When it comes to the Bathroom thing, what do you say about the Women who claim they have no problem with TIMs being in the restroom?

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

So I notice that whenever the inevitable discussion of "Transwomen" in women's restrooms comes up, I notice that when I bluntly say that I don't believe any man has any right being in the women's restroom, no matter how deluded he thinks he is (I.E thinks he's a woman), I will usually get some women snap back at me saying that they personally don't mind or care if Trans-identified men use the women's restrooms and that it's not a big deal.

Obviously the topic is split because you have women who absolutely don't want them in there and then you have these other women who think otherwise and I was just curious how you go about you go about the conversation when you have women who say that trans-identified men using women's restrooms are not a big deal and should be allowed to. I have tried showing stories of attacks that have happened to women getting assaulted in the bathroom but they usually swat it away and say "cherry-picking" or "That rarely happens" or my favorite, "They weren't even real trans, just a predator".

all 71 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]MarkTwainiac 34 insightful - 4 fun34 insightful - 3 fun35 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

I will usually get some women snap back at me saying that they personally don't mind or care if Trans-identified men use the women's restrooms and that it's not a big deal.

I tell them that shared facilities such as public, school, workplace and club toilets and changing rooms are not their personal property, so their personal feelings are immaterial. These spaces do not belong to them, so they don't get to rewrite the rules about who can access them.

Sex-segregated spaces are meant to benefit female and male people on the whole, and shared toilet facilities in particular are tailored to the very different urinary and genital anatomy and biological needs of the two sexes.

Hence, in the men's, there's both a toilet or two in an enclosure and urinals out in the open. Urinals are tailored exclusively to males, and only males, coz only they stand to pee. Urinals typically don't have privacy screens between them coz male anatomy and clothing design mean males can pee standing up without dropping their trousers and exposing their backsides and balls to all the other males who are there.

By contrast, in the women's loo there are stalls with toilets and toilet paper dispensers, coz female people have to sit to pee and we need to wipe our urethras and vulvas after peeing - we can't just give a shake the way males can with their dicks. In the ladies, the toilets are also enclosed in stalls that provide a degree of visual privacy, coz females have to bare our genitals and backsides in order to urinate.

What's more, for girls and women "using the ladies" isn't just about peeing. It's also about dealing with menstruation - and unforeseen events like miscarriages and menopausal flooding. As a result, in addition to providing some visual privacy, the stalls in women's loos are equipped with specials bins for used tampons and pads.

Due to our different anatomy and biological needs, hand-washing facilities in communal loos are more an issue for females than males. Research has shown that most males don't wash their hands after urinating in shared facilities. However, most girls and women do, coz after peeing we use our hand to wipe our "privates."

What's more, girls and women often need to wash blood off our hands after using the toilet. And sometimes, we need to use toilet washing facilities to wash blood stains - and milk stains from leaking breasts - from our clothing. This often requires removing an item of clothing - such as a skirt, school uniform, or blouse or top - and standing there at the sink and under the dryer in our undergarments. Maybe some girls and women would be perfectly fine doing all this under the watchful, perhaps prurient and leering eyes of their male schoolmates, work colleagues and/or any strange Tom, Dick or Harry off the street. But most girls and women are not fine with it; most would find it embarrassing and discomforting.

Another issue that many women face in dealing with communal toilets, particularly public ones, is how to pee when you've got a child or several in tow. Most stalls can't fit a pram or stroller, so often a mother with a baby in one - and perhaps a toddler running around too - has no choice but to drop her pants and pee with the stall door open so she can keep her eye on the kid(s).

Since the vast majority of males (88% in 2015, probably more like 98% today) who identify as trans do not alter their urinary anatomy and genitals, there's no reason why facilities designed for female anatomy would somehow be appropriate for them. Even most TIMs who are most "passable" - Blaire White, Gigi Gorgeous, Munroe Bergdorf etc - all have their dicks and balls.

What's more, whether they keep their dicks and balls or not, for males, the motivation for going trans is always sexual: most TIMs are heterosexuals with autogynephilia who desire to be women coz it brings them erotic pleasure, but they still want to have sex with women too. If what they say on social media is any indication, quite a large number of TIM TRAs are rapey. Moreover, some are convicted rapists and sex abusers; and many - Jess Bradley, Yaniv, the ones who send/sent dick pics to women like JKRowling - are flashers, voyeurs and pervs. And even most gay guys who identify as the opposite sex usually fetishize being female and have an unseemly, prurient interest in the bodies and bodily functions of female people.

In addition, most TIMs are selfish, highly narcissistic fellas who not only have little or no empathy for actual girls and women, and no understanding of our "lived experience" - they also are intent on violating the boundaries of female people, establishing their superiority to "cis girls" and demanding that we "validate" their identities. This is true even of the very small number who've had surgeries to remove their balls and reconfigure their dicks. Coz having genital surgeries and taking cross-sex hormones does not alter the mentality of these guys or make them any less male.

If some women are A-okay having males like this around when they unclothe their genitals and backsides in order to deal with private bodily matters of female anatomy, that's their choice. But most girls and women are not comfortable having to put up with men's selfishness, sexual fetishes, prying eyes, keenly listening ears and distinctly male dominance displays in spaces where we are most exposed and vulnerable. Coz most of us have an innate sense of modesty, a desire for dignity and ease of mind, and we want a few spaces where we can deal with our own bodily needs without being forced to be cheek-to-jowl with males and their sexual proclivities.

Female-only spaces designed to accommodate female biology and to provide safety, dignity and privacy are used by girls and women of all ages, and with vastly different views, needs and sensibilities. It doesn't matter if some individual women are okay with opening up these spaces to men and older boys. Lots of girls and women are not okay with it, and their rights are not for the women you speak of to give - or wave - away. It's not the place of any of us to give away the rights of others!

Laws, safeguarding policies and social customs aren't based on what any one individual person wants, and we as individuals don't get to dictate or change the norms and conditions for all of society based on our own personal feelings.

Also, I'd ask these women why is it that sex-separate toilets, change rooms and similar facilities were established in the first place. And I'd further ask them if they know the history of how these facilities came into existence as well.

I'd also ask them if they are aware of the considerable amount of thought and discussion that parents, educators, developmental psychologists and safeguarding experts have put in over the generations about such issues as: At what age is it no longer appropriate for young boys to use ladies loos and changing rooms with their moms or female carers? What is the age when most school policies say girls and boys need separate toilets and changing/locker rooms?

[–]SweetBabyCheeses 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes this. Exactly this. It’s brilliant. All I had to add was I don’t like sharing loos with blokes (eg on planes) because they have a habit of pissing everywhere and not always washing their hands. And wanking.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good points! I hate that spunk smell that wankers leave, particularly in airplane loos. Yuk.

The issue about males pissing all over the seat and on the floor around the toilet is important: in mixed-sex loos girls and women not only have to step in male urine to use the toilet, we have to visually inspect and wipe off the seat before doing so. Which puts us in the position - once again - of having to clean up the messes males make in the most literal way. Also, the urine of males past puberty often has an awful stench!

[–]Jksmiddlefinger 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is a perfect and comprehensive answer. I’m definitely using the points listed in future!

Does anyone have any links to the history of the advent of women’s bathrooms? It’s something I’ve always taken for granted without thinking about how it came about.

[–]BEB 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Sexism in the Bathroom Debates: How Bathrooms Really Became Seperated by Sex" Yale Law & Policy Review November 2018

https://ylpr.yale.edu/sexism-bathroom-debates-how-bathrooms-really-became-separated-sex

Also do searches for the "urinary leash" - which is how lack of sex-segregated bathrooms literally kept women from leaving the house for more than a few hours and therefore out of the public sphere.

[–]Shesstealthy 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

we need to wipe our urethras and vulvas after peeing - we can't just give a shake the way males can with their dicks

Been standing and shaking a bit after a pee all my life - omg i must be a man

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry!

Correction: I should have said that in the West, many/most girls and women wipe with TP/loo roll. In much of the rest of the world, TP/loo roll isn't so common.

[–]BEB 23 insightful - 7 fun23 insightful - 6 fun24 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Tell them that if they're fine with men in their restroom to use the men's restroom because CONSENT IS NOT TRANSFERABLE.

[–]artetolife 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

That's why I try to stick to talking about the importance of single-sex spaces in general rather than mentioning bathrooms.

[–]BEB 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The bathroom thing is a Red Herring. Trans demands activists still only talk about bathrooms, because denying these poor helpless men the chance to pee is so selfish of us horrible old crones.

The reality is that almost all self-ID legislation allows men access to every women's traditionally sex-segregated space: locker rooms, hospital rooms, nursing home rooms, prison cells, rape crisis center, longterm disability care, homeless and domestic violence shelters.

As I always say, give trans activists a millimeter (bathrooms) and they take your world.

[–]artetolife 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes exactly. TRAs love the 'bathroom debate' because it is such an easy way to win over people who don't care to think about what self-ID really entails.

[–]BEB 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People don't know that it goes well beyond bathrooms, and that ignorance is deliberate. The gender lobby deliberately works in the dark because they know that people would reject these laws if they knew.

There's an expose on the gender lobby's deliberate stealth, have you seen it?

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The bathroom thing is a Red Herring.

I'm not sure that it is, if red herring still means what it used to mean: a distraction or dodge meant to mislead or distract from what's really important. I think that shared toilets in workplaces, schools, public accommodations are a genuine, legitimate and major concern for both girls/women and the trans-identified males who want into ladies loos.

Most of us can still participate pretty fully in life without using a change room in a retail shop, or a change room and showers at a gym, pool or other recreational facility. The vast majority of the population will not end up in prison, or have need of shelters, refuges or even in long-term care homes. In some health systems like the UK's NHS, wards with many patient beds in one large room are the norm, but in the USA private rooms are pretty common in hospitals nowadays.

But none of us can participate in life beyond the home AT ALL unless we can access a toilet. All of us need to pee numerous times a day; emptying the bladder is a basic need, not a choice, preference or hobby.

I think it would be more accurate to characterize "the bathroom thing" as the thin edge of the wedge rather than a red herring.

[–]BEB 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I meant that the gender lobby made a big deal about the bathrooms, as if that were the issue, when their true intent went well past bathrooms. And they fall back on bathrooms even now, to make women seem as if we're hysterical prudes for not wanting them in our spaces.

But here is my bottom line (this isn't addressed to you!!!! these are just my thoughts) we all have to accommodate others when we are in public. For instance, we can't go nude.

If TiMs want to dress as they wish, it's their responsibility to convince society, specifically other males, to accept them.

I am not a human shield for a man who wants to wear a dress, especially given that all he has to do is simply change his appearance and his "oppression" disappears.

tl;dr TiMs' bathroom needs are not my fucking problem.

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Actually, quite a good case can be made for why females and males need separate toilet facilities (aka bathrooms) specifically.

Male and female toilet facilities are designed differently based on the very different urinary and genital anatomy of the two sexes. What's more, female toilet facilities are used very differently to males ones as well coz of the additional bodily functions and needs girls and women have as a result of our female reproductive systems.

Instead of not mentioning bathrooms, I'd suggest learning to make a detailed, robust argument why they are sex-segregated in the first place - and why remaining that way matters to most women and girls. I give some of the reasons in my very long post above.

Also: https://fairplayforwomen.com/miscarriages-pub-toilet-gender-neutral/

Finally, the vast majority of males also prefer that shared toilet facilities in places like workplaces, schools, clubs, theaters, airports and other public accommodations remain sex-segregated.

[–]artetolife 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I did read your comment and it would be very robust coming from another woman, not a man like myself and OP I don't think.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the argument would come off robustly when made by a man, too. Please speak up on our behalf. It's fine for men to talk about issues like the difference in female urinary anatomy, and issues that affect only women such as menstruation and miscarriage so long as it's not in a pervy way. You don't have to present yourself as the ultimate authority. Just say, "from what I've heard and seen women say, there are actually a bunch of reasons to keep toilet provisions separated by sex."

This guy did a good job:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6897005/DOMINIC-LAWSON-inconvenient-truth-unisex-loos-women-loathe-them.html

These male reporters have been able to report on the topic just fine:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7834503/Female-staff-refuse-use-MoDs-new-15-000-gender-neutral-toilets-smelly.html

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/researcher-rubbishes-council-claims-of-zero-complaints-over-mixed-gender-loos-in-dundee-schools/

In fact, a lifetime of talking about these matters with men as well as women have made me aware that sex-segregated toilets (and other facilities like change rooms and locker rooms) are important for boys and men too. Many boys and men would feel uncomfortable if girls & women were in the men's loos when they used the urinals, and lots of guys would have a hard time taking a crap in a stall if they knew a woman was in the next one.

As a mother of (now grown) sons, I can attest that it's important for the boundaries of males to be respected to, particularly young boys when they are entering and in the throes of puberty. Since this is a feminist sub, we focus on girls and women's issues - but boys during puberty have their own embarrassments and anxiety-provoking bodily issues to deal with, from spontaneous erections in inappropriate situations (such as when around their moms, sisters and teachers) to nocturnal emissions to really smelly BO and worry about their dick size. Just as I don't want to have to attend to my toileting needs in the company of my sons, brother, ex-father-in-law, male colleagues etc I can assure you none of those guys want to have to do the same with me looking on and listening.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Right so pretty much bringing up other places like Women's sports, shelters, locker rooms, and prisons (which even then, they'll still try to argue against).

[–]artetolife 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah. But it's harder to be dismissive when you are talking about vulnerable people in scenarios they quite likely have never had to think about. A lot of people just accept the 'we just want to pee!' propaganda and put no more thought into it at all.

[–]lefterfield 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

What do those women tell women who do have a problem with it?

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm reminded of that one video Magdalen Berns did where she responded to Jaclyn Glenn's video about the trans bathroom thing and Jacyln was saying that women who have a problem with TIMs in the bathroom need to get over it.

[–]our_team_is_winning 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What do those women tell women who do have a problem with it?

I had a woman tell me "would you want to prove you are female every time before you enter the women's room? How are you going to prove you're a woman?"

[–]BEB 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tell them that since the advent of women's bathroom, which women had to fight tooth and nail for, we women have been fine with sussing out who is a man and who is not.

Trans advocates always bring up a mythical butch lesbian who has been questioned in a women's bathroom because she appears male as a reason we should allow any man into our bathrooms.

I tell them that women don't really question other women in women's bathrooms, because if the woman questioned is indeed a male, chances are the questioning real woman will get the shit beaten out of her.

And it's trans advocates fucking fault that women would even start to question a butch dyke in a bathroom, because it's trans advocates passing the laws that allow men in bathrooms. Before all their fucking bathroom bills, women would assume that everyone in the bathroom with her was a woman.

I went to school with tons of butch dykes, even went to the bathroom with them, and never had a problem telling them from men.

[–]Jksmiddlefinger 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Remind them that it’s not needed because 95% of them don’t even come close to passing.

[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can spot TiMs as soon as I see them (I spent a lot of times in countries where gay men are forced or semi-forced to transition rather than live as gay men)

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I had a woman tell me "would you want to prove you are female every time before you enter the women's room? How are you going to prove you're a woman?"

Proving one's sex was never necessary at any previous time in history. Used to be, everyone knew the differences between male and female, grew up knowing which sex they were, understood that figuring out the sex of adult others is something humans have evolved to do in a flash - and the vast majority generally operated according to the unwritten social contract and accepted codes of decorum...

Now we live in a hyper-individualist free for all, when "I can do whatever the hell I want and you can't tell me otherwise" is fast replacing having manners, showing respect for others and caring about social cohesion and trying to do what's what's best for society as a whole. Worse, now the very notion of material reality is being widely rejected: biological sex is a white-supremacist, colonialist construct, penises are female, and penises are no more significant or distinguishing a body part than freckles or wavy hair.

[–]jelliknight 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Literally no one has ever suggested underpants checks at the door.

What is LEGAL and what happens IN PRACTICE are different. Legally, I'm not allowed to swerve around an animal on the road. I still do, and should, but the law exists so that if I cause an accident saying "I saw a bird" isn't a defense.

When it's not LEGAL for any man to be in a woman's bathroom, any hypothetically passing TIM can use it. And be actually safer because there are no "cis men" getting in. Women do not, in practice, stop butch looking women and demand to see their genitals. We don't question anyone because the chance that we're wrong would be humiliating to all parties. But when a TIM or 'cis male' is creeping women out we're able to get them removed because the law is clear about which side it's on. The law exists so that a creep can't use "i feel like a girl today" as a defense.

When it is made legal for any man to use the women's bathrooms, there is no way to remove a creep. There could be 10 men in there making sexual threats to you, and you can't make them leave or even report it. You're the bigot if you do. You can't prove what they said or did, you can't prove 'creepy'. The law's stance is "get raped first, then i might care. IF you can prove it." Literally every rapist and pedophile is allowed in women's bathrooms. Allowed to hang out in there all day long if they like, until AFTER they've been proven to have committed a crime. And once they get out of prison they can use them again. In practice the result is that all vulnerable women are excluded form all public bathrooms and therefore have limited access to public spaces.

The next town over from me houses a protection prison, i.e. lots of pedophiles get released from there and walk straight into the community. Ask that woman next time, how many of them she thinks should be able to hang out in the women's public toilets without being questioned?

[–]our_team_is_winning 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And once they get out of prison they can use them again

Out of the women's prison no doubt! I will save your post and send it to her if she ever says this again (I've been avoiding my friend of 20 years over her Wokeness).

[–]LasagnaRossa 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Exactly. I'm one of those women who don't mind, but if the majority has a problem with it, I would support them.

[–]BEB 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In the US, you can see inside bathrooms stalls.

The US Equality Act allows ANY man to access women's bathrooms, so ANY man can watch you pee, change your tampon, wipe yourself.

And ANY man can steal your used sanitary products, as some TiMs do to gratify their fetish.

So NO. That's it. NO.

[–]LasagnaRossa 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ooohhh I forgot that bathroom stalls are different in the United States! Here (Italy) everything is locked, there's no reason to be afraid. In fact my university had genderless bathrooms and we never had a problem with it.

Btw why are American stalls so see-through? What were they trying to accomplish?

[–]BEB 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The US stalls aren't exactly see-through: they do not go from floor to ceiling, but only a very tall woman with heels on might be able to look over the walls.

You can look under the door, if you put your head almost to the floor, but women don't do that to other women.

US bathrooms also have cracks between the door and the front walls where the hinges and the lock are, and, while you can't get a perfect view of the inside unless you put your eye to the crack, you can kind of see what the person inside is doing.

I don't think that whoever designed US bathrooms ever came close to imagining that one day men would demand access to women's bathrooms under the guise that biological sex doesn't exist, so the designers probably thought they'd given women enough privacy.

I actually am less frightened in US bathrooms when they are actually sex-segregated than in the group cubicle bathrooms, because a man could push you in the cubicle and assault you with no one knowing, whereas in US bathrooms, other women who entered the main area would be able to see and help you.

[–]SpatOuttheKoolaid 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They get called terfs and cancelled.

[–]yousaythosethings 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I honestly think most think of them as or equivalent to small, delicate, effeminate gay men who are seeking refuge from violent, homophobic redneck men, since the classic profile of a transsexual male is an effeminate homosexual male. They have no idea the reality of the trans population because of the gag order surrounding any (ironically) intersectional/demographic analysis. They have no idea of autogynephilia. I didn't. But everyone who I've informed about AGP has their mind blown. However, in order for them to understand it, they need at least a basic understanding of cluster B personality disorders. Once they have that, everything they've heard suddenly starts clicking into place and they see the nature of the "activism" in an entirely new light.

Also, most women think the trans population is very, very low and that in many cases they would not be able to tell that someone was trans. They think of this as a fringe issue they don't understand, and so defer to others while they fall back on their instincts to be sympathetic and not appear like judgmental bitches.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

While I never wanted to share the bathrooms with them (because they are still men), I did think TIMs were all effeminate gay men with self-hate issues. That was until I learned about the cotton ceilling and AGP, of course. It's no wonder transactivists try very hard to deny these things, because I think public support will plummet once more people hear of them. But what I still don't understand is, even if it were true that all TIMs are completely harmless, how so many women don't see that allowing them in the women's bathrooms it's a big loophole that sex offenders can easily exploit? That was first thing I though the first time I heard about the bathroom issue, back when I didn't know about AGP.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

They have no idea of autogynephilia. I didn't. But everyone who I've informed about AGP has their mind blown. However, in order for them to understand it, they need at least a basic understanding of cluster B personality disorders. Once they have that, everything they've heard suddenly starts clicking into place and they see the nature of the "activism" in an entirely new light.

Unfortunately none of the people I know have that understanding so whenever I do mention AGP, they just don't get it and think I'm spending too much time on the internet and not in the real world.

Also, most women think the trans population is very, very low and that in many cases they would not be able to tell that someone was trans. They think of this as a fringe issue they don't understand, and so defer to others while they fall back on their instincts to be sympathetic and not appear like judgmental bitches.

Yes this is very true. Because while the internet may make it seem like TIMs are very common, they really aren't and so some women don't see the possibility of having their space invaded so it makes it easy for them to brush it off while getting woke points.

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The knowledge of cluster B’s and especially narcissistic personality disorder truly is crucial. People who are not aware of these disorders have an entirely different world view. They cannot understand what would motivate monstrously callous behavior and so they write it off as hyperbole. You basically always have to test for how naive someone is about cluster b’s before getting into the worst aspects of gender activism. And if they have no knowledge you have to essentially prime them on that first. We should be in a time where people have more knowledge then ever of NPD because of Donald Trump but yes you still hear people say that they don’t understand what motivates him or ponder when he believes his own bullshit, when a basic understanding of narcissism easily answers all of this.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What you said all makes sense and yeah unfortunately like I said, most people I've encountered in my personal life just don't have that knowledge. However I recently did kinda make some leeway with my brother... Sorta. During this whole Blaire white lying about that Trans Athlete scandal that is blowing up in his face, my brother has denounced his admiration for him and he told me that he didn't understand why Blaire lied and wasn't owning up to it at the time to where I commented that Blaire suffers from NPD, the signs are obvious from thinking highly of himself, never taking accountability for his actions, and giving a false sense of responsibility only when it benefits him (The Riley Dennis apology where he banked off it. Not that RJD is a good person, he's trash but it's obvious why Blaire apologized to him quickly as opposed to this athlete that took 2 weeks to give a half ass apology). My brother thought about it and he agreed with me when he actually thought about it, plus when I mentioned all the other scandals & lies that Blaire was caught up in.

Unfortunately he still thinks trans is real since he said that the Trans Athlete has his respect and that to him, he's a woman (eugh...) but it's a small start I guess lol.

[–]VioletRemi 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You can remind them that 88% TiM still have penises. And that any man, not even TiM can abuse this. And what about their kids? Especilly is schools, when TiM who are not yet taking hormones and have penis will be in one washing room on sports lesson with their girls. Etc.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Yeah I think bringing up children would be a better way to explain why this TIMS should be in women's restrooms and changing rooms should be allowed can lead to discomfort with young girls. I don't really bring up the kids angle as much as I probably should when talking about this.

[–]VioletRemi 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

In my school (many years ago) we had washroom for all girls, where 4-6 girls at time were washing naked or half-naked, it was soviet type ones. And in university there were ones with 4-8 cabins, but cabins were without doors, so you can't see others, unless you go out of one. Nowadays there single washrooms or when not single - all cabins have doors, but not always, in old buildings, some dormitories (ah yeah, and mention female-only dormitories too for uni's) and small cities it is still like that. It would be really embarasing and uncomfortable if there was boy of our age (and obv even if they are on puberty blockers, their body looks 100% male and completely functional).

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Right, it just is not a comfortable atmosphere for women and girls.

[–]VioletRemi 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (8 children)

Or safe.

I can imagine that guy will have a boner too, lol.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

bUt lIkE WhATaboUT sTrAiGhT TrAnSWomEn? lol

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

Straight - like the ones that like women? :D

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Oh I was referring to the "Straight" transwomen/TIMs who like men but still use the women's restrooms lol.

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, because TRA are calling "straight" ones that love men, aka gay/hsts ones.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oh I just meant that you know how most of the ones who do harass women in the bathroom (taking pictures, perving, etc.) are usually the AGPs right? Well I can see a TRA or even a woman saying that an HSTS wouldn't perv on a woman in the restroom which would be true but they'd be using that as an example of why TIMs being in bathroom isn't a big deal because of the minority (HSTS) who don't perv on women.

[–]jelliknight 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Look I honestly don't have a problem with a transwoman in a womans bathroom with me.

But:

A) I'm picturing a single, semi-passing transwoman, in a very public space like a mall bathroom. I'm not picturing 6 bikers hanging out by the sinks in a pub bathroom, combing their beards, talking about fucking sluts, while very drunk lone young women have to push past them in order to pee. I'm not picturing two creepy fellas with pedophile glasses at a highway rest stop, happily inviting me to come in. But they're equally allowed in as long as they momentarily self identify as female. Even I wouldn't put myself in that situation, i'd go home or go somewhere else to find a safer bathroom and that is the problem. Men in women's toilets limits women's access to public spaces.

B) I don't mind the idea of a single TIM because I'm a physically large woman with no history of victimization and who's not afraid to make a scene if the situation calls for it. I don't get to make that choice on behalf of every teen, elder woman, disabled woman, religious woman, timid woman, injured or weak woman, woman with young children, and survivor. If even ONE of them is less likely to use the bathroom because there's a man in it then it's misogynistic. Women's bathrooms exist specifically for vulnerable women to ensure they can access public spaces. If all bathrooms became mixed sex, I'd still use them but there are women who wouldn't or who would use them less. That is the problem. The actual assaults aren't honestly the biggest issue for me, the increased danger of assaults will impact vulnerable women's behavior with a much for far reaching consequence.

C) Bathrooms are a trojan horse. It's also change rooms, dormitories, prisons etc which are a whole other kettle of fish.

D) If me and the woman you're talking to are so comfortable with men then the obvious solution is to write "Mixed sex, All gender" on the men's toilets. Boom. Problem solved. Identity affirmed. She can go in there to piss and show how woke she is while vulnerable women can still be safe. In reality if you did that almost every woman would still choose to use the women only bathroom. Because we are more comfortable with that. And our comfort matters.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Great points, Jelli!

One thing I want to point out, re this:

I don't mind the idea of a single TIM because I'm a physically large woman with no history of victimization and who's not afraid to make a scene if the situation calls for it. I don't get to make that choice on behalf of every teen, elder woman, disabled woman, religious woman, timid woman, injured or weak woman, woman with young children, and survivor. If even ONE of them is less likely to use the bathroom because there's a man in it then it's misogynistic.

What's true of you - and all of us -today is not necessarily what will be the case tomorrow. Many women who were once strong, sturdy, utterly fearless, willing and able to make a scene to defend themselves the way you can at this point in time find that later on down the road of life all this changes due to disease or advanced age. I know so many women who were as you describe yourself but who in time developed health conditions that robbed them of all of it.

I'm such a woman. In my youth, I was strong, athletic, confident and fearless enough that once in the 1980s when a mugger in the NYC subway came at me brandishing a knife I shook my head "no no no" and shouted, "Don't even think about it!" then kicked him in the balls, causing him to fall to the ground writhing in pain. Now decades later I am not only older and weaker and frailer, I'm quite disabled by disease. And I feel quite vulnerable when I venture out, which I don't do much anymore coz even before COVID the world had seemed to become an unsafe and unwelcoming place for a woman like me in my present situation.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just because they are comfortable with this, it does not mean they can decide for other women if TIMs should be allowed or not in the women's bathrooms. Ask them why TIMs don't lobby for a third space if they are worried of being assaulted by other men as they often say. That should solve the safety issue without alienating half the population. Of course, that wouldn't provide them with all the validation they want so much, which is why they are against this solution. It's not enough for them to believe they are women, they want everyone else see them as women, too. This is not different from a religious fanatic forcing their beliefs on everyone else, really.

It's also slippery slope. Once you let a man enter the women's bathrooms you are giving access to it to all men, because any criterion you can think of is unenforceable (how would you know if a man is gay or has undergone genital surgey?, for instance) or they will say is unfair and push you to be more "inclusive". Furthermore, once you accept them in the bathroom, they will push for access to other women-only spaces like changing rooms, shelters, hospital wards, prisons, etc.

Also, maybe, ask these women if they have hear of spy cams, that can be hidden within bathrooms. That is another reason not to let them in our restrooms, in my opinion.

[–]BEB 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hey Biology is Real,

I posted a few things that you might find interesting. One is how the gender lobby worked on Latin America first and the other is an international group for Spanish-speaking feminists fighting gender ideology.

Please let me know if you can't find my posts.

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I saw them, thank you. I posted something in the first one.

[–]No_ 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t have a problem with spiders or raccoons or cockroaches in the toilets either but I’m sure you would disagree.

Some women are okay with spiders in their bathrooms, you’re just a tiny anti-spider minority. The spiders won’t hurt you, they’ll just watch you from the corners and you might find an insect carcass on the sink! They mean you no harm though, they’re just there to live. I

also don’t mind raccoons, they’ll probably just hop in and out once they realize I’m in there.

And I don’t really care about cockroaches, I mean they’re kind of gross sure but all I’m in the toilets for is for a quick pee, in and out!

[–]endless_assfluff 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Late to the party (sorry!) but wanted to throw my two cents in. I talk about it like a boundary issue. The mean ol' nasty TERFs think that if someone doesn't want to see genitals of the opposite sex in an environment where genitals may be exposed, this is a totally reasonable sexual boundary to have. TRAs say that having this boundary is unacceptable. If someone doesn't want to see the opposite genitals, too bad so sad, because the existence of a single-sex space would be exclusionary.

You could also lead with this: don't they call the women who don't want to pee in a mixed-sex bathroom TERFs? Don't they call TERFs dangerous? So then wouldn't having single-sex and gender-neutral bathrooms work better, since those nasty TERFs would use the single-sex bathroom and leave them alone?

This makes it clear that TRAs are more concerned with stomping over women's sexual boundaries than making sure TiMs and TiFs have a comfortable peeing experience. There are some people who are okay in mixed-sex bathrooms and some who aren't. There is an obvious solution that will make both groups comfortable---offer both single-sex and gender-neutral bathrooms---but that's not the one they're promoting. Instead, they're promoting a system where if a woman is uncomfortable because someone's exposing his penis in the bathroom/locker room, etc., she has no recourse and nowhere to go.

I don't think they've realized either that brushing off assaults in restrooms is basically accusing women of making up stories about sexual assault to get men in trouble.

[–]macaron 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ugh, I hate these types. Willing to throw other women and girls under the bus for their own woke brownie points. Aren't thinking of anyone but themselves.

Ask them if they would want their daughter or niece, etc, in a changing room with a 'person' who has an erect penis.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah another person mentioned how if you bring kids up, that seems to be the thing that makes people reconsider lol.

[–]arcticbasket 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's great. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But just because they are okay with it doesn't mean they should expect all women to be okay with it.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Right but I think it gets awkward when you're outnumbered by women who think that TIMS have the right to be the women's restroom. Like I remember in the year when I hit my peak trans, I remember asking my female coworkers at work about how they felt about TIMs using the women's restroom and they said they didn't mind (It was all 3 of them). lol Of course at the time, I didn't think about going further and asking them that if they had daughters, would they feel safe knowing there's a Tim in there with them though I feel like they probably would just say they wouldn't mind

[–]arcticbasket 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The question is: do they really think that TIMs have the right to go in the women's restroom, or do they just say that because they're afraid of what people will think of them?

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I REALLY feel it's the latter. I'm more than certain that deep down a lot more women don't want TIMs in their restrooms but because women are expected to put others before themselves and any source of non-compliance results in them getting harassed and demeaned (Look at JK Rowling, Magdalen Berns, Posie Parker, etc), they feel that they need to keep quiet about their true feelings. I think it's only when you bring children into it do some of them budge a bit.

[–]Wandering_Idiot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So I'm one of the women who doesn't care about restrooms, I just care about changing rooms were full nudity is expected, prisons, women's sports ect. The big issue I have with simply denying Trans-women from the ladies restrooms is that every issue is less of a Trans-women issue and more of a why-do-we-accept-this-as-okay issue. In the US the restroom situation is horrible. We need to move away from the whole stall door with a one in gap in the door and make more privet closet like rooms like they have in Europe. I've had doors so poorly attached they sort of swung open on their own, I've had the whole missing the lock cover so you have a hole in the door to peep though, I had a toddler try to crawl under the stall door who I kicked in the head. I would be okay with unisex restrooms that just addressed the privacy issue rather than just gender. And this would also be a benefit to men as well. I have some gay couple friends who had a hard time with their baby because they don't normally have diaper changing station in the men's room.

What I'm getting at is I've had plenty of creepy women staring at me taking a piss, can we address that first?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have some gay couple friends who had a hard time with their baby because they don't normally have diaper changing station in the men's room.

This has been an issue since baby changing stations were first introduced, and it affects all men with children, or who care for children, not just gay ones. But I think the solution to that specific problem is to put baby changing stations in men's rooms too. Also, if this is such a big concern for men, and gay men in particular, it seems odd that they are not they campaigning for changing stations for all. Instead, all the gay rights orgs with their tons of money are championing trans, and trying to dismantle women's rights.

In the US the restroom situation is horrible. We need to move away from the whole stall door with a one in gap in the door and make more privet closet like rooms like they have in Europe.

Yes, perhaps. But whilst having all the toilets enclosed rooms with floor-to-ceiling walls and doors and no gaps would provide more privacy, it also might be less safe, especially in a mixed-sex setup. Too easy to push someone into such a room and abuse them without anyone knowing. Too easy for guys to place spy cams. Too easy for males using such toilets to use them for a wank - which guys already do way too often. Too easy for someone to pass out on the toilet and no one else to notice that she or he has fallen to the floor.

Also, in the US private, single occupancy toilets tend to be a magnet for drug users, who often hog them or take them over entirely. So what happens then is that the authorities or owners of facilities end up closing those sorts of toilets entirely, so that no one can access them.

A couple of years ago in London I got stuck in the kind of loo you describe coz the lock was defective and I couldn't get out. It was an accessible loo with a call button, but the button didn't work either. The door was so thick and heavy no one could hear my shouts. Thank god for cell phones, though it was more than an hour before I finally got through to the HQ of the the establishment to tell them I was stuck - and by then I was almost out of battery.

The other issue with the mixed-sex toilets is, as someone upthread mentioned, that males tend to pee all over the seats and the floors. Which means girls and women not only have to step in male urine, we'd have to clean off the toilet seat each time we need to use it. Since a lot of women hover and spray, I know we often have to do that already - but this would just make a bad situation worse.

[–]Wandering_Idiot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've been in living and work situations with all biological women and the amount of piss and blood that ends up on the seat makes me think it's a human-raised-by-wolves thing not a biological sex thing.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, that's certainly a factor. There are people of both sexes with gross habits coz of poor upbringing.

Still, making toilet facilities mixed sex will insure that girls & women have to deal with more mess than before. Coz even well-mannered males who mean well often have poor aim when they pee. This might be coz they are very young, or they are advanced in years and have shaky hands and diminished eyesight. Or it might be coz they are drunk or stoned or otherwise effed up.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't disagree that a third option (Gender neutral bathroom) would be a good compromise for both the women who want to keep their space and these TIMs who are so paranoid of using the men's restroom (even though I truly believe they just want to be validated as women and couldn't care less about safety).

[–]not_mean_enough 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm all against TIMs in women's changing rooms, prisons or hospital wards, but I don't really get why toilets are considered such a big deal. It's not like you're taking off your knickers in front of other women in there: you're in a stall where no one can go or see inside. Mixed-sex toilets seem more like an issue for men: while women are doing their business behind their closed doors, men are standing with their willies out at the urinals and anyone who enters the room can take a peek.

Of course, assault are more likely anywhere you let men in, because they commit the majority of assaults. But how is a bathroom making women more vulnerable than any other public place? It gives you an opportunity to lock yourself up away from your attacker, which you don't have e.g. in the street, on a bus or in a lift. I think we should stop talking about bathrooms so much and concentrate on places where women are actually more vulnerable than in other public spaces.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't really get why toilets are considered such a big deal. It's not like you're taking off your knickers in front of other women in there: you're in a stall where no one can go or see inside.

I think it's more about the principle. To get the obvious one out though, some trans-identified men are predators and bathrooms don't usually have surveillance camera in them and it just can go very bad for vulnerable women and little girls but that's more of an extreme case I'm sure. The other one that is more principle, a lot of people rightfully think that first it'll be the bathrooms and then it'll be other women only spaces.

I think we should stop talking about bathrooms so much and concentrate on places where women are actually more vulnerable than in other public spaces.

I agree that talking about other spaces would probably be better than the bathroom thing like women's prisons and shelters.