Am I the only one who *kind of* believes in transsexualism as a valid thing?

submitted by gencritcurious from self.GenderCritical

There are 2 genders, and they're both inherently tied to sex. Most people are born male/female and stay that way, but I do think it's possible to become a neo-female or a neo-male, and in effect, become a woman or a man socially. Some trans people are able to get astoundingly good results from surgery/hrt, and I feel like if you have estrogen(synthetic or not), a neo-vagina, a feminine face, and breasts, you're a woman to general society. Same thing goes for trans men. I know that surgery cannot replicate a natural body part, but theres something to be said about the fact that lesbians/straight men are not attracted to people like buck angel/ vice versa for transwomen. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's kind of delusional to say that passable trans people aren't their identified genders (socially at least), and neo-females/males get treated the same as regular females/males when they pass. They're different, sure, but at the end of the day, its more or less the same experience as a biological woman/man.

I dont think that neo-females belong in female-only spaces like reproductive health/similar things, but I do think they belong in spaces that are for WOMEN, like the public bathroom. IMO people can become women, but they cannot become true females, which is why i make the neo-female distinction

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[–]marmalade 51 insightful - 2 fun51 insightful - 1 fun52 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

No, men cannot become women, and transwomen do not belong in women only spaces. There are no genders, there are two sexes that humans can be. A man with plastic surgery and a surgically created wound is noy the same as a woman. They should be treated with respect and compassion, but they are not women and they do not share in or care about womens' struggles. We do not have the same struggles. The terms 'neo-female/male' are insidious and inaccurate.

I thought you were going to make a point about old school transsexualism, not this nonsense.

Really, all this is very elaborate and just makes me wonder what your answer is for the distinct lack of historical or contemporary examples of TIMs standing up for the rights of women, if they supposedly 'are women.'

[–]MezozoicGay 27 insightful - 5 fun27 insightful - 4 fun28 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

become a woman or a man socially

That is the conflict with gender ideologists. There should not be "man" or "woman" socially. And "loving to cook" must not be "he is woman" socially. Wearing comfortable cloths must not be "man socially". And so on.

If they want to put themselves into some categories and live like they want - sure, no problem there.

If they want to put everyone in some sexist categories and then force everyone else to act like they in those categories and change their gender or sex, or sexuality, or to change anything at all, based on categories - here comes huge problem.

That is what differs LGB from current TQ+ movements. And hell, even from old transsexual movement. LGB and old transsexuals (I know and friend with around dozen of transsexuals who are 20+ years after transition, most are HSTS, but few are straight, and all of them are gender critical) all wanted to be unnoticed, to live lifes without being hated or without being pointed with finters and laughed or beaten out. To have same rights as everyone. While TQ+ movement require all those neo-pronounses from other people, require special statues, require to be noticed and centered everywhere, require spaces of other people to include them (why Vancouver Transgender's Library is only for transgenders, but Vancouver Women's Library must be for women and transgenders? Why they can exclude others, but others must include them?), demanding young kids being transitioned even if they are just slightly dysphoric (most gay men are disphoric in childhod - I was too, for example; most teen girls are not comfortable with changes in their bodies too), and so on.

And big minus is that gender ideologists are returning very strict gender roles and gender stereotypes back. Throwing us back 100 years ago. And society already accepted women wearing "men's cloths" and pants, accepted men wearing "bright colors", few more years and I could finally wear my toga and not being laughed out (during hot weather toga is top tier cloths, comfortable and not hot). Maybe there would appear skirts and dresses designed for male body types, like it was in ancient world. But no, everything was thrown back because of reinforcing gender and sexist stereotypes again.

If they just wanted to live - no one would have a problem. Problem is that they not just want to live, they demand much more in expense of everyone else (especially LGB, old school transsexuals and women are suffering from this).

and neo-females/males get treated the same as regular females/males when they pass

No they don't. They are still oppressed based on their reproductive systems. Does transwoman feel tampon tax? Does transwoman must think about pregnancy? Why transmen are still abused "to make kids" even when they have beards? So no, they only feel "gender role expectance" from society, and that is it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like if you have estrogen(synthetic or not), a neo-vagina, a feminine face, and breasts, you're a woman to general society.

it's kind of delusional to say that passable trans people aren't their identified genders (socially at least) and neo-females/males get treated the same as regular females/males when they pass. They're different, sure, but at the end of the day, its more or less the same experience as a biological woman/man.

How about you ask your mum, gran, elderly aunts and all the women over 50 you know what they think?

Women who've spent many decades living in the real world are likely to have had a large number of life experiences that males who pretend to be women - and even those you think supposedly "pass" as women - will never, ever experience: such as fear of pregnancy; maternity and pregnancy discrimination; lack of access to female birth control; pregnancy scares, unwanted pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage; female fertility issues; cystitis; PCOS; gynecological disease, uterine, vaginal or cervical cancer; "morning sickness," pre-eclampsia, and both the achievement and fear of giving birth and the horrors of childbirth injuries; mastitis; peri-menopause; menopause; pelvic organ prolapse; late-in-life vaginal atrophy and associated pelvic pain due to aging... and so on.

You say that males who "pass" as women "get treated the same" as females. But no male will ever be subjected to the shame and stigma routinely HEAPED on girls and women for having female bodies that go through female-only physical processes like menstruation, pregnancy, birth, lactation, breastfeeding, menstrual cramps, PMS, endometriosis, menopause, and pelvic organ prolapse.

Males who take cross-sex hormones and get sexually aroused and ecstatic when they start to grow breasts have no idea what it's like to be an 10, 11 or 12 year-old girl whose whole life has been turned upside down by the fact that through no doing of her own, she suddenly has sprouted breasts and can no longer participate in the sports she loves because her breasts hurt when she runs and jumps, or her breasts are so big they get in the way.

Males who take cross-sex hormones and get sacs of gel or fluid implanted into their chest love flaunting their "tiddies" and "boobies" in public - and many of them report being thrilled when they get cat-called by men coz it's "validating." Whereas millions of girls and women walk around with shoulders hunched, breasts hidden under layers of loose clothes, or flattened by self-harming binders, because we/they feel embarrassment, horror and self-loathing due to the constant, inescapable cat-calling and sexual harassment that strange men subject us to simply because we are female and have natural female breasts and bodies.

No males, not even the prettiest ones, who get sexually assaulted will ever have to worry about getting pregnant. No male, no matter how many cross-sex hormones and "feminizing" surgeries he gets, will ever have a clue what it's like to grow a new human being inside his body; he will never get what an enormous amount of effort, sacrifice and energy it entails, and how it involves every fibre of a pregnant woman's being; and he will never know just how simultaneously otherworldly, strange and utterly natural and normal it feels. No male, no matter how good he is at flicking his long hair around and wearing makeup and acting "girly" will ever have the slightest idea of the sheer terror and pain of childbirth, and the range of feelings - both pleasurable and unpleasant - it can bring.

Males who want to be and pretend to be females don't get condescended to and "pooh-poohed" by medical professionals the way female people routinely do. On the contrary, doctors and medicine cater to these males. Male scientists, doctors, hospital administrators and researchers have created a whole new field of medicine and all sorts of new "therapies" and surgeries to cater to the every whim of these males. What's more, male lobbyists, public policy makers and health insurance industry execs have arranged things so that now most or all the costs of cross-sex hormones, feminizing surgeries and all other "trans affirming care" have to be paid for by the larger society - be it taxpayers, or everyone else who pays private insurance premiums.

Meanwhile, female health conditions that are disabling to many millions of women like endometriosis and pudendal neuralgia get only a tiny amount of funding and research - or none at all.

But yeah, guys who pretend to be females and in your opinion "pass" as females get treated exactly the same as females do. No difference at all...la la la

[–]worried19 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You might want to join us over on s/GCdebatesQT. You'll probably get more receptive answers there, and we can use more posters.

[–]jelliknight 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You sound like you're on the path, but you're still in the thick bushes. Keep going, there's a clearing ahead.

There are 2 genders, and they're both inherently tied to sex.

What is a gender, and what do you mean "inherantly" tied to sex? Here in GC we believe that 'gender' is the set of social roles, rules and expectations pushed on a person because of their sex. Genders are not 'inherent' (existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute) because they vary across time and cultures in arbitrary ways. Leggings and high heels used to be worn exclusively by men. Kilts are for men. Pink used to be for boys. Computing used to be 'for women' and now it's well paid it's 'for men'.

Most people are born male/female and stay that way,

Everyone stays that way. No one has ever changed sex. It can't be done. Sex is defined by the potential role you would play in sexual reproduction (it's why the sexes exist in the first place) - would you be impregnated, or impregnator? No human has ever produced both sperm and egg, or switched from producing one to producing the other.

become a woman or a man socially.

What does it mean to be 'socially' a man or a woman? I have short hair, wear pants, don't wear make up and work only in male dominated fields. Am I "socially a man"? Or is it only people who lie about their sex who become "socially" the opposite sex?

Some trans people are able to get astoundingly good results from surgery/hrt

A lot of people think legless lizards are snakes. They aren't. Just because it kind of looks like something doesn't make it so. And in this case we're talking about extensive cosmetic surgery. There's a guy who had craploads of cosmetic surgery to make himself look like a Ken Doll. Did he become a Ken Doll? No. He became a man who's had craploads of surgery. He now 'identifies as a woman'. If you can think he's a 'neo-woman' because he had surgery to look like one, then you must also believe that he was a 'neo-ken doll'. There's other people who've had surgery to look like cats and dragons.

I feel like if you have estrogen(synthetic or not), a neo-vagina, a feminine face, and breasts, you're a woman to general society

You're not though. Women are not A La Carte. You can't pick and mix enough 'female-ish' attributes and make a woman. The only thing that makes a person a woman is being an adult female human. Otherwise, you also have to say that a post menopausal woman with masculine features and a mastectomy is no longer a woman. If you've ever had testicles you're for sure a bloke and there's no amount of surgery that changes that, for the same reason there's nothing that can happen to a woman that makes her no longer a woman.

theres something to be said about the fact that lesbians/straight men are not attracted to people like buck angel/ vice versa for transwomen.

There is a valid point to be made here. People like Buck have never existed before in the past. Humans evolved secondary sex characteristics making it possible to tell with almost 100% accuracy which sex a person is with a microsecond glance. It's almost impossible for a man to alter his secondary sex characteristics to the point where it's possible to mistake him for a woman, but women who take testosterone can become convincing facsimiles of men, if they already had a slight masculine frame. Testosterone is a one way street, and our brains did not evolve with a need to be able to identify women like Buck. However, I think it's fair to say that most people of either sex are not attracted to either type of transsexual. Transition generally involves removing sex characteristics. For example, a TIM will attempt to remove all the characteristics that make him attractive as a man (adams apple, beard, etc), but they will not be able to add many of the characteristics that make women attractive (waist-hip ratio, for example). People who physically transition are essentially deliberately giving themselves a severe intersex condition, altering their hormonal balance (pheromones play a huge role in attraction), and often making themselves sterile. The result is a person with a mix of sexual characteristics that seem to throw up a "this person is sick - not a viable mate" flag deep in the subconscious mind.

Passing is mostly a myth. Buck is the one exception I know of where you wouldn't know from looking at him. It's usually very obvious from watching a person walk (men and womens hips and gaits are dramatically different and that doesn't change), and at best it raises confusion. You might be 99% sure that the person with long hair and lipstick is a man, but best not to cause offence on the off chance you're wrong. That being said, even if people SAY they believe he's a woman, they still treat him like a man, and vice versa. There was an article on here recently about a TIM raping and attempting to impregnate a TIF. TIM's still get male privilege and TIFs still experience misogyny when people suspect their actual sex (most of the time).

They're different, sure, but at the end of the day, its more or less the same experience as a biological woman/man.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Being a man in bio drag is nowhere near the same experience as being a woman. I was THIRTY before i understood how my body actually works (ladies, FAM is where it's at) because women's biology isn't even on the radar. Medical science barely understands how our bodies react to drugs. We're discriminated against in employment and politics, while men in drag are given the places which were intended to get us fair representation. Tell me where the overlap is in Bruce Jenner's experiences and mine?

I dont think that neo-females belong in female-only spaces like reproductive health/similar things, but I do think they belong in spaces that are for WOMEN, like the public bathroom.

Men do not belong in womens spaces. Those spaces are FOR US. If you can at least recognise that your "neo women" are a different category, then fight for them to have their own bathrooms. Their own sports, and their own scholarships. You have no right to take away what women have spent hundreds of years fighting for.

IMO people can become women

Only if they are born female human babies, then grow up.

but they cannot become true females

Woman means adult human female. Taking it to mean anything else is sexist. "Person who looks feminine", "Person who gets treated as the lesser half of society", "person who may be sexually objectified". Seriously, come up with a non-sexist definition of "woman" that doesn't include the fact that we are the female half of the human sex?

"Females" is a group that refers to mares, heifers, flowers, and electrical sockets. There needs to be a name for the group of humans historically and continually discriminated against in every aspect of society based on their biological sex. And that word is WOMAN.

[–]MezozoicGay 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

(waist-hip ratio, for example).

This and many other things are actually there only because of skeletal and muscular structures. No man can have hips like woman and woman's gait. It is just impossible without complete removal of a skeleton.

Here was interesting discussion with links and great videos about that: https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/5ski/so_much_to_unpack_here_womans_body_femme_clothes/mguu

[–]Complicated-Spirit 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Psychology and mental health took a giant step back when it was decided, back in the age of castrating gay men to “cure” them, that the solution to feeling as though one was born in the wrong body was to mutilate it until it resembled the opposite sex, and pump it full of pharmaceutical hormones until it drops dead. It was back when therapy was taking a back seat to more “modern and scientific” interventions like popping pills and slicing someone’s brain open. So much could have been addressed and researched and a genuine, real cure could have been found. But no.

If you have depression, is the progressive, science-based treatment the one in which you’re allowed to take your own life at will? What about DID - should we invent some kind of artificial, plasticized skin that can change appearance drastically, perhaps with the touch of a button on a remote control, so the sufferer’s current alter can be represented accurately? Should people with BIID have healthy limbs cut off? If you’re anorexic with a considerable case of BDD, should your medical care team work together to create the most skeletal body possible for you, because that’s what you want, and that’s what you see as your ideal, rather than the body you have now?

One wonders why all of these things were anathema, whereas SRS and lifelong hormonal treatment to “turn a man into a woman” and vice-versa got the green light. Honestly, I wonder how much of it had to do with sheer fascination rather than any real interest in the long-time well-being of patients.

[–]CleverNickName 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's the one baffling thing I never knew how to put into words. Other conditions where what I see in the mirror, or feel when thinking about myself, is "wrong" to me, and they are treated by the root-cause. Why not sex dysphoria? Especially since I have never seen any real convincing argument as to how perceived gender can be innate at all, and it always boils down to gender stereotypes, and those are all taught in the first place, so they can definitely be un-taught. Everyone unlearns numerous gender stereotypes in the course of their life.

It's encouraged regression. The world isn't going to be a better place if men are "allowed" to become women and women are "allowed" to become men. The world will be a better place when women can be whatever kind of person they want to be, and men can be whatever kind of person they want to be.

[–]jelliknight 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you have depression, is the progressive, science-based treatment the one in which you’re allowed to take your own life at will

This is already a thing in 'progressive' countries. A dutch 17 year old was given euthanasia for depression. People trying to hard to be "woke" they forgot how to be good.

[–]SarahSaysSure 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wasn’t that a misunderstanding from translated news sources? I thought she died of starvation instead.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, it was a matter of misreporting. I just posted a couple of links above.

[–]YoutiaoLover 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's heartbreaking. I had severe depression a few years back, was suicidal and now I'm really grateful to be alive. That teen needed help. "Progressive" nowadays is literal poison to humanity.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you mean Noa Pothoven, it's not true she was given euthanasia; the press reports saying she did were in error. Pothven's request for euthanasia was turned down by Dutch health authorities.

She died at home after she stopped drinking and eating. But apparently she had family and a doctor who went along with this, which is unusual. In most countries, and in most families, a troubled minor so intent on self-destruction would be put in a hospital where she'd be put on IV drip hydration and some sort of forced or tube feeding. And she'd be given intensive in-patient psychotherapy, and every possible anti-depressant med and therapy would be tried, including ECT and IV Ketamine.

In the countries where euthanasia is allowed, it's rarely done for solely psychiatric reasons - it's usually done for people who are suffering horribly due to physical illnesses that are terminal and incurable and the agony of which is not easily reduced by painkillers - like cystic fibrosis, Huntington's and certain advanced cancers.

https://www.insider.com/noa-pothoven-dutch-euthanasia-clinic-address-media-error-2019-6

https://www.insider.com/noa-pothoven-teen-death-puts-spotlight-on-europe-euthanasia-laws-2019-6

[–]Shesstealthy 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

No. I believe some people are trans. There are multiple genders but only two sexes. I'm fully in support of people saying they feel more feminine or more masculine or like a mix etc. What bothers me is the deepening expectation that one always needs to DO something about that, to alter the body. To medicalise something normal and sign up to lifetime costs.

I don't understand why a male who presents as male but feels.feminine inside needs to use women's toilets. I'm down with TW who are presenting a different gender using them. I'm not down with TW forcing women and kids to call their exposed bodies female. I'm not down with medically transing kids. I'm not down with working class girls saying goodbye to sports scholarships.

[–]slushpilot 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There are multiple genders

Hmm, there are?

Are they discrete things with their own characteristics? What would make something count as a gender rather than a personality trait, a fashion clique, a medical condition, or something else in that case? What is it based on?

Or, is it like points on a continuum along a spectrum? If it is a spectrum, then what dimension is its axis and its limit at both ends? Oh, right—a spectrum has two ends. We usually call those "masculine" and "feminine"... so two genders then?

Or can you name a third?

[–]Shesstealthy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Fa'fafine is a recognised gender. A fa'fafine is male but lives "in the manner of a woman". They are not a woman in their culture. They're not a man though their maleness is acknowledged. They are a fa'fafine. There's nothing wrong with acknowedging culturally inscribed gender identity. It's when we pretend that sex is fake that we have a problem.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The fa'fafine also compete in male sports and do not try to invade or insinuate themselves into female spaces and programs.

[–]Shesstealthy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yea exactly. They are not women.

[–]slushpilot 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

As far as I can tell, we're still at two. "in the manner of a woman" just means feminine, and "in the manner of a man" means masculine. There is nothing new or "third" here. It actually sounds fundamentally sexist.

Whether we agree that wearing a dress and cooking are the domain of women is the more interesting question.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

LOL, what's with this idea that cooking is the domain of women? Most/nearly all the greatest and most acclaimed chefs in various countries and cultures have been men, not women.

Amongst the people I know from my generation (Boomer) who grew up in the USA, UK, Europe and parts of East Asia, the guys were/are much more likely to be into cooking and the culinary arts than the women. I (born 1955) have never had any interest in cooking, and I frankly suck at anything beyond grilled cheese, oatmeal and toast - but the majority of my boyfriends were into and quite skilled at cooking, as was the man I finally chose to marry.

[–]slushpilot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Haha, I think cooking got in my head as an example because I was referencing the Wikipedia article that mentioned Cook Islands. It did specifically mention dress, though so I got that part right. (I was making a point about gendered expectations more generally... and those home duties like cooking do most often fall on mothers.)

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. There are no genders.

[–]luckystar 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree with you. This is why I can never go full radfem, because I do believe transexual people exist, I just think they are a tiny group of people who've been drowned out by fetishists, cross dressers, special snowflakes, and other trenders.

I am a gender abolitionist too, but I also recognize that gender exists in our current society and I think for people who have crippling gender dysphoria diagnosed by doctors/psychotherapists and go through the medical steps (hormones, surgeries, etc) I am okay with viewing them as women. (with notable exceptions for sports, shelters, and medical situations) But bathrooms? I couldn't care less. A women's book group or something? I mean if they participate in good faith and don't try to dominate conversations then I'm fine with it.

Even more so when we consider many of these dysphoric MTF are attracted to men! I'm thinking of people like Blaire White or Rose of Dawn here: in my mind I would think of them as a woman, yeah if it really got down to it then no they are not truly women, but they've already expressed that they don't intend to try to take women's resources or do anything else to hurt women. I can't understand fully what's going on in their brains, but if it makes them happy and they are respectful/don't overstep boundaries, then I don't have a problem with them and even support them making the choices that make them most happy.

I have a good friend like this too and I guess I kinda feel like -- she uprooted her whole life and went to such great lengths to be seen as a woman, and she's not participating in women's sports or waving her (now non existent) "girldick" around lesbians or anything -- those actions would mortify her because her worst nightmare is making people uncomfortable -- yeah she's not REALLY a woman but I am willing to play along because I can tell it's important to her and it is doing no harm to me. This is the kind of person that well meaning libfems think of when they're talking about supporting trans women. I just think that they are a very rare kind of person, and most of the people claiming to be "trans women" these days do NOT match the description.

Speaking of which, I especially don't really feel threatened by post bottom surgery trans women because their ability for sexual assault has greatly diminished (yes I know it's still possible, but at least they can't impregnate anyone). I do not trust any trans "woman" with a penis, I understand some might be reluctant to do surgery for legitimate reasons (no $$$, fear of botched surgery), but I do think you need dysphoria to be a trans person and part of that would include not liking having male parts. The minute the "girldick" term comes up I instantly brand them as fetishist/predator because by definition they like being a male and having a male reproductive system, and I will NEVER accept them as a woman in any way shape or form.

I also think somebody can be a transsexual FTM without being a self hating lesbian or whatever. Again I see the great lengths someone like say, Kalvin Garrah or Buck Angel, goes to to be viewed as a man by society and I have a certain level of respect for that. They know they are biologically female, they just feel more comfortable being perceived as a man. Again it comes down to rights and safety issues, and FTM are not threatening other biological women, so who cares?

I know the radfem opinion is that these people are aping sexist stereotypes and thus promoting said stereotypes, but I think that a lot of biological men and women do the same thing and there are a lot more of non trans people promoting these stereotypes. I do think in an ideal world we'd have no gender stereotypes and we could say "Blaire White is a man who likes looking a certain way and there's nothing wrong with that", but like... let's be real. The overwhelming majority of society is not there yet and probably won't be within my lifetime. This is also why the "theys" and people who pick gender pronouns incongruous with their appearance (say, the men with beards that call themselves "she"), and pronoun announcing in general annoys me. I think that unless you're in a medical or sport situation or otherwise around the person undressed, the truth is that for the rest of the time their chromosomes (nor self perceived "gender ID") do not matter as much as what society is going to clock them as. I tend to lean utilitarian in my philosophy so I think that for truly dysphoric individuals, transition is the best option in the sense that we have to be realistic and recognize that gender stereotypes were not invented by trans people, but they influence how the whole of society operates and it will take much longer before we can get to the point where your average bloke on the street would view Blaire White's presentation as acceptable for a man.

I also differ from radfems a bit in the sense that I think completely eliminating gender is not possible. I think we can greatly reduce the effect biological sex has on the gender roles people are expected to fill (contrast the options of lifestyle for a biological female in, say, Yemen, vs. Sweden...), but I think that as a dimorphic species in which males are much stronger than females and females bear the offspring, human society is always going to assign certain attributes and roles to the different sexes beyond their role in reproduction. And us women as the more disadvantaged of the two, are always going to be victim to society (both men and other women) trying to coerce us to act a certain way that is ultimately more conducive for the role of mother, because we humans have evolved over millennia specifically through selecting for the women that were willing and/or able to become mothers. This also means that in any society there's always going to be some tension around people who do not fit this role, either due to their sexual preference or due to the gender role they want to adopt not being ideal for reproduction (so LGBT basically). It's a depressing thought for sure, so I try not to dwell on it too hard, but it is what it is.

[–]yishengqingwa666 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, we know they exist: they never stop whining, lying, threatening women with job loss, doxing, rape and murder. They are crybullies.

[–]StupidHappyPancakes 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the problem is that if we were to say, sure, let's be inclusive to the small amount of non-fetishistic TIMs with legitimate dysphoria who have gotten bottom surgery, that leaves the door open to the fetishistic TIMs who still have their dicks. You'll already see trans people making the argument that there's no way that such a policy can be enforced because it's not like people's genitals get checked at the entrance to a woman's bathroom.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I dont think that neo-females belong in female-only spaces like reproductive health/similar things, but I do think they belong in spaces that are for WOMEN, like the public bathroom.

But girls and women deal with matters of female "reproductive health" - such as pregnancy nausea and vomiting, menstruation, menopausal flooding, bloodstained clothing from period leaks, stains on our blouses from leaking breasts when we're lactating, chronic UTIs caused by female reproductive anatomy and behaviors, etc - in public/communal loos all the time. That's one of the reasons we have female only toilet facilities in the first place!

Many women have miscarriages in public or workplace communal toilets. Some women go into labor in them - and some girls and women have even given birth there. Decades ago, I came upon a frightened teenager who was giving birth in a bus station bathroom. Once my own waters broke when in a public loo in a movie theater.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/miscarriages-pub-toilet-gender-neutral/

In many workplaces, there are no facilities set aside for breastfeeding women to pump - so the only place women can do this is in the loo. For reasons or hygiene, it's much more sensible to try to sanitize an area around the sinks and pump there rather than to do so in a toilet stall, which are much germier, harder to clean and usually doesn't have any counter space to work on besides.

Many women with a couple of small kids in tow have to use public toilets with the stall door open because stalls are too small to fit a grown woman, an antsy toddler and a pram or stroller in which a baby is sleeping. Because it would be irresponsible to leave her baby and toddler outside unattended, a woman in such a situation has no choice but to do her business whilst leaving the door open. Similarly, if the toddler needs to use the toilet, the door will have to stay open too so that mom can help the kid on the can whilst keeping an eye on the baby carriage.

I won't even bother going into some of the difficulties, vulnerabilities and mortifications that female people who are disabled and/or elderly regularly contend with in public loos dealing with "reproductive health/similar things" due to having female physiology.

[–]our_team_is_winning 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I didn't know who Buck Angel was and just read up on "him" -- my head now hurts. A lot. I guess a butch lesbian who was bullied to the point of have her breasts removed, taking male hormones, losing her hair, and going into porn, billed as "the Man with a P*ssy." I guess I just don't get it. Buck seems happy (?) What I see is lesbian self-erasure, but I'm only an outsider looking in.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

And now with every passing day, Buck Angel is publicly asserting that Buck's sex is female, and that as a female Buck is a huge proponent of women's rights, female only sports, and female only spaces from public loos to prisons. Same goes for Scott Newgent. After all these two lesbians have done to try to escape being seen as female, they are now broadcasting their sex and re-identifying with the rad feminist politics of the the 70s and 80s. Partly because they both are very alarmed by the way transing has become a fad amongst the yoof of today, and how many troubled young women are falling prey to it, at great cost to their mental and physical health. Both Buck and Scott want to put the brakes on the trans train in order to save kids - and also because they too are being cancelled as transphobes by the woke.

[–]our_team_is_winning 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I just found this and I laughed because I can guarantee Scott has been called "transphobic" -- the Woke eat their own! Always looking for heretics, even among other trans.

<'Scott says, “I can’t be called transphobic, I am transgender, but medically transitioning children is criminal. There is nothing to debate. It’s wrong on every level.”'>

[–]our_team_is_winning 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Now I'll need to look up Scott Newgent. Yeah, thanks for that info! I clicked a few things and saw that Buck Angel is still being bullied, this time by Trans Demands Activists (whichever member on here who used that the other day, I said "I'm gonna use that!" Perfect, thanks!) -- I read a little of what Buck had to say and it was "I'm transsexual" not genderspecial, and there were scores of lamebrain teens saying they didn't need to respect their elders and older people were stupid (yeah because life experience and full brain development mean nothing -- what's that saying? "Hey teenagers, leave home now while you still know everything!") I thought Buck was calling herself a man, but it's so confusing.... Still yeah, definitely against this ignorant youth mob and transing children! Anyone who isn't a child abuser should be against transing children. And anyone who isn't a shameless liar should admit a man in lipstick is still a man, not a woman. When is Upside Down World going to be flipped back over to normal?

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I also call them GITs: gender ideology tyrants.

[–]our_team_is_winning 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GITs: gender ideology tyrants.

That is brilliant! This needs to become a mainstream term.

[–]LasagnaRossa 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I partially agree with you.

The root of all misunderstanding is that we use the same two words for sexes and gender roles&presentation. Are trans people the other sex? No. Are they the other social sex? Yes.

When TRAs say that we would treat a trans person as their target gender, they aren't lying: some of them pass very well and we would talk to them like the man or woman they look.

I'm okay with putting trans people in their target sex group whenever we're talking about the social aspects of gender. About everything else (biology, attraction and census) no.

[–]jelliknight 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What are the social aspects of gender? Please list some.

The problem with this line of thinking is that while you keep it amorphous is seems like it makes sense. That's because we're all raised in a sexist society so we all know deep down what is expected of women, even if we make a conscious effort to reject it. When you get explicit about exactly which social behaviors are of each gender, you end up simply listing sexist stereotypes.

So please, list some social aspects of gender that aren't just the same sexism in a new hat.

[–]LasagnaRossa 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I won't hide that social expectations stem from sexism, but that's how the world works for now, and passing trans people face the same social experience of their target gender.

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, no.

And the VAST majority of trans people do not pass.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is about money (a child who "transitions" is a huge, lifetime moneymaker for the Medical Pharmaceutical Industrial Complex) and some other nefarious goal(s) that the Powers That Be are softening us up for.

The goal could be eugenics - many kids sucked into the trans trend are gay, autistic, or suffer from mental health issues. It could be to facilitate a decline in birth rate because most transgenders will end up infertile.

A woman who has been following the Trans, Inc. money trail for years, Jennifer Bilek, (twitter @bjportraits) thinks the end goal is transhumanism, and she makes a very good case. Check out her twitter, blog and articles (linked on them) because she has followed the transgender lobby money and it leads to very frightening places.

[–]TurtleFuzz 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

In my opinion, I think that the idea of being "transgender" should work. At least on paper. If a man has more "feminine" hobbies or personality traits, then they should be allowed to do so without being harassment.

The problems that I have are:

  1. The stubborn refusal to understand that women do not want men, feminine or otherwise, in personal women's spaces. That includes bathrooms and locker/changing rooms. Women are in these spaces to do private, personal things. Men should not be there because they could pose a threat to women. Obviously not all men are dangerous or disgusting perverts, but the fact that violence against women in these private spaces persists, means we need these protections in place.

  2. The trans ideology is dangerous to children. It's being pushed as a medical condition that requires lifelong medication of dangerous drugs, and dangerous elective surgeries. What other medical condition can you self-diagnose and get access to these life altering things? The fact that young children are allowed to get on puberty-blockers and desteoy their bodies before they have become legal adults is baffling to me.

  3. The enforcement of outdated gender roles and stereotypes as part of "diagnosis". Suddenly it's not OK to the a girl who likes playing with toy cars. Now you're a boy. Suddenly it's not OK for boys to like the color pink. Now you're a girl. This suppression of normal childhood play, self-expression and learning has become a tool for the trans machine.

If all trans adults could transition and not be creepy about it, then I wouldn't have a problem. But a few bad apples ruin the bunch, as they say.

[–]jelliknight 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If a man has more "feminine" hobbies or personality traits, then they should be allowed to do so without being harassment.

The problem is when there's a link created between these hobbies or traits and the sex of the body, or the sex of the soul (gender identity). Any time those are linked and that link is supported by an authority it reinforces exactly the same shit that feminists have been fighting against since forever.

"I like dresses, therefore I'm a woman" is exactly the same logic as "You're a woman, you must wear dresses." and "If you don't wear dresses you're not a real woman." In supporting 'transgender' ideas we're reinforcing our own cage.

Be David Bowie. Wear make up, wear tights, do what you like and who you like, but dont pretend it has anything to do with sex.

[–]MezozoicGay 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

And dozen centuries ago it was masculine to wear dresses. Gender stereotypes are changing all the time. So what today is "feminine" decade ago maybe was "masculine". So maybe person who "is trans" now, in reality just time traveller and trans-temporal and born "masculine" by older standarts?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's still common in much of the world for men to wear dresses/gowns and sarongs and other skirts as their everyday attire. Just visit - or look up pictures - of men in Vatican City, the Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Indonesia, Myanmar, Pakistan, and many other places - millions of men there are wearing dresses/gowns/robes this very minute.

[–]MezozoicGay 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So they all are trans! Must convert! /s

In those countries women are very oppressed, and for some reason there no transgenders appearing to fit the women's role. I wonder why?

[–]jelliknight 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Oooh good one. Everyone who thinks they're "transgender" is actual just "transtemporal". TIFs are from a future where women are equal and TIMs are from the past when the definition of masculinity was much broader due the femininity being so narrow. They need to update the date on their birth certificate not the sex.

[–]TurtleFuzz 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly, I tried to make that point in my 3rd bullet but maybe I wasn't clear enough. I think that everyone is free to express their personality in however they feel best. As long as the reasoning isn't "because I'm the opposite gender" everyone should be free to dress how they like.

[–]Sittingonarainbow 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"If a man has more "feminine" hobbies or personality traits, then they should be allowed to do so without being harassment." I agree, but I don't agree that having hobbies commonly associated with women makes a man a woman. Let that man enjoy his hobbies, but don't pretend to be a woman; just live life as the dude you are as you enjoy your hobbies.

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LOL "valid". Yeah, no.

https://outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/

[–]cybitch 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Who says the public bathroom is for women and not people with female bodies? Do you think bathrooms were separated because ladybrains, not because our bodies make us vulnerable to assault when exposed to males? And yes I do mean males, not men, because it turns out male genitals can still be used for rape even if someone wears a skirt over them instead of pants.

Transsexualism is as "valid" as any fetish is, quite frankly I don't care so long as they keep their male organs covered outside of their bedrooms. They can be all the woman they want in private, what is the need for everyone to see that yes, they like wearing dresses. Outside of a sexual context it shouldn't matter at all what kind of clothes you wear or what genitals you have under them. Any combo is fine, really. Noone actually cares until you start imposing yourself on people in demand of some sort of "validation".

[–]Astrid2448 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with you, and I think most people do, but you're not going to find much agreement with radfems (I'm not a radfem). However, there is a problem with this line of thinking.

Someone like Blaire White or Nikita Dragun is going to essentially be seen as a woman to society. There are absolutely trans women who you'd never suspect until they told you. But how do you define that, especially in law? How do you know whether the trans person in the bathroom with you has a penis or not? Are you going to check? What if they have a vagina but are still 6'5 and 200 pounds?

Plus, there are plenty of women who aren't very feminine. What if a trans woman wants to wear boxers and short hair, likening themselves to a butch lesbian? There are lots of women who dress just like the average guy does. If a guy is wearing the same clothes, and declares himself a trans woman, the only ways to deny it are either saying women must wear feminine clothing or that trans women aren't women. That's the only way to be consistent about it.

Trans ideology is full of things like this, where you either have to be sexist or overly permissive. That's why we end up with so many generic phrases like "trans women are women" but a refusal to actually define anything or provide any coherent arguments. The left in general has decided to go for the overly permissive approach, because they're trying to be consistent and nice without having to own up to any of the sexism that is unfortunately inherent in trans ideology.

[–]gencritcurious[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

thanks for the replies guys! i havent opened this account in months, but it was interesting seeing the responses (im a minor and im still learning). I cant say i agree with everything in the comments, but it was helpful feedback :)