavor of nonbinary. Many adults desist. The first American who legally identified as nonbinary was an adult and ended up desisting. Many desisters, myself included, still experience dysphoria to varying degrees. On r/detrans many threads are about how to cope with that. We just stop trying to identify out of our birth sex.

[–]GConly 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Many adults desist.

An excellent point.

[–]3MistersAndAMissy 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you.

This is a very important distinction

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

13 year olds with mastectomies.

Olson had 68 surgically diminished girls fill out her “novel” scale (which she acknowledged could be bogus) between one and five years after their surgery. Thirty-three of these girls were under 18 at the time of surgery. Two were only 13 years old, and five were only 14.

The vocal activists always claim this doesn't happen, but there is very clear evidence to the contrary.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

More on this doctor:

Younger’s lawyer, Logan Odeneal, asked Olson-Kennedy whether it is safe or ethical to remove healthy breast tissue from adolescent girls as young as 13, as has been recommended at her clinic.

Odeneal: Well, if you remove the breasts from a young woman, she will never be able to lactate or to breastfeed an infant; is that correct?

Olson-Kennedy: Well, I, I don’t advocate removal for breast tissue from young women. I advocate for chest reconstruction in young men.

Odeneal: Well haven’t you referred girls to have the chest surgery from your clinic?

Olson-Kennedy: They’re, they’re, they’re not girls. They’re not girls. They don’t identify as girls. So I have referred people who identify as transmasculine or as boys or young men for surgery, yes.

Odeneal: But do their birth certificates identify them as girls?

Olson-Kennedy: Sometimes, and sometimes they’ve had their gender marker changed on their birth certificate.

Odeneal: How many patients have you referred for the chest surgery?

Olson-Kennedy: Probably about 200.

Why is the mainstream media not reporting on this? It's a fucking tragedy what is happening to these children.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I never considered that trans medicalization went this far. Ty for sharing these horrifying perspectives. I find this doctor's attitude and financial stake in mutilation deeply troubling.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's crazy. This particular doctor has apparently put an 8 year on testosterone. Not blockers, testosterone.

She's a pediatrician specializing in transitioning minors, and her FTM spouse is an affirmative gender therapist. They are both heavily personally and professionally invested in the medicalization of GNC children.

Where is the public outcry?

[–]lunarenergy8[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

From what I have read, to even question this is to be deemed transphobic, so people are scared to speak up, to denounce anything, as it can lead to loss of employment and other social repercussions and threats. Which is messed up

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's fucked up because the general public doesn't know. If they knew, they would care. What person in their right mind is okay with children that young being medicalized? I guess our only hope is to persuade mainstream journalists to do investigative reporting. This is happening in the UK already. It should be possible to make it happen here.

[–]lunarenergy8[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for pointing this out and for the additional points of research.

Any research to anything that questions the affirmation model seems to be deemed transphobic and shut down. Worrying and does not seem to have actual best interest in mind. Breaks my heart knowing young women (and men) are receiving irreversible surgeries being fully supported without any questioing.

I was stunned when I read about the lack of follow up with patients, really shows the lack of actual care for people, in my opinion anyways.

Thanks again for the clarifying and info!

[–]kwallio 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Also trans brigade has not allowed research into detransitioners or the effectiveness of transition at alleviating dysphoria because its ~transphobic for some time. So no one really knows the effectiveness of transition or the rates of detransition.

[–]lunarenergy8[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

so much this - reading accounts of researchers who are being defunded or blocked in other ways from pursuing or publishing studies that go against the affirmation model plus the psychotherapists who have had their licenses revoked for practicing the watchful waiting method or other practitioners who just go along with the affirmation based model for fear of consequences is terrifying and is really what has peaked me to the point of no return.

[–]poisona7 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

0.4-1.7% seems very generous

[–]lunarenergy8[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

it does indeed, but I have seen stats for all sorts of figures including and in between those two numbers ... I think the 1.7% might include some Intersex conditions, since for some reason TRAs and some accompnying research love to include Intersex as part of the trans umbrella ...

[–]Complicated-Spirit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Here’s the thing.

If detransitioners exist, they have the right to tell their stories. That’s it. End of story. Period.

Their experiences are real. Their lives are real. It will be a cold day in hell when I’ll agree that anyone’s real-life experience should be shut up, silenced, put away, never allowed to be brought up because of someone else’s agenda.

I’m a firm supporter of BLM. But if a white person got assaulted by a black person on the basis of their skin color, I’m not going to say that that white person shouldn’t talk about it, that they should keep it to themselves, that they shouldn’t try to seek justice for their own individual suffering, like it doesn’t matter.

I’m a radical feminist. But if a man is physically abused by his female partner, I’m not going to tell him to never seek help for it, never see a therapist about it, never talk to another person about it, because when you really think about it, his life really isn’t all that important.

I have a religion. But I’m not going to demand that people that have left that religion have their voices silenced over the fact that they left it, the reasons they did so, and why they’re not going back, because my comfort in my religion supersedes their discomfort within it.

I don’t understand how anyone can chant “TRANS RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS” and then demand that people who are actually living through real-life traumatic experiences be forcefully shut up because of the bullshit reasoning that “it hurts trans people’s feelings so it must be banned”. Trans rights is really the only movement that places so much emphasis on the obligation of the public to personally validate its core group, that it’s considered a serious, must-be-crushed threat to their existence to leave it.

[–]lunarenergy8[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


Up until about 2 years ago or so, I was quite firm in wanting to stand with this ideology because I felt like what could be wrong with wanting to be more inclusive and make sure everyone feels safe and like they can voice their lived experiences without fear of judgement, and live authentically, etc. Then I realised that is not at all what it is about, that only certain lived experiences are deemed valid and should be listened to.

It makes me really sad to see so many people be more or less told to sit down, shut up, and make sure no one hears about it because it doesn't fit neatly into the box that has been created. Your last sentence really is perfectly put.

Thanks for your input! (:

[–]emptiedriver 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is an excellent comparison. Even if detransition is a tiny percentage (which as we know it probably isn't) it is still a very important potential error and needs to be taken seriously. If you really support trans rights, you should be highlighting this not hiding it - don't let people make what will turn out to be a tragic choice that casts a shadow over the whole movement. It's not for everyone, obviously! But, all the same, almost everyone has a range of feelings about their body and who they are, especially in adolescence, so it's not surprising that given the option plenty of young girls would be open to physically altering themselves... piercing, tattoos, starvation, surgery, linked experiments in a common search.

If being trans is a healthy medical prescription that should be recognized as necessary and protected, not just adolescent trends, then why stop gatekeeping? It seems like it would only result in positive outcomes...