all 55 comments

[–]slushpilot 47 insightful - 1 fun47 insightful - 0 fun48 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

This is the question you ask when someone claims the sudden surge in trans people is because they suddenly feel safe and welcome to come out.

It's not evenly distributed by a long shot. It's specific demographic groups, which proves it's a social contagion.

[–]MarkTwainiac 32 insightful - 1 fun32 insightful - 0 fun33 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Since as you say, the trans phenom is not evenly distributed but occurs only within specific demographic groups, I think it's important not to lump them all together under the heading of "social contagion."

For the girls and teen girls and young women who are coming out in droves as trans and non-binary and gender queer, yes it seems to be driven by social contagion - and an entirely new social contagion at that. Hence, in teen girls' friend groups, a whole bunch of girls will "come out" as trans (or whatever) at the same time. They are encouraging each other to be trans, and teaching and coaching each other on exactly how to go about it, just the way girls used to teach each other how to be anorectic and bulimic.

For the kids being transed by their parents and other adults, the parents seem to be involved in a social contagion, but the parents' underlying motives are narcissism and attention-seeking, sexism, rigid beliefs in and adherence to strict sex role stereotypes, a desire to control their kids, and homophobia.

For the homosexual men who want to bed straight men, the fad of going trans seems to be partly due to social contagion, but mostly it's driven by their own internalized homophobia, extreme narcissism, their total immersion in their own fantasy lives, and a weird combo of their own overwhelming sexual needs and compulsions that drive them exclusively to desire straight men alongside their total inability to grasp and accept the basic truth of straight male sexuality - which is that straight men want females, not males pretending to be the opposite sex. But most of gay guys who become trans develop their sexual tastes and compulsions on their own and in secrecy at a very young age; they're not picking this stuff up from other boys the way all the girls/young women with ROGD are. Though nowadays these boys are of course being heavily influenced by new trends in online porn and the fact that being trans has become a powerful new sociopolitical movement that provides trans-identified people with all sorts power, privileges and benefits.

As for the huge number of heterosexual boys, young men and full grown men going trans, they are driven by male sexual compulsion and narcissism of autogynephilia. AGP is of course now been spurred heavily by online porn, LARPing, the internet etc, and that's why it's becoming more widespread and visible. But the condition existed in a significant % of men long before the current era and the new technologies of modern telecommunications and social media.

The AGP impulse originates within the psyches of individual boys themselves during early puberty, and it's in early puberty that their lifelong AGP tendencies and habits get cemented. However, when AGP youths start imagining themselves as females and using items of "female" clothing & intimate care as masturbation aids - and they find it gives them massive boners and the super-orgasms they call "gender euphoria" - they almost always do so entirely on their own and in total secrecy. And as adolescents, these boys' AGP usually causes them to feel a great deal of isolation and shame - and bad as the shame makes them feel, their shame also enhances the erotic pleasure they get from their AGP. Only after these guys have been stealing women's undies and intimate products to jerk off in and to and this has become their fixed pattern do they find other males with the same proclivities to egg each other on and bolster each other's entitlement and power.

[–]yousaythosethings 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Add to the heterosexual young boys the category of transtrenders. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between them and AGPs, but someone I know personally I do not believe is AGP, but rather a transtrender who is autistic and anime-obsessed and has been drawn in by the sense of community, feeling of belonging, and his rejection of male sex stereotypes that he could never live up to.

[–]marmorsymphata 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Jesus, that's so depressing, to feel made to relinquish who you are because you can't be enough of a monster as the rest of them...

[–]soundsituation 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Impressive analysis. I'm curious about one thing though: I noticed that TIFs were the only group for whom you did not list narcissism as a contributing factor. Was that an accidental omission or do you believe that narcissism doesn't generally play a role in the motivations of that demographic?

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I definitely think there are many TIFs for whom narcissism is a contributing or central factor, especially those who persist with their insistence they are men into adulthood. For example, Chase Strangio of the ACLU strikes me as a malignant narcissist.

But amongst the specific groups of TIFs I was discussing - teen girls and young women suffering from ROGD spread by social contagion - I think narcissism is a much smaller or often entirely absent factor. The intense self-focus that many girls and young women with ROGD display seems a natural part/stage of adolescence that many/most of them outgrow; it's not clinical narcissism.

For girls and young women with ROGD, the core issue isn't an excess of (apparent) self-love, self-importance, entitlement and rage towards the larger world, it's an absence of them.

[–]Madsea 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I think there’s a lot more BPD among the girls.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But isn't the idea of, and diagnosis of, "BPD" under question because it's a label/dx that tends to get placed on girls & women who've experienced severe trauma, including & particularly childhood sexual abuse?

I'm old, & have been following these issues for my lifetime, and I recall very distinctly how skeptical many feminists & thoughtful psychotherapists of both sexes were back in 1980 when "BPD" was first entered into the DSM. That happened immediately after feminists had started to bring attention to how widespread childhood sexual abuse actually is, and many scholars began to refute Freud's theories about children "just fantasizing" about sex abuse and exposed why/how/when Freud concocted these theories.

I think a lot of the girls falling prey to "gender dysphoria" and transmania today are deeply troubled for a variety of reasons, including various kinds of trauma, sexual abuse and sexual objectification.

[–]Skipdip 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Can you please define ROGD? Thank you. Overall really appreciate your analysis.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Rapid onset gender dysphoria is the term coined by Lisa Littman MD to describe gender dysphoria that came on suddenly during adolescence amongst young people, mostly girls, who never before expressed distress over their sex.

ROGD is a new form of "gender dysphoria." It's very different from the traditional kinds long recognized by psychologists and sexologists, which are: childhood gender dysphoria, which affects kids prior to puberty, many/most of them gay growing up in homophobic families, communities and cultures; autogynephilic gender dysphoria, which occurs in heterosexual adolescent and adult males who are sexually aroused by the idea of themselves as women, and tend to become obsessed with the the idea, which many sexologists consider to be the most severe kind of GD; homosexual gender dysphoria, previously homosexual transvestism (disorder), which affects homosexual adults who find they can't live comfortably as gay men or lesbians for a variety of reasons, including rigid sex stereotypes, the homophobia of others/society at large, and their own often very great internalized homophobia...

[–]Skipdip 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is so useful. You are the real MVP out here with all the facts! Thank you fellow lesbian warrior!

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So glad to be of use. I have TONs of resources on these topics. And my main reason for being here is to share them.

BTW, I am so complimented that you called me a sister or "fellow lesbian warrior." But sorry to disappoint, I'm (mostly/mainly) heterosexual. For much of my life I've been the "token het" amongst various social & political circles comprised mostly or entirely of lesbians, and also of gay men... I often have wished & tried to change my sexual orientation, & of course I've had plenty of crushes on women & a few dalliances, but at my core my straightness seems pretty innate. Again, thanks for the compliment & sorry to disappoint! LOL

[–]Skipdip 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ah ok, makes sense! Well thank you for being such an ally to us. I’m not totally sure where I got that impression, maybe I confused the gc sub with the lesbian one. I also appreciate when people know that sexual orientation isn’t a choice, and it is categorical. The fluid sexual spectrum thing has been harmful esp to lesbians of my generation.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, the whole "fluid sexual spectrum thing" has indeed been harmful to lesbians of recent generations. Just as were previous iterations of the same lesbophobia ("it's just a phase, she'll grow out of it;" "all she needs is a good shag;" "she just hasn't met the right man yet") for previous generations.

Also, my respect for lesbians and awareness of the myriad extra difficulties lesbians face is one of the reasons I as a (mostly) heterosexual woman believe women such as myself (who are mainly het with a sprinkling of bi) should never pursue the crushes we get on lesbians.

As an older ally, I just want to say how sorry I am for the cultural climate of today that is so inhospitable to, and abusive of, lesbians. Best wishes to you - and sorry for my being short with you on those other threads you started!

[–]Skipdip 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you! Very helpful information

[–]slushpilot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Excellent comment. I was specifically addressing the point of young girls, but you're right that there's a trove of reasons that need to be unpacked and understood. This means we need to be able to question and discuss these issues openly without dismissing it as "transphobia".

[–]Cacator[S] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There was that 4000% surge in young girls ...was it Sweden or the UK, can't remember. That sure as hell was caused by social contagion.

[–]BEB 28 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The 4000% surge in young girls IDing as trans was in the UK,

However, in the US, the US Center for Disease Control released a study last year that found that almost 2% of US high school students now consider themselves trans.

So in a high school of 2000, that's 40 trans students, but NO, it's not because of social contagion /s

[–]Cacator[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Give me the sauce. It's scary.

[–]worried19 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What's crazy to me is that there's zero evidence of some of those groups in history. Take gay trans men. Okay, someone pointed out there was maybe one guy back in the 70s and 80s named Lou Sullivan. But that was pretty much it. Now there are hundreds if not thousands of "gay trans boys" who are being spurred on by social media and other youth media specifically making that demographic visible.

Trans activists want us to believe that thousands of straight girls were actually trans boys yearning to come out in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. And that the reason there's a 4000% jump in natal female teenagers transitioning is because they feel safe. This just doesn't intersect with reality. In fact, it flies in the face of the entire known history of transsexualism.

[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There were a lot of US girls railing against the restrictions of being a woman in the 1960s and 1970s, yes. But they were called "tomboys" and more or less accepted.

And I went to university with a lot of lesbians and none, not one, wanted to actually be a man. It was a glorious time when women exulted at being women, even with all the battles we had to fight.

I don't know how we got to where we are now, but we need to get back to that time. I AM WOMAN, HEAR ME ROAR.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There were a lot of US girls railing against the restrictions of being a woman in the 1960s and 1970s, yes. But they were called "tomboys" and more or less accepted.

Yes, there were. But not all of us were "tomboys" or labelled as such. We were just girls with fully-developed (or developing) complex human personalities and a vast range of interests, including an interest in achieving fairness and equality for our own sex.

Just as the 60s and 70s were full of outspoken, strong-willed full-grown feminist women who looked and "presented" pretty much like all other women & who ranged from being "sexy" to "matronly" but who'd never be described or derided as being in any way "mannish" - such as Germaine Greer, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Grace Paley and a zillion others - there were tons of girls and budding young women in the 60s & 70s who were outspoken, independent, feminist & plenty angry - but without being in any way "boyish" in our own eyes or the eyes of others.

(An online image search of women's liberation marches & demonstrations - as well as anti-nuclear and anti-war demos - from the 1950s, 60s, 70s & 80s is instructive: it will show the enormous diversity of the women involved.)

What's more, being a girl/young woman who was "railing against the restrictions of being a woman" in the 60s & 70s wasn't just accepted, in many contexts it was seen as a plus.

When I applied to colleges/uni in 1972, the elite institutions I sought to go to actually saw my being a "women's libber" as a strength and an asset. Similarly, in the work world during 1970s and 80s, my feminist views & strong personality & assertive interpersonal style helped get & keep me jobs & positions. And whilst many of the jobs & positions I had back then were mainly occupied by/open to members of the more privileged classes, a number were working-class, such as bartending, waitressing and construction work.

I too went to uni with a lot of lesbians, and like you knew none who wanted to be a man. Moreover, just as straight women like myself back then felt free to dress/"present" in all sorts of ways, my lesbian friends then - as now - were/are incredibly diverse in how they came across. Some were/are butch, but many were/are not - at all. Most are like all women somewhere in the middle and don't really spend much time thinking about how we look and what others think of us.

Yes, we need to get back to that time.

[–]BEB 23 insightful - 7 fun23 insightful - 6 fun24 insightful - 7 fun -  (13 children)

All on this sub! We are not women with our TERF bangs, grey hair and sensible shoes - we are self-hating transmen. JK!

To be fair: women in the West have been wearing trousers and "asexual" clothing for decades now, so we don't need to get our jollies out of wearing men's underwear under our sundresses.

[–]lefterfield 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Yeah, but why do men need to wear women's clothes? It's not like women wore dresses for the sexual thrill of it. They did it partly for fashion, mostly for it being the only socially acceptable clothing for women to wear in public. Once women could wear jeans and t-shirts instead, most of them have.

[–]MarkTwainiac 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Men wear women's clothes because it's sexually arousing to them. Women don't get sexually aroused by wearing traditionally masculine/male-type clothing because female sexuality is fundamentally different to male sexuality in myriad ways. Cross-dressing for erotic pleasure and autogynephilia, just like voyeurism, flashing, menstrual fetishes, are paraphilias (or what used to be called perversions); and with very rare exceptions, paraphilias are deviant sexual proclivities of males.

[–]oofreesouloo 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It exists the female version - autoandrophilia. But I have a strong feeling it's much rarer to occur in females than males. At least it's the impression I've got. Or at least they aren't so "invasive" and inappropriate and are discreet, I don't know.

[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Right, I know all that. Is the source of it testosterone, "male brain", socialization, or something else?

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think it's due to the way evolution has arranged male sexuality. Male gametes across species are inherently penetrative and piercing; and mammalian and human male genital anatomy have evolved to facilitate and emphasize the delivery of male gametes into the female repro tract via the penis as much as the production of male gametes in the testicles.

Human male sexual impulses are also incredibly overwhelming to most boys' and men's bodies and psyches. Pubescent boys have involuntary erections and ejaculations all the time, even in their sleep and in situations when they really don't want to have them (such as around their moms and grans). Adolescent and young adult males are consumed by thoughts/reveries about sex all the time, often against their conscious will - and everything and anything can be arousing to them. I think of this as the male curse.

[–]florasis 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's testosterone. Before ovulation testosterone increases in women and I can feel the clitoris bothering me with sexual desire and me being more horny than normal. Now men have tons more testosterone than women all the time, of course they're sluts lol

[–]just_lesbian_things 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I think of this as the male curse.

Would castration be a viable solution for their liberation? 🤔🤔🤔

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Chemical castration hasn't worked out so well when tried on male sex offenders, or on promiscuous gay men.

Surgical castration of human males has been done through history for various reasons: to turn them into dutiful court eunuchs in ancient imperial China; to benefit the art of Italian/European opera in the case of the castrati; to make enslaved males "safe" & "docile" in the case of the millions of black African men who were castrated when taken into captivity over the long history of Arab & Ottoman Empire slavery...

I suspect castration of males "for their liberation" be akin to lobotomizing strong-willed mentally ill and intellectually disabled people to "cure" them of their difficult, challenging personalities, as in the cases of Frances Farmer and Rose Kennedy. A human rights violation.

I'd hope education and "sensitivity training" of male people to help them develop empathy and control of their baser impulses would be a better way.

[–]BEB 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think people should wear whatever they want to wear that isn't indecent. Yes, I am a prude.

If the sexual frisson was taken out of men wearing women's clothes, then maybe the AGPs would disappear (dressing as a woman won't be thrilling if any man can do it in public without anyone batting an eye) and women can have our sex-segregated spaces back.

[–]lefterfield 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Maybe. My question is more why it exists at all, when it doesn't exist for women wearing their own clothes. This seems to be a fundamental difference between men and women's sexuality.

[–]oofreesouloo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I already stated here in another comment, but in case you haven't seen it, it exists the female version - autoandrophilia. But it seems it doesn't occur near as much as AGP in males.

[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Almost unheard of and as I recall the researcher who studied AGP wasn't certain if it was a real phenomenon.

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There was a post in / s/Lesbians recently that had strong undertones of autoandrophilia. It was fascinating.

[–]Veneficca 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

About 4-8 years ago, a ton of women in my circle transitioned. It was like dominoes falling, one after the other did it. They ranged from 30-mid 50s, I'd say. All lesbian. I don't know any straight women who've even considered it, except for a few fanfic writers obsessed with gay men - and their realism prevailed.

[–]BEB 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

So did they consider themselves heterosexual men after they transitioned?

Did any of them have affairs with other transitioned women and consider themselves a gay male couple?

My brain hurts...

[–]Veneficca 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Almost all of them had girlfriends when they transitioned. Suddenly they were "Kyle" or "Jacob" or whoever, and growing facial hair, but they'd still come to every lesbian event and try to claim both identities. It was very weird.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's very sad. It is very difficult to be a woman, as we all know, but one would think that by your 40s you would have least settled in and accepted it. I hope that they have found self-acceptance.

[–]Dravidian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Where are they now? Still thinking they're men?

[–]Veneficca 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I only know a few of them now. Inevitably, that circle splintered as they kept coming to LGB events while insisting they were men, not lesbians, and their lesbian partners were told to call themselves bi or straight - it was a hot fucking mess.

But I know one has detransitioned, one seems to be doing so without calling it that, and one is still with her original GF and "living as a man."

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Internalized homophobia? Maybe thinking life would just be easier that way?

[–]fuckingsealions 12 insightful - 5 fun12 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

Abigail Shrier was looking for them too. I'm just calling myself trans now since it seems to be a get out of and get into jail free card.

[–]Cacator[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Smuggle some nail polish into Dartmoor, and you are good to go. I hate this.

[–]LesbiSilly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

lol. Sounds like a plan. I thought of this today as well. It seems a pretty easy card to use.

[–]fuckingsealions 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

There's literally no parameters!! No definitions!! I'm serious about this idea. :)

[–]LesbiSilly 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do it. Just do it and #peaktrans a lot of other people.

[–]fuckingsealions 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I sacrifice myself for the good of our cause. The good news is I don't have to take drugs or change anything. It's just my manlibrain telling me I deserve more.

[–]jet199 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Interestingly enough though loads of women come out as lesbians in their 40s and 50s. Personally I think it's due to hormone changes but I'm sure most people here will think it's socialisation or something. So bi curious women possibly have that to look forward to as well as the menopause.

[–]our_team_is_winning 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was thinking that too, many women have relationships with men for decades and then later turn to a woman. But that's nothing like announcing you ARE a man, because that isn't even possible. If middle aged men were suddenly announcing they were gay and wanted to be with another man, we'd wonder what was causing it, and it would hurt their current families if they're leaving a wife and children, but it would not be INSANE. It's frustrating that men always think women are crazy (always the gaslighting) and they blame our hormones and our "emotional nature" or whatever, but it turns out men are capable of even greater insanity with this AGP thing.

[–]yousaythosethings 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m a late-blooming lesbian but there is a wide swath of people under this umbrella. People like me didn’t just “discover” that we were attracted to women in our 30s and beyond. Also within the group of women claiming to be LBLs are heterosexual women going through a mid-life crisis who are being sold cultural lesbianism as some sort of lifestyle move. See r/latebloomerlesbians.

[–]Shesstealthy 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I know a couple of erstwhile straight or bi married women in their 40s who have "come out" as gender queer or nonbinary, but it only seems to go as far as a profile descriptor and maybe a pronoun. I'm unaware of them so much as altering their wardrobes, let alone demanding that their husbands publicly identify as Gay Now or anything else new.

Must be that female socialisation at work.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's trendy. It's another way to say "look at me"

I know that there are people who are genuinely lactose and gluten intolerant and feel deeply for them, but for awhile there you couldn't have a simple dinner party because everyone was intolerant of something.

It was exhausting, because you'd also have to hear their whole health history in their explanation as to WHY you couldn't serve whatever dish to them. I sense the same type of "Pay Attention to ME" personality in some of these new "gender queers" and non-binaries.

[–]macaron 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

tranwomen and transmen are very different things