Everyone, I really need your advice. It seems like I'm going to have to give my little sister some kind of sex/sexuality/gender identity all-in-one talk and I'm dreading it. She's almost 12 and already sucked into internet bs (and I suppose this is the age for that conversation regardless)

submitted by fuckupaddams from self.GenderCritical

I'm a decade older than her and no longer living at my parents' house (though I'm close) so I'm not even sure when/where to talk to her but I know I have to. I know way more about this shit than my mom does, if my mom gives any talk it would be a simple "sex is when penis goes into vagina and then baby forms," but you and I both know kids being raised on the internet today need way, way more information than that. You're competing with millions of voices on Twitter.

She's totally sucked into internet world already, has a youtube account, twitter account, and I just found her reddit account (though she hasn't posted anything yet, but her profile picture is about how trans is cool.) She's obsessed with yaoi (gay male ships) of fictional characters (I wish I didn't know that but this is what her twitter is about) and her bio on twitter says they/them. I can already smell the "I'm actually a gay trans boy" coming. Guys, she is ELEVEN YEARS FUCKING OLD. Yes, I know it's bullshit such a young kid is already so fucking invested in the internet. Yes I tell my mom every fucking chance I get. Regardless, this is what it is.

I need to talk to her. About toning it down with what she posts on the internet, about what the fuck gender is, what the fuck sex is, that just because she loves gay male ships doesn't mean she's a gay male... and then to throw on top of all of that I guess I need to tell her about actual sex too??

I'm afraid. My little sister is honestly a bit intimidating and I can see her running off after any conversation we have and posting all over her twitter about how her older sister said such weird and ridiculous things about sex and gender. I'm trying to not let that get to me, because she's a fucking child. I need to be an adult here.

HELP ME. Please. What do I say. How do I say it. Help me.

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[–]Shesstealthy 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I would say: keep the internet warnings to being careful about revealing who she is etc, people can lie about who they are, so she needs to be cautious about dodgy folk. Support her support for gay and yes trans people - she's showing her kindness and acceptance. Give her loads of examples of how women can be badass and non-comforming. Alert her to the risks of early transition (Jazz Jennings is a great example of negative side effects from blockers) Talk to her about completely unrelated things!

Keep it light. Don't try to stop her being trans. She might be happier that way one day but she needs to grow up first. Remember that what people post online is not always reflective of tbeir reality.

Japanese girls read yaoi voraciously and don't then decide they're men. It's a way of easing into sexuality, nonthreatening.

And see if you can get her doing some stuff offline. She's entering the icky years and exercise, getting out of her brain a bit, will help.

Don't panic.

[–]fuckupaddams[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

And see if you can get her doing some stuff offline.

Like what?

[–]ZeWombat 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm a big advocate of sports. Doesn't have to be organized sports leagues. Try to get her to do something with you. Could be trail running, biking, etc. Your involvement will probably need to be ongoing, not a one time drop-in w the talk.

I'm a very GNC lesbian, and I believe one of the reasons that the gender stuff never resonated w me is that I've always been into organized sports leagues and informal stuff like running, frisbee, climbing trees, anything really. I've always been in touch w my body, liked my body, appreciated what my body could do.

good luck to you-

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sports, art, reading, music, theater, would any of those interest her?

[–]fuckupaddams[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry, I totally read "online" instead of offline.

[–]Shesstealthy 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, depends on her interests. Could be dancing, hiking, running, gardening. You could regularly do something together.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hmmm. 1. most teenagers are questioning their sexuality / gender and you don't need a label now or ever— it can take a long time to figure things out so not knowing is perfectly ok and normal. If people don't accept her because she doesn't have a gender / sexuality label then they're not real friends. 2. It's ok to be into yaoi, most heterosexual women are and it does not make them men. However, real men are very different to yaoi men. Yaoi is written by women for other women to read and the "men" in those stories are fantasies of what a woman would want a man to be like. Maybe get her into jane austen or something? At least it's more age appropriate. The BBC series is really well done. I was obsessed with her books growing up.

Maybe show her something like the social dilemma on netflix as a way of starting to show her some of the manipulation that goes on on social media? Other things to point out might be:

  • Don't post: photos, location information (even just posting city), what school she goes to, age, any links to real-life people she knows or groups that she attends. If she's using twitter or some other site, make sure that it's not posting her location / location setting is off. Don't give out mobile numbers or email addresses.
  • Anonymous profiles mean that she could be talking to someone who is 30 but says they're a teenager, or a man who says they're a woman.
  • Anonymous profiles also mean that people are more confident bullying or abusing someone.
  • People can create multiple profiles and use the alternates to harass people, or post in a forum to make is seem like everyone agrees on a topic when they don't.
  • Some people get a kick out of pretending to be trans / LGB online because they like lying to people, and enjoy the "validation" others will give them for their lies.
  • People who are into doxxing or bullying other people are most probably sociopaths of some description. Stay well away.
  • You could describe how forums with up/down vote systems, and reblogging / retweeting systems creates echo chambers where a narrow set of ideas are circulated giving the appearance of a consensus.
  • Watch out for anyone that tells her that her family or (real-life) friends are bad / mean, or that she should cut herself off from them. This is a manipulation tactic that is designed to stop people from trusting / cut them off from the people who care most about them.
  • Anonymous people on the internet do not give a shit about her and what becomes of her. They are not her friends even though they may be friendly. Big difference.
  • Tell her to be very weary of people who claim to know what her sexuality or gender identity is, or to be able to interpret her feelings / experiences in a way that allows them to know what is actually going on with her— even when she doesn't have the answers. If she doesn't know this herself (and she is the only person who can work it out!) then others cannot either. Especially if the person is older than her, and what they say might make her feel uncomfortable or has big consequences. Very few adults have an interest in telling a child what their sexuality is (beyond telling them to work it out for themselves and not listen to people on the internet), adults who are not pedophiles or highly manipulative people will simply not care. It is manipulative to claim to be able to know things about people that they themselves cannot know. People online can't know her, and while these individuals may have good intentions in giving her advice, as a group they may be a bad community.
  • Be weary of groups or forums that make her feel special, understood or really happy when she doesn't have close, real-life relationships with any / most of the people in the group.

I wrote about this stuff more over here. https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/6erw/10_signs_your_in_a_cult_any_of_it_sound_familiar/ I'm not sure how much an 11 year old can understand of this, but some of these things might be more useful as she gets older or you could use simpler language.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Maybe instead of focusing on giving her an all-in-one talk, start doing things with her that will get her out of the house, off line and into the real world, including the natural world, and which will allow convos to occur more naturally.

Depending on what you can afford and what's available where you live, take her hiking or nature walking, swimming, bike riding, skateboarding, surfing, roller skating, skiing, sailing, horseback riding, ice skating... Take lessons with her to learn yoga, Zumba, jazzercize, martial arts, weightlifting, soul cycle, gymnastics, climbing and so on. Play tennis, badminton, soccer, chess or checkers with her. Take her to watch live sports - even if it's just the local HS or Jr High basketball game.

Go on some road trips. Just pick a place on a map neither of you have been and go there and both of you see what it's like.

Go camping. Live without electricity for a weekend or week and imagine what it was like back in the day...

Take her to art museums, libraries and concert halls. To the statehouse/capitol or seat of government in the country, state or province you live in. Take her to witness court proceedings.

Have her over to your place for sleepovers and weekends, and do stuff like cooking, listening to music, playing board games and Scrabble and Boggle, doing puzzles, making collages, learning various ways to make art, music, theater, needlework, fabric arts, painting, photography, photo editing, poetry. Build, make or grow something tangible and physical with her whose progress you can see in real time - could be a bird feeder, a garden, a mural.

Watch videos of amazing female athletes with her. Show her music videos from the 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Watch documentaries with her about all sorts of topics, from Beatlemania to the cultural revolution in China to the Romanovs. Read books with her like "I Am Malala," Vivian Gornick's "Fierce Attachments," "Anne Frank," "Behind Rebel Lines," "Code Name Verity" and a zillion more.

When she's a bit older, watch the film "Thirteen" with her, and the TV series "Chewing Gum."

Watch movies with her that show the power of people her age generally like "Empire of the Sun" - and which in particular highlight the intelligence and power of girls like "Rabbit-proof Fence" (2002), "The Snow Walker" (2003) and "To Kill A Mockingbird" (1962).

Be silly, have fun. Model resilience, civility and geniality. Be the vibrant, well-rounded, open-minded, good-natured person you would hope she can become.

[–]PeakingPeachEater 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

OP, this is really good advice from MarkTwainiac!

Just wanted to add, if your sister DOES want to talk to you in particular about her gender related topics, ask her questions in a calm way about "Why do you believe [you must transition to male] for XYZ reason?" And perhaps share her examples of gender non-comforming women and how it's okay to be born female.

This is my perspective coming from someone with a younger brother in his early 20s where he's the type to not like being told what to do(who does?). If he makes silly sexist remarks, I challenge him and ask him. I explain to him coming from my perspective how calling women "wenches" isn't a cute "medieval" term just because he's obsessed with medieval videogames and they say it...

And...I'm also an atheist parent with a christian partner. When the little one grows older, I don't want to persuade the little one to BE like me, I will let little one think critically for himself. I saw some atheist parenting forums explaining that...

Lastly, I detransitioned. I was a "butch" girl(now GNC woman), and thought I needed to transition based on how it was for me growing up. Came from traditional, religious, abusive household. Men can do whay they want. Women cannot and are expected to be submissive to men. I was also the only girl, so my brothers were free to do as they pleased. My "friends" were into the genderfluid nonsense and non-binary crap, and tried to put a label on me.

I saw how big the world was once I graduated senior high and went to a uni, free from household and FREE to be me. I discovered it's OK for women to be who they are without transitioning.

Anyway, lol sorry for ramble. I do highly recommend MarkTwainiac's approach. Your sister is young and just needs a good role model(you) to learn from and your sister will greatly appreciate it down the line.

[–]jet199 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here's a good article about competing narratives. https://thewholestory.solutionsjournalism.org/complicating-the-narratives-b91ea06ddf63

You shouldn't worry about winning the argument. Ask her why she believes what she does and why it's important to her. Then tell her what's important to you which make you believe differently.

[–]BEB 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Get your parents to supervise her internet usage and take away her phone.

You can show your parents r/detrans, the sub for kids who've been sucked into transitioning and now deeply regret it. You can also show your parents 4thWaveNow.com an invaluable resource for parents of kids who want to transition.

Also, show your parents exactly what your sister's looking at.

It's your parents' job, not yours so start by educating your parents and then let them do their job.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

BEB, you are assuming the parents here are rational, responsible, well-meaning people who've merely slacked off for a bit and been temporarily inattentive coz they are clueless about what a cesspit and hellscape so much of the internet is - and who will respond to their older daughter "educating" them with a thank you very much, of course you're right dear, now that you've set us straight, we'll snap to and do our job as parents forthwith.

What if this is not the case? What if they take umbrage and say, how dare you? What if they tell addams to mind her own business and get stuffed?

My hunch is that the parents in this situation might be seriously derelict in their duties as parents coz that's their way - and it could be for all sorts of reasons: alcoholism, drug addiction, clinical depression, bipolar disorder, chronic physical illness, extramarital affairs, being consumed with their jobs, maybe they themselves are addicted to the internet or porn, or maybe they are just neglectful parents with poor character and serious personality problems. Like the parents in "Running With Scissors" and "The Glass Castle." The reasons those books became such huge bestsellers is coz so many people have grown up in homes with crazy, irresponsible parents like the ones those memoirs describe.

If addams follows your advice, my hunch is it very likely will lead to resentment from the parents and lots of battles with them. Telling addams to focus her energies on "educating" her own parents and trying to change them so they finally do the job the already are failing at and don't seem to be interested in doing is placing an enormous, unfair burden on addams - and, IMO, setting her up for failure.

The parents here are adults, FFS. And they are her parents too, not just little sister's parents.

What you are advocating is exactly the opposite of what I learned as a young person in Al- Ateen (the youth version of Al-Anon) - which is the way to help younger siblings in a toxic home environment with a fucked-up mom and dad is not to try to change mom and dad and show them the errors of their ways; it's to spend time and energy directly befriending the younger siblings, doing stuff with them, getting them out of the house, helping them find and develop their own interests and strengths, helping them see there's a big - and better - world out there, "being there" for them emotionally and in other ways...

Also, all the time addams would be focused on trying to educate her parents and telling them how to do their job, the little sister would still be left alone in her room on the internet with no one in the family paying attention to her. The best way to help the little sister, IMO, is to get her out of the house - away from the internet, and away from those parents - and do things with her. Have fun with her. Participate in a variety of activities with her.

Once addams and little sister have spent time doing pleasurable stuff with each other - and younger sib feels really at home and that her relationship with big sis rests on a solid foundation of trust, good will, positive energy, tolerance and geniality - the opportunities for the convos addams wants to have with her will present themselves as a matter of course - and the dialogue can happen naturally, in fits and starts, here and there, the way convos normally do.

[–]BEB 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with all your suggestions.

My response was based on what the poster said, which made it seem that it's not that her mother is negligent, just that her mother is not clued in. Many parents have no idea about the secret life their child is leading on the internet.

So every situation is different, but from what the poster said, the mother seems more uninformed than a neglectful parent.

[–]Sunflowerdevyl 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh she is 100% reading, viewing hentai (anime porn), and possibly writing about male homosexual sex. If she continues, genderwoowoo is her future. She needs to be off the internet and interacting with actual human beings again. Finding activities away from screens if you can might help.

Insight-this was me. Me and my friend group loved anime, and the stuff geared towards that age group was sexual even back then. I can't believe I was allowed to watch/read some of it (and what I got my hands on anyway was nothing short of graphic pornography), and 15 years ago the internet was not as accessible so the fact I had to purchase most of my stuff should let you know she has access to much more hardcore materials than we did back then. And why? Because yaoi is written by women for women as idealized male relationships. The boys around her suck, and fake ones are better - at least how most of us felt. And of course they were! They were a woman's fantasy. As an adult, I still enjoy some anime but stay far away from the 'community' because it's predatory as fuck. Hell, a lot of anime is predatory and there are loopholes exploited by artists to involve actual pedophilia.

And it's probably against the grain here- but I say let her pretend as long as there is no medical intervention. If I were to speak for myself, I'd say she's probably just wanting to dress 'masculine' because being a female 11 year old is uncomfortable and her female anime role models tend to be sexualized. She might even want to cosplay male characters because she likes them better or they have better (less revealing) costumes.

So, back to your problem. If it were me and you have the ability, I'd enroll with her in martial arts, Jui Jitsu, MMA just something where she can go and learn to feel strong in her body and be away from screens and she could pretend she was training to be a ninja instead of a boy. Or a sewing/ art class so she can make her own costumes/comics. The sex convo will probably make her run in the other direction, but a gentle reminder that her posts may attract attention she is not ready for because of the way she is portraying herself. Let her know you know she is going to post, you can't control it but you want her to be mindful of her content (and that men are disgusting-don't post any photos ever). When social media started becoming mainstream, a question my hs teachers would ask is 'is what you are posting something you would want me or an employer to see?". Remind her that everything she puts on the internet can be traced back to her, and that it does follow you (shout-out to the former cam models trying to get jobs-I hear it's tough when your boss can find pictures of your privates). And if she starts being defensive, you found her content. It stands to reason that others can as well.

And if you need to go hardcore, and I mean last resort, print her posts and post them around your parent's house. If she is confident in what she is saying, she should have no problem with Mom and Dad seeing it all. Then get her therapy.

[–]zephyranthes 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

She's 11. You need to talk to mom and have mom take your sister off the interwebs. Show mom stink ditches, horror sausages, Jonny Yaniv, Pansy Gronski, pedophile Phil Wythe in the women's, that other pedophile simulating a pregnancy and trying to rent a baby to suck its nipples, the whole deal. Say: these are the people grooming your daughter. Show her the hawtt yaoi boi human potato Colt Seidman. Say: this is what she will look like as an adult if you don't take her off the internets RIGHT THIS INSTANT.

Your sister shouldn't get a say. She's 11. She's too young for the good arguments.

[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

EXACTLY. She is 11. She is not the boss of the adults in her life, her parents are the boss of her.

Educate your parents as to what she's up to and what the possible consequences are and get them to get her off the internet PERIOD.

Your parents own the computers. She is very much dependent on them. Take the computer and the phone away, or be there when she uses them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

EXACTLY. She is 11. She is not the boss of the adults in her life, her parents are the boss of her.

Educate your parents as to what she's up to and what the possible consequences are and get them to get her off the internet PERIOD.

But to me this sounds like you are telling the older sibling, addams - who from her post is a mere 21/22 herself - to be the boss of her parents, no? Sounds like you are saying it's her job to educate her own parents and somehow "get them to get (little sister) off the internet."

I think putting this burden on a young woman of 21/22 is not in her best interest, and it could well backfire - resulting in a situation where the younger sis is not helped, and the older one ends up more distressed. But that's just my opinion. We can agree to disagree.

But to be fair to addams, please be more specific about exactly how you think she at 21/22 should go about educating her parents and getting them to change their ways.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The poster is putting the responsibility of all this on herself and her choice is to "educate" the parents or "educate" the child.

But the only people with any control of this 11-year-old (!!!) are her parents. The poster can talk to the child until she's blue in the face but unless the parents step in and yank that child back into reality, the 11-year-old is going to sink further into her internet obsessions.

So, given that the child's mother is not clued in, the best way for the poster to help is to clue in the mother about the danger the child faces and let the mother handle it, while also supporting both the parents and the child.

I did mention that the poster could show her mother the r/detrans sub and 4thWaveNow.com. There is also Abigail Shrier's book IRREVERSIBLE DAMAGE. There's also the Detransition Advocacy Network:

https://www.detransadv.com/

But given the choice of a 21-year-old sibling with no real power and who doesn't live in the home, trying to get this kid off the internet, and parents who control computer/phone access, where the child goes, who the child interacts with, etc., it's clear to me that the parents are the ones who need to step in.

[–]zephyranthes 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But to me this sounds like you are telling the older sibling, addams - who from her post is a mere 21/22 herself - to be the boss of her parents, no? Sounds like you are saying it's her job to educate her own parents and somehow "get them to get (little sister) off the internet."

Not be the boss of her parents, educate them. Presidents have advisors, you know. Her parents are uninformed that people on the internet are grooming their child.

The child cannot consent to grooming. Trying to negotiate with the child to make her change her mind is nonsensical, because the child could not have consented. In some places, it's even illegal to provide her with the information for her to make an, uh, informed choice. The older sister should not be telling an 11-year-old about Yaniv trying to insert tampons into teen girls or Phil "Ana Valens" Wythe's rape camps. The people who are responsible for access to the child are the parents. They, with their parental authority, should decisively shut down grooming attempts and continue to safeguard the child.

The older sister should not be the one talking to the girl. She does not have parental authority, she can only "persuade", and we've already established the girl cannot be meaningfully "persuaded" because she can't give consent. Furthermore, I think it's bad parenting to argue with the child if you're going to put your foot down anyway, by proxy or otherwise. It robs the child of of autonomy in those aspects of her life she can be trusted with, like clothes, or food, or scheduling, or choice of advanced courses for college.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Presidents have advisors, you know. Her parents are uninformed that people on the internet are grooming their child.

Presidents have other adults as advisors. Even presidents who've had family members and in-laws as advisors have not customarily asked such young persons to take up this role. From Chester Arthur to Bobby Kennedy to Dick Cheney to Jared Kushner, there's not a tradition of Presidents relying on 21/22 year-old family members or friends as advisors. Or are you suggesting that Richard Nixon considered his SIL David Eisenhower to be one of his advisors?

Her parents are uninformed that people on the internet are grooming their child.

But the cluelessness of the parents is their fault; it's not the responsibility of the older sibling to correct it.

The older sister should not be the one talking to the girl. She does not have parental authority, she can only "persuade", and we've already established the girl cannot be meaningfully "persuaded" because she can't give consent. Furthermore, I think it's bad parenting to argue with the child if you're going to put your foot down anyway, by proxy or otherwise. It robs the child of of autonomy in those aspects of her life she can be trusted with, like clothes, or food, or scheduling, or choice of advanced courses for college.

I didn't say the older sister should try to "persuade" the younger one. I said the older sister should befriend the younger sister, get her out of the house, show her a different way...

I don't understand the rest of your post.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It sounds like your parents won't pull her off the Internet, which is a shame. If you told your mom her daughter is identifying as a "they," would that change her mind? How would your parents react if your sister told them she wanted testosterone or surgery? Are they okay with medicalizing their minor child?

Talking to your sister directly sounds like it's going to be difficult, but I would at least try. You have nothing to lose and a great deal to gain. Who cares if she throws a tantrum on Twitter? She needs to know that liking gay fan fiction does not mean that she is a boy, and that lots of young girls are getting caught up in something that will have serious health ramifications for their entire adult lives.

I'd also talk to her about straight porn and how it portrays women in such a violent and degrading way. I believe this may be a major reason why so many young girls are trying to flee womanhood. If your sister hasn't seen straight porn yet, she will soon. And if she's tuned into pop culture, she's already been exposed to many pornified messages alleging women's sexual inferiority.

[–]Cicerosolo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your sister is fucked. Anything you do will poison her and everyone's thoughts against you. All you can reasonably do is be an ocean of stable maturity and answer direct questions only and even then you need to be sensitive that she wants to this and you can do fuck all to change it.

[–]WrongToy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I might say that it might be that she is trans, or it might be a whole bunch of other things. There's really no hurry to figure it out.

[–]zephyranthes 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No one is "trans".

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

edited my comment to add more stuff