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[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Earlier, a poster responded to this thread by saying:

Why is there a sudden influx of misandric dreck lately? Last week it was some insane ramblings about 'female domination' dressed up as 'real feminism'.

It's bollocks like this that makes people think feminists are crazy man-hating lesbians who don't shave.

Whilst I was composing my reply, the poster deleted his or her comment. But I'm posting my reply anyways, as I spent a good deal of time on it. So here it is:

This is not a new idea. I wrote an article very similar in 1990, albeit not from a religious or conservative perspective.

Pray tell, why is your immediate reaction to write this off as "misandric [sic] dreck" and "bollocks"?

Look at all the health risks and damage to our bodies and mental well-being that girls and women are expected to put up with as a matter of course to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and to deal with unwanted pregnancies when they occur.

Hormonal BC pills have horrible effects on many girls & women, as do longer-term hormonal implants and the MAP, along with devices like IUDs, which are painful to get inserted and often lead to a host of deleterious effects such as perforated uteruses and chronic inflammation. And let's not forget those awful Essure devices that were put into the Fallopian tubes for the purpose of causing so much irritation and inflammation that enough scar tissue would form to cause the tubes to shut.

Even if a girl or woman has no moral qualms about abortion, it's not a pleasant procedure. On the contrary, it can be very painful. It's also expensive, and in many places a legal abortion is difficult or impossible to obtain, particularly within the permissible time frame. What's more, even legal abortion can be risky. In the USA, for example:

Although deemed safe, therapeutic abortions, as well as spontaneous miscarriages, can lead to a variety of complications. Most complications are considered minor such as pain, bleeding, infection, and post-anesthesia complications, while others are major, namely uterine atony and subsequent hemorrhage, uterine perforation, injuries to adjacent organs (bladder or bowels), cervical laceration, failed abortion, septic abortion, and disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC).

The total abortion-related complication rate including all sources of care including emergency departments and the original abortion facility is estimated to be about 2%.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430793/

With the number of abortions done in the USA estimated at 1 million+ annually, that's more than 20,000 girls & women who end up with complications. I personally know three women who almost died of post-abortion infections, including two for whom it led to sepsis.

Back when I wrote about this in 1990, most vasectomies still required small surgical incisions, and did or could involve some pain and could lead to complications. However, the complication rates were no higher than those for abortion, and the negative long-term health effects for males post-vasectomy were considerably lower than for females with IUDs and on hormonal birth control. What's more, as of 1990, only two men in the US had ever been reported to have died of a vasectomy. Which was far, far fewer than the number of girls and women who to that point in history had died due to complications of pregnancy and childbirth and abortion.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12317890/

But all that is besides the point today because since the 1980s huge advances have been made in vasectomy methods, and nowadays "no scalpel" vasectomies are widely available. The methods used today are very quick (10 minutes), require little down time (normal activity can be resumed in 48 hours), and they entail very little pain - meaning not only is no knife involved, but no needle is required to provide numbing medication either. Today's methods of no-knife vasectomy also have very low rates of complication.

https://www.healthline.com/health/mens-health/no-scalpel-vasectomy#recovery

What's more "gentle touch" vasectomy in the USA also can be obtained relatively inexpensively especially when compared to the costs of years of female BC and procedures. (A gentle touch vasectomy today costs $850 USD, including follow-up care & semen check at 3 months, compared to $1200 -$2500 for knife vasectomy plus aftercare.) Also, in the US vasectomy is covered by many insurance carriers.

https://www.bestvasectomy.com/gentle-touch-vasectomy/

A final point of utmost importance is that vasectomy does not interfere with males' libido or their ability to get erections or to ejaculate. Nor does it diminish the force or pleasure of their orgasms.

So why is the proposal that all males routinely get this 10 minute, painless, low risk procedure evidence of being "crazy" and "man-hating"? And WTF does this have to do with "lesbians who don't shave"? The woman who wrote the article in the OP is an apparently hetero married mother of six who's a Mormon - dunno if she shaves or not, and I find that immaterial, but she's clearly not a lesbian or a feminist.

Far from being "misandric [sic] dreck" this proposal actually is very pro-male. Even pro patriarchy in a sense. Coz for the first time ever, it would give all males absolute control over their own fertility; they would truly be "masters of their domain" when it comes to fathering a child. Which means no more worrying about accidentally knocking a girl/woman up, no more getting "tricked" or coerced into marriages or LTRs with female lovers against their will, no more paternity suits, and no more having to pay 18 or more years of child support for kids they never wanted in the first place. All of which are things that men have been complaining about for decades.

What's more, the proposal would eliminate all the situations where a girl or woman has an abortion when the father of the fetus would much prefer she didn't - which some males find unfair and have been griping about since abortion became legal.

The benefits to society would be huge too because this proposal would mean that the only children who come into the world are those who were wanted. It would save a huge amount of $$ now being spent on female health care related to contraception, abortion and complications of pregnancy and childbirth when conception was accidental and unwanted by the girl/woman.

I won't go into all the ways this proposal could benefit girls & women, coz they should be obvious.

Rather than just dismiss this idea as "misndric [sic] dreck" and "bollocks," please list and explain why you find it so. And when you do so, please consider that when you make statements such as:

It's bollocks like this that makes people think feminists are crazy man-hating lesbians who don't shave.

Maybe what you're really revealing is that it YOU who thinks that way.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

TL;DR - America is a hole.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

TL;DR - America is a hole.

Wow, that escalated fast.

First you slag off entire groups of women for expressing a viewpoint you don't approve of, though you can't be bothered to say why, using nasty stereotypes about feminists and lesbians in the process.

Now you slur an entire nation of 331 million people as "a hole." Sounds an awful lot like when Trump denigrated entire nations as "shithole countries."

TL;DR in this case seems to be shorthand for, "can't support my views with arguments or evidence, don't have much of an attention span either."

[–]forwardback 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I never understood WHY the male psychology was not more deeply examined and questioned regarding their fertility. I'd often picture an After School Special or "the More You Know" campaign.. ;). For a sex that "bitched and moaned" about being "trapped, tricked, and abused" by women's biology and society's consequences, it was nonsensical to me that vasectomy was not more widely embraced by men. As you stated, vasectomy has no long term effect upon male performance or orgasm. For reproduction, either reversals, storage, or sperm harvesting are available.

Even worse, the number of men who vehemently opposed neutering their dogs!?! Projection! Has always struck me as a form of psychopathology that should be addressed. We needed a (I'm being slightly facetious here) female Freud to bring this oddity to light.

[–]Doobeedoo661 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said. Men are responsible for unwanted pregnancies, it’s not something I’ve contemplated. I always insist on condoms but I can attest, they’re not foolproof which is why - I thank god for abortions! Actually STD’s freak me out more than pregnancy, but that’s only because abortions are so accessible in Australia. Hmmmmm. As for the person complaining about misandry, lol that’s not actually a thing😋. If misandry were a thing, women would abort male foetuses exclusively the world over. Misandry - it’s not a thing, or is it...

[–]CitrusHeights 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But all that is besides the point today because since the 1980s huge advances have been made in vasectomy methods, and nowadays "no scalpel" vasectomies are widely available. The methods used today are very quick (10 minutes), require little down time (normal activity can be resumed in 48 hours), and they entail very little pain - meaning not only is no knife involved, but no needle is required to provide numbing medication either. Today's methods of no-knife vasectomy also have very low rates of complication.

Most of this is untrue or misleading, according to your own sources. Yes, "no scalpel" vasectomies are now available, but the technological achievement seems to be mostly a matter of semantics. One of your links states: "The no-scalpel technique is accomplished by using a small pointy instrument, a no-scalpel dissector, inserted into the anesthetized skin. This instrument is used to spread a small opening in the scrotal skin. Typically only one small opening is made in the center of the scrotum and this opening is typically no larger than an aspirin tablet. This area will usually heal closed within 3 days without the need for any stitches. The anesthetized vas deferens can be easily elevated through the small incision. Each vas deferens is divided using a small hand held battery device called a coagulator." Yes, no knife and no scalpel --- just a "small pointy instrument" to cut open the scrotum and pull the reproductive tubes outside the body so they can be severed. It's invasive surgery no matter how you describe it.

It's also misleading to say that normal activity can be resumed in 48 hours. Your Healthline link states: "Avoid intercourse and ejaculation for about a week after the procedure. Also refrain from heavy weightlifting, running, or other strenuous activities for at least a week. You may return to work and normal activities within 48 hours." Yes, I realize Healthline started the misleading by defining "normal" so narrowly, but you read this passage and didn't mention the other stuff. Most people consider those other activities normal.

I grant you that vasectomies usually succeed in stopping normal functioning without serious long-term complications. However, you and the OP are arguing for vasectomies being performed on all men as a form of birth control. This assumes that most men (and the women they're involved with!) will ultimately want to have the vasectomy reversed once they're ready to father a child, so vasectomy reversal is an integral part of the policy you're arguing for, and here the picture changes entirely.

Your fourth link describes a much more invasive and time-consuming procedure, with more side effects on the patient even when successful: "The procedure is done under magnification using fine 9-0 sutures and takes 1.5 to 3 hours to complete. Patients have their follow-up visit the day after their surgery and are then free to return home. Patients can return to work in 3 to 5 days and resume sexual activity after 2 weeks."

Fertility is restored in "up to 90% of cases," meaning that more than 10% of men will wind up sterilized against their will in a procedure you want to be universal. Your link at Healthline warns that vasectomy reversals usually need to be done within 10 years of the original procedure, and provides another link to Cornell University which states: "In many cases, the cut ends of the vas deferens can be surgically reattached. However, this operation, a microsurgical vasovasostomy, is expensive and, for a variety of reasons, does not guarantee a return to fertility. Vasectomy reversal appears to be more successful if performed within 10 years of the vasectomy, but again, there is no guarantee that fertility will be restored. Vasectomy should therefore be considered a permanent procedure. Before you choose to have a vasectomy, make quite sure that you and your partner do not want any more children."

https://urology.weillcornell.org/clinical-conditions/sexual-medicine/no-scalpel-vasectomy/treatment-options

On the subject of expense, your 4th link says a reversal operation (whether it succeeds or not) costs more than $7,000 US. You only admitted to $850 for the initial procedure and aftercare.

Your link also lists other side effects of vasectomy reversal. Occlusion of the vas deferens through aggressive scarring (3-10% of cases), painful hematoma formation (5%), infection (3%), serious bleeding (1%), chronic pain (1%), and testicular atrophy (0.5%). These numbers may look small, but they are cumulative, and the risk that a patient will suffer complications requiring further medical intervention or surgery would look to be about 13-19% based on these numbers (.97/.90 * .95 * .97 * .99 * .99 * .995). That's in addition to permanent lost fertility.

https://www.bestvasectomy.com/risks-of-vasectomy-reversal/

It's not important, but a little bit of web-sleuthing does show that Gabrielle Blair sees herself as feminist, six kids or not. Not clear to me why you think a Mormon mother can't be a feminist? In any case, her claim that vasectomies are "totally reversible" is - there's no sugarcoating this - a meretricious lie. People who undertake vasectomies, or want others to undertake them, should be fully informed of the risks and limits of the procedure. Medical professionals stress that it isn't meant to be used as birth control. Public policy has to be based on facts, not half-truths and insinuations. Think about your motives in trying to obscure that a vasectomy is an invasive surgical procedure. ("No knife," "no scalpel," "gentle touch"). We want people to make informed choices, don't we?

[–]Fuzz 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the author is somewhat overstating the reversability of vasectomies, they aren't "totally reversible", but they are pretty reversible, most of the time. Apparently the reversal is a much more intensive procedure than a vasectomy, which is really simple. Otherwise it's hard to disagree with anything she said.