New poll: 59% of US men support a ban on TiMs in women's sports, but only 46% of women support banning TiMs. Frankly, I'm sick of women who won't stand up for other women.

submitted by BEB from politico.com

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[–]BEB[S] 35 insightful - 1 fun35 insightful - 0 fun36 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

As someone who remembers before Title IX, I feel overwhelming irritation at ANYONE who wants to give women's sports over to men.

But I'm especially irritated at women who want to give up our sports, because women know that we can't compete with men in most sports - it's like WTF - how much do you hate yourself and other women?

And what gives you the right to give up MY right to fair athletic competition?

[–]DR373737 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think most women are just extremely ignorant to consequences of this attack on language and the impact it has on laws. It took me a lock down and year of sifting through all of the dogmatic rhetoric to understand what was actually happening. JK Rowling and her essay made me look up and notice that this was an actually truly terrifying issue. However, prior to that I didn't even know how far this issue went.

[–]BEB[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So true.

So many of us, especially those of us who fought for gay rights, just think we're vaguely supporting LGBT-whatever without realizing that this isn't the gay rights movement of old and in fact former gay rights organizations are actively working against LGB rights, especially LGB children.

Then you start digging into what's really happening and you go down the deepest rabbit hole of your life.

[–]jet199 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Kindness and agreeability, not even once.

[–]Greykittymomma 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes self hating women are at the top of my shit list, they should know better.

[–]Nosce_te_ipsum 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I might be wrong, but I think that one factor that contributes to men being more accepting of the reality that they have a physical advantage over women in most sports, is that a lot of them pride themselves in it. I've stumbled upon quite a few guys who make fun of the idea of males in female sports, but not because they actually care about female sports, but because they take pride in knowing they can "wipe the floor" with us, as one of them put it.

And, as GConly said, younger women are the ones who tend to be more supportive of TIMs in women's sports. I suspect this might be happening because third wave feminism has tried to erase every difference between men and women, in an attempt to "empower" women or instill more confidence in them. I remember being a teenage girl and furiously refusing to accept that most men have a strength advantage over most women. It seemed horribly unfair (it still feels that way to me now, after coming to terms with reality).

Other factors that could contribute to young women being in favor of this is that they are more invested in being seen as "good people" who wouldn't deny others their "rights", and also, that a lot of them don't actually play sports, so they don't understand the implications.

[–]BEB[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are being brainwashed from pre-school on. Time to find out what our kids are being taught and band with other parents to stop it if we don't like it.

[–]usehername 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Controlling for other factors (such as size), men only beat women in explosive muscle power. Women have more endurance, and need less rest between sets (when weightlifting). Women's training is hindered by attempts to force them to train like men. The reason that women have smaller skeletons is that they hit puberty earlier than men. Near the end of puberty (I'm talking about the end of development, technically people are fertile before this), males and females both get a surge of estrogen which strengthens the bones and ends the growth of the skeleton. Obesity is more prevalent in females, which can contribute to hitting an early puberty. Sexual abuse also causes early puberty. I also think it's possible that just being sexualized from basically infancy also plays a role, even if a girl is not sexually abused by another person. The fact that estrogen is not filtered out of our water (basically, women on birth control pee it into the water system and we drink it) also plays a role. Women are also discouraged from pursuing athletics and even from playing in a way that they would get any exercise from a young age. Of course, sex-segregated sports are very important, but I just thought I'd tell you this because I felt better (and in some ways, angrier) when I learned it. It's not that women are naturally small and weak, we have been made that way by our environment.

[–]Nosce_te_ipsum 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Those are some good points, some of which I have never heard or considered before. I especially agree that discouraging girls from being as active as boys plays a role in reducing our "raw power", especially since we tend to be the most affected by that message during puberty, when most physical development and growth happens. But I think it also takes a toll on us mentally, because when we become disconnected from what our bodies can do, we might start believing we are much weaker than we actually are, and this feeds into a cycle. Granted, modern life doesn't allow many of us to exercise or be as active as we should be.

One of my grandmothers used to work the fields and do a lot of physical labor in her youth. She was a tiny woman, almost a head smaller than me, and I'm around average size for women in my country. But I've seen her do things that require an impressive amount of physical strength and endurance. And there were bigger and younger women than her, who were not able to pull any of that off, primarily because of a more sedentary lifestyle.

The explosive muscle power you mentioned is a real inborn advantage that men have over us, but it is nice to remember that we're not as weak and helpless as we might think. And that we also have our own physical advantages (than can even give us an edge on men in some sports, which would further justify segregation).

Thanks for the comment!

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No problem. Keep your head up.

[–]Archie 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just to nitpick, the oestrogen in water from birth control thing is originally a conservative christian talking point.

Most oestrogen in water come from agriculture. 90% from animal manure, specifically. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208125813.htm

[–]usehername 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Interesting! A lot of environmental problems would be solved by stopping our reliance on farmed animals.

[–]dreamgerms 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Great points!!! I don’t think it’s even accurate to frame us as “weaker”; our bodies are just different. There are physical advantages and disadvantages to both sexes, and pitting them against one another is just simply unfair and not really sportsmanlike. There is a reason we have things like weight classes in boxing and other sports – because it wouldn’t be entertaining or interesting at all to watch a physically larger man just pummel a smaller one. It’s about a fair fight. Segregating sports by sex isn’t ceding that men are better and stronger than women, but rather acknowledging biological differences.

But of course, recognizing biological differences is now a hate crime and punishable by societal banishment, so none of that really matters anymore.

[–]GConly 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

I think there's probably a strong age divide in the women. I see all the women need to train harder crap from college girls, not older women.

We need to persuade the frat boys it will be a laugh to mob girls athletics next fall semester. That should kill it in one season.

[–]WildApples 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It is not just younger women. I was just speaking to a woman in her 60s who told me that wanting to save female sports is a right-wing (and therefore bad) talking point. And she spent years working at a women's support organization and considers herself a supporter of women's rights, so I definitely did not expect that from her. The mainstream media is brainwashing progressive people into being against women's rights by making it seem like the only people who are for women's rights are conservative extremists.

I think that a lot of older people are also overcompensating for possibly having been slow to accept gay rights; now they accept whatever BS politics is attached to the LGB cause without question so they can feel they are on the right side of the civil rights movement this time.

[–]BEB[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You are so right on media brainwashing people to think that those who want to save women's sports are Rightwing - even the linked article is called something like "most American's agree with TRUMP's position on transgenders in sports" as if agreeing with Trump on ONE THING makes us irrational or KKK members.

[–]emptiedriver 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

yep, there was an article on NPR's FB the other day that made it sound like being against the "Equality act" was something that conservative Religious organizations had taken it upon themselves to do, and that the only reason Republicans were voting against it was to calm down orthodox jews and crazy christians.

The entire comment section was people shaking their heads about the separation of church and state, a few comments about "just leave people alone", but almost nothing recognizing the real issues at stake. And when it was brought up, people were clueless about facts (believing trans women have no advantage after transitioning, can't compete until they've been transitioned at least a year, etc)

[–]BEB[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Because of the US media painting opposition to the Equality Act as a religious issue, most people have no idea that the Equality Act allows ANY man or any GROUP of men to access sex-segregated spaces where women and often children, are naked or otherwise vulnerable.

The US media has a lot to answer for; NPR, Democracy Now!, CNN, MSNBC especially because "Progressives" who don't have time to study the issues closely, take them at their word.

[–]aloris342 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with you that people seem completely clueless about transwomen maintaining an advantage after transition. I think that the low profile of accurate statistics about male and female features is a problem.

[–]jet199 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tribal politics is disgusting no matter what side you are on.

Being willing to throw your fellow humans under the bus because it's related to anyone's talking point is psychopathic.

People matter.

[–]BEB[S] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It makes me incandescent with rage that younger women have been brainwashed to self-sabotage. I think that feminism got too strong, so lib fem or 3rd Wave or whatever it's called, was put into universities by The Powers That Be to send women back into the kitchen.

[–]RiverSong 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Reading your thought about persuading frat boys ... my sister and I always joke that someone should convince Usain Bolt to come back for one season and win some more titles as a woman. I'd pay to see the faces around the world watching that go down.

[–]BEB[S] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Or Trump to id as female for his next run and claim that he'll be the first female US president. That would "own the libs" and they'd deserve it.

[–]EvaWumben 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This right here. I can't think of any woman over about 45 who wouldn't be called a T online for simply expressing what USED to be extremely normal views.

[–]censorshipment 13 insightful - 7 fun13 insightful - 6 fun14 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

We need state polls with separate stats for race because I'm sure here in the Southeast, black Democrats support the bans. There's a 2002 movie called Juwanna Mann that black people reference when talking about TiMs in women's space.

Trailer: https://youtu.be/gFE4Vxoi6OQ

[–]our_team_is_winning 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I remember Juwanna Mann! I bet that film is on the "problematic" list now.

Imagine if they ever let black people who don't agree with Woke, Inc. be heard.

[–]PassionateIntensity 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can't believe the numbers are that low. How pathetic. Though, what was the exact question I wonder? (they do love to cheat/lie).

[–]BEB[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah - I'll take bets that the poll questions were written in a way that ended up making it seem as if approval for TiMs in women sports is much higher than it actually is. Pollsters have all sorts of tricks they use to get their desired results.

[–]SharpTomorrow 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

because being called "transphobic" for a man is completely fine. Women are the ones who fear the most of being labelled "transphobic" and the social stigma. Go see a gay dude and tell him that "transmen are men", they will laugh at your face.

[–]akkordeonplayer 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t think a lot of women realize that there are men who haven’t gone through any semblance of HRT/SRS who want to ID as women.

[–]WildApples 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Seriously. I think they are picturing Blaire Whites on girls' team, not Alok Vaid-Menons.

[–]persistentlywoman 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

they think they ARE supporting other women.

being treated like an enemy that didn't give a fuck about women kept me from peaking earlier.

[–]BEB[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I am relatively old. In my bubble, I thought things were going swimmingly for US women relative to what we had in my youth, until I woke up (thanks, Bruce Jenner!) and the house was on fire.

I had no idea there was a thing called Lib Feminism, or Third Wave feminism, or Gender Studies, or Queer Theory - it was all news to me, and is still news to many of my similar-aged friends.

But when I did realize that the hard, hard work of the 2nd Wave feminists who I remember well, was being undone by these other women who called themselves "feminists" - when I myself was attacked by young "feminists" for espousing the basic tenets of feminism - I was like, "Listen young lady, you don't get to give back the rights my mother, my grandmother, my great-grandmother and millions of women throughout the ages fought and sacrificed for."

And that's where I stand today. I understand the "folly of youth" - I did more than my share of stupid things and still do, but any of these women, of any age, who are bending over backwards to destroy our sex-based rights, our safe-spaces and our sports, are going to get yelled at by me. Traitors.

[–]persistentlywoman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

being angry and resentful towards them is one thing. considering them traitors disregards the specifics of their experience and what lead to the formation of their beliefs. all of which is the same misogyny and sexism which we all try our best to cope with. when there are plenty of women participating in opposing women's rights in myriad ways, the special hostility libfems and radfems cultivate towards each other seems particularly counterproductive and almost designed to stifle any possibility of mutual ground. and the elitism, judgment and mean-spiritedness that both camps engage in towards each other keeps a lot of women like me from wanting to even identify as feminist. why would I want to be a feminist when it seems to mean rejecting or accepting other women based on their perceived moral purity?

I understand the anger and frustration because I feel it too. I left 'queer' spaces because I was tired of seeing other women get slammed for everything and nothing. I hoped these spaces would have more compassion and empathy. instead I am finding the same cruel judgements, like we all forget how fucking hard it is to be a woman once we disagree ideologically. of course you are entitled to feel however you do and I don't discount that as an individually complex experience with a great deal of pain and struggle behind it. but you can't expect women to come here and see themselves being called traitors and handmaidens by women who clearly believe they are superior and expect to gain any ground with them.

[–]BEB[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that the animosity between rad fems and lib fems is counterproductive and depressing as we should be united to fight for women. It is a much better tactic to attempt to persuade the persuadable ones instead of yelling at or disparaging them.

However, I will not tolerate the smarmy lib fems, especially the ones who scream ageist or looks-based insults, or who go along with or participate in TRA verbal or physical attacks. All one has to do to see this kind of handmaiden is look at the protest crowds at rad fem events - there are women hurling vicious abuse and threats of violence at other women, right alongside the TRAs.

I will not tolerate the powerful ones who still call themselves "feminists" yet are dismantling women's rights and safe spaces. They should know better because they themselves remember when US women still lacked some basic civil rights, such as Nancy Pelosi, Kamala Harris, Dianne Feinstein, Liz Warren and Tammy Baldwin.

These women, who know full well what women went through and what 2nd Wave feminists fought for because they themselves lived it, are deliberately and systematically destroying almost everything feminists fought for. I have no hesitation in disparaging them or calling them traitors.

[–]one1won 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

but you can't expect women to come here and see themselves being called traitors and handmaidens by women who clearly believe they are superior and expect to gain any ground with them.

This strikes me as a perception problem.

So, Women who, having more knowledge or experience on an issue, express frustration and criticism = "clearly believe they are superior"?

Sad. Comes across as expecting women to self censor, "just be nice", and always offer "kid glove" treatment for another person's fragility. How about: NO. How about: doing what adults ought to do, take responsibility for your own feelings and insecurities. (What women want men, of all sorts, to do, also!)

[–]WildApples 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You make a good point, but this is not limited to feminists. That kind of purity seeking and vilification is something groups do when they become too insular, and the inherently dehumanizing internet exacerbates the issue by facilitating zealous censorship and ostracism, which causes both the censoring group and the censored group to become more insular and polarized.

[–]EvaWumben 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same here. And that's the abuse they throw out.

[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't understand the women who support the trans dogma blindly either, but to be fair they were not asked whether they agree with banning TiMs from women's sports. You can read the poll results in the document attatched by Politico. Here's the question that was actually asked.

Table POL20:As you may know, Mississippi is moving towards banning transgender athletes from participating on women’s sports teams at the state’s high schools and universities. Based on what you know, do you support or oppose banning transgender athletes from competing on women’s sportsteams?

Notice they are not talking about TiMs, but "transgender" athletes in general.

[–]BEB[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And I'm guessing that half of Americans wouldn't be able to follow that convoluted question long enough to figure out how they actually wanted to answer. I myself had to read it a few times.

[–]lavender_menace 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

based at what you know

Were those people enlightened about the issues and implications before asking that question?

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess they weren't. Or if they were informed, they likely were given TRA propaganda.

[–]Hypothetical_Concept 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I recently saw an argument for transwomen in women’s sports which claimed that the reason we had women’s sports wasn’t for fair competition, since it was “unfair” that better players beat players who were worse. The reason we had women’s sports was so young girls had role models they could look up to. And since there are trans kids who need role models, transwomen should be allowed in women’s sports.

This bizarre bit of rationalization struck me as the sort of thing a Mommy or Daddy might come up with — that competition is bad because feelings get hurt, but sports stars make nice posters to put on walls to admire. No, little Emily won’t be able to win competitions herself, but she can pretend the same way she might pretend to want to be a rock star. The important thing is that everyone’s self-esteem is supported.

Is this more “Mommy thinking” than “Daddy thinking?” I think so. Women are socialized to eschew competition in favor of learning social skills and “just go out and have fun.” Could be a factor contributing to the statistics.

[–]emptiedriver 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I saw something like that the other day too. I don't even understand the argument - what is the role model if not to fight hard in a fair competition? To just be genetically better endowed? I understand one can claim that is what happens in sports but I do not understand how that is a role model. The whole point of good sportsmanship is to do our best to make it fair.

The part that makes it most frustrating for me is how this is not even a topic of debate. It's an automatic "with us or against us" attitude. When I was growing up we had debate teams, we had to play devil's advocate, we had to learn the views of the opposing position, for all sorts of strongly held beliefs - I remember arguing over abortion, gun rights, the death penalty, gay marriage point by point, not dismissing the alternate idea as "bigotry" and looking askance at anyone who would dare! to suggest such a thing... But trans rights have become entirely enshrouded in mystery, everything they want unquestioned, no discussion, no back and forth, even when they are self-contradictory or just ridiculous. So men who identify as women playing on women's sports teams does not even get debated: either you are a right wing nut job or you embrace it.

[–]Hypothetical_Concept 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, it sounds more like they’re talking about a “celebrity” than a role model.

As for the strange attitude regarding debate, I recently came across an essay on that very topic called, appropriately, “No, the Woke Won’t Debate You, Here’s Why.” The author, James Lindsay,, gives his take on what he considers to be the extremely illiberal worldview and mindset of Critical Social Justice Theory — which includes Trans ideology. Advocates avoid debate not because they fear they will lose, but because a refusal to engage in any attempt to persuade someone who disagrees is baked right into the basic premises. He narrows these down to 3 main points.

1.) They think the system is rigged against them. “ Debate and conversation, especially when they rely upon reason, rationality, science, evidence, epistemic adequacy, and other Enlightenment-based tools of persuasion are the very thing they think produced injustice in the world in the first place. Those are not their methods and they reject them. Their methods are, instead, storytelling and counter-storytelling, appealing to emotions and subjectively interpreted lived experience, and problematizing arguments morally, on their moral terms.”

2.) A Metaphysics of Discourses: “ they would see conversation with people who uphold the dominant discourses as profoundly dangerous, not just for themselves, lest they be tempted and lose purity, but for others who will hear it and thus maintain the very power structures they think must be fundamentally dismantled.”

3.) No True Disagreement: “If you disagree, you either have false consciousness or the willful intention to oppress, and so your disagreement isn’t genuine.”

You can find it here: https://newdiscourses.com/2020/07/woke-wont-debate-you-heres-why/

It’s a long essay, but worth reading, I think. I’ve heard that Lindsay misunderstands at least some of the postmodern theories and theorists he criticizes, but it could still be a good description of the pop philosophy that’s undergirding the puzzling way obvious problems like ‘men in women’s sports’ — and TWAW — are so often treated like sacrosanct, non debatable truths.

[–]TulipPoplar 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it is a personality that is more common in women (particularly late boomer women in my experience, but that could just be my age). The type that doesn't like competition in anything because they believe it is unfair to judge someone negatively when they tried. It was usually this type of women who pushed to not keep score in competitions, or made sure to grade assignments in green pen because red is too negative. Winning is just not as important to them as everyone feeling accomplished since everyone tried.

If competition is seen negatively, but exercise is still obviously good it doesn't matter if you win anything as long as you ran around a bit. So a sports star is a role model who exercises, not necessarily a role model who wins competitions.

[–]Doberlady 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

We'll see how they feel when TiMs start taking their daughters' medals and sports scholarships

[–]BEB[S] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Or swing their dicks in their daughter's locker room.

But honestly, ladies, we US feminists need to be out there being vocally against this (any of us who can without suffering) to give other people cover.

[–]milkmender11 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Shouldn't the opinions of actual atheletes be more important? I bet those numbers would be much higher.

[–]BEB[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A lot of young female athletes are being massively gaslit. In the US, they are starting to be indoctrinated into gender ideology before kindergarten.

It's unbelievably cynical and sad that these girls are being told that their achievements, their medals, their scholarships need to be given up so that boys don't cry.

[–]our_team_is_winning 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

— Women: 46% support a ban, 34% oppose

That only adds up to 80%. So 20% gave that "oh gee, I don't know...." way of avoiding the question in case they gave the "wrong" answer.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

— Millennials: 56% support a ban, 28% oppose

That's a surprise. Seems millennials in the US aren't as immersed in the trans cult as it appeared.

[–]purrfect 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree completely. I'm not sure, why women are more easily caught up in nonsensical ideologies, as long as they come with a sheen of virtue, but I tired of it.

[–]Smurfette 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Men are more sex centered. So if you ask them if TWAW the first thing they think of is their peepee. No 100% straight man wants to have sex with a TIM.

[–]pacmanla 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

As a male, this is very true. I've never cared about being called transphobic or bigot, for clearly stating that transwomen are not women. I was not even going to entertain that crazy, delusional, illogical mantra, because I knew this was them trying to coerce their way into people's sex lives. And, men in general (including gay men) were just like, no, they're men. Lol, you are very correct with this assessment.

[–]our_team_is_winning 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

We need more men to speak up. We need some men with large platforms to come out and say this is a men's issue and women shouldn't be suffering for it.

[–]pacmanla 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's sad that women voices that have been pleading & shouting at the unfairness of men opting into "womanhood" isn't enough. This is coming from a male. I went down this trans craziness rabbit hole about a year & a half ago, after a personal encounter about being "transphobic" for not essentially being into other natal males. I had no idea, unfortunately, how trans have just been blatantly bullying lesbians (to a lesser extent gay men as well) into intimacy with them. It really is a movement for sick men's fetishes at this point. It's insane that women talking about their natal bodies is considered taboo & transphobic, but men can define womanhood & the "idea" of femininity. It's so blatant misogynistic at this point, & it's nothing but a men's right issue for mentally ill, deceptive, abusive men.

[–]BEB[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly - In Bizarro World, men get to define what womanhood and femininity are, while women talking about their bodies is now considered transphobic.

And thank you for understanding - we need more men like you to speak out.

[–]BEB[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think if feminists are vocal more men will speak out (and I understand why many women are scared to speak out).

Many men think that women are cool with gender ideology, so are scared to comment on what they feel is a women's issue (men in women's spaces and sports especially)

[–]SharpTomorrow 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We need more men to speak up.

no, we need all feminists themselves to grow a backbone and stop promoting that MRA farce of transgenderism.

[–]jet199 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Here's a range of reasons.

https://youtu.be/bZnlFEUvn7Y

Notice most of these people have zero interest in sport.

Most women in the general population don't care about sport which may be why they are weak in this issue.

[–]BEB[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And that's another thing - in my US primary school, girls had to play sports three times a week and different sports with the seasons. And then many girls continued into high school, especially since playing a sport helped a lot with getting into university.

So we grew up knowing how to play a bunch of sports - do US girls now not have to play sports in school?

[–]pacmanla 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a male, that 59% is way too low.

[–]eddyelric 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How disappointing.

[–]EvaWumben 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Perfectly worded, thank you. These women are SOOO worried about male approval they are throwing us all under the bus.

[–]Britishbulldog 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We’re relying on men (and largely right-wing men) to stand up for women. In short, we’re f—ked

[–]BEB[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In the US, a surprising amount of right wing men have spoken out, and I think that some are genuinely concerned. Whereas most prominent men on the Left have been Male Chauvinist Pigs. And I say that as someone who is mostly "liberal."

[–]supastraight 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

polling is strange...how many people here were asked? I bet they asked only lib fems or they asked Trans who identify as women therefore get to claim themselves as women. Shouldn't take these gender polls seriously anymore since they can just claim to be women.