TRA Argument, need some help (having to do with bathroom)

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

Hey there everyone, so I'm in the middle of another annoying debate with a TRA and after he displayed his racism by equating the struggle us black people had to endure in history before the civil rights movement, he took issue with me saying that men have absolutely no business being in women only spaces. He then said what about fathers of babies who go into the women's restroom to change their baby's diapers.

I admit that this stumped me. I'm not a parent and I don't know any parents but does this really happen? Do fathers of babies just walk into women's bathrooms and change their baby's diapers in there? I could've sworn that the only time this may happen is if the bathroom is a family bathroom no?

Sorry, I'm just confused and could use some feedback on this. Is this really a thing??

EDIT: Here is the comment that he gave me for more context if curious

And black people should sit in the back of the bus, and there should be separate water fountains and waiting rooms? OK, I definitely can see your point about how women might feel threatened about somebody who was born male using a woman's locker room, or rest area, etc. and these changes are not going to happen overnight. Many people fought and died on the front lines for racial equality, so I know that the acceptance of somebody physically born male, identifying as female, or gender neutral isn't going to happen overnight. I am practical that way, but many places are now making accommodations for those who identify as either women, trans gender, trans neutral, etc. You may not like it, but a change is coming, and sooner than you think. Incidentally what do you think and how do you feel about fathers of new born babies using the women's room to change their baby's diapers? Only women's rest rooms have diaper changing stations, and areas, but men's rest rooms do not. As I said, a change is coming weather you like it or not. Hold any view you like, but eventually, you'll have to deal with the fact that these things ARE going to happen, or you're going to be left behind as the world progresses, and moves forward. But as I said, it won't be overnight. How about we just agree to disagree, and move on?

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[–]soundsituation 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do fathers of babies just walk into women's bathrooms and change their baby's diapers in there? I could've sworn that the only time this may happen is if the bathroom is a family bathroom no?

Just like u/lefterfield, I have never once seen this. I've never even heard of it happening. So I think it's a pretty unlikely hypothetical.

But I also think it's a stupid hypothetical. The main issue with self-ID is that it's impossible to know (until it's too late) which men just want to pee and which men want to take advantage of women in a vulnerable space. If a man brings a baby in to use the changing station, however, it's obvious what his purpose is for being there.

This guy's racial segregation analogy is even more idiotic, and I suspect disingenuous as well.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for the explanation and I agree, it's pretty clear that if you see a man bringing in a baby with him and it's an obvious baby and not some toy used as a prop (lol), it's clear he just wants to do his due diligence and care for his child and be in and out. I have not come across any incidents of a man using a baby or small child as a prop to perv and be a creep towards women so it's generally okay.

The racial thing, don't even get me started. These people just can't hold in the opportunity to show their racism when it comes to this can't they?

[–]soundsituation 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The racial thing, don't even get me started. These people just can't hold in the opportunity to show their racism when it comes to this can't they?

I know they want it to be some clever gotcha moment, but it ends up demonstrating that they don't understand why racial segregation is unjust, either because they hold racist beliefs or because they're amoral virtue signalers who don't actually care about which policies create the most safety, dignity and fairness for everyone.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

what do you think and how do you feel about fathers of new born babies using the women's room to change their baby's diapers? Only women's rest rooms have diaper changing stations, and areas, but men's rest rooms do not.

This person doesn't know anything about women's restroom facilities, diaper changing stations, or the customs around them.

Fold-down diaper changing stations like the now-commonplace plastic Koala brand only were invented in 1986. In the US and Canada, by the mid-late 90s they had become standard in all-access family restrooms, disabled toilets and men's rooms in the types of establishments frequented by families with young kids, such as supermarkets, popular big box stores, shopping malls, chain fast food restaurants, highway/motorway rest plazas, parks and beaches, libraries, airports, movie theaters, community centers, family-oriented recreational and leisure facilities, and so on. But they're typically not found in places where people don't customarily take little kids such as fancier restaurants with table service and no kids' menus, bars, night clubs and gyms/health clubs catering to adults and which don't provide child care services to allow adults to work out.

This guy's suggestion that only "new born babies" need diapering also shows he know nothing about young children.

FWIW, I know lots of dads who have done their fair share of diapering and childcare, including taking their infants and toddlers out and about on their own, but I've never heard of men going into women's rooms to change their kids' diapers. I've never witnessed this or heard about it ever happening from any women or other moms either. In fact, this thread is the first time I've heard that this might be a thing.

Most parents and carers of either sex carry diaper bags with changing mats in them so we/they can change diapers wherever when the need arises. Most people use whatever surface is at hand - the floor or ground, a bench, a chair - or the child's pram or stroller/push chair. It's not like diaper changing stations are absolutely essential. After all, there were lots of babies and diaper-wearing kids around long before such stations were invented. My hunch is, the majority of kids' diapers changed outside the home are changed in ad hoc circumstances without the luxury of a restroom or changing station.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Right exactly. I've read from some other women that they have seen men changing baby's diapers in women's restrooms but ti's almost entirely rare, especially since it's just like you said, most places that receive lots of business have family restrooms anyway so this dude was just pulling things out of his butt to be honest.

[–]xandit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’ve seen baby changing stations in plenty of larger men’s rooms, there’s probably a lot more now. I don’t think most men would feel comfortable going in the women’s room, and wouldmake due with another surface.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right exactly. Unless it was absolutely a last resort, I'm more than sure these fathers would make due with what they have.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Also, depending on the child's size, a diaper can be changed by laying a kid in your lap/across your thighs at an angle - and since dads are generally bigger than moms, this is often easier for men to do than for women. Moreover, once children can stand, whether on their own by bracing themselves with their hands on something, diapers can be changed when they're on their feet, so no need to lay them down flat on their backs. Babies stand much earlier than many people unfamiliar with babies realize. https://www.verywellfamily.com/when-should-a-baby-stand-2634693

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

[–]lefterfield 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do fathers of babies just walk into women's bathrooms and change their baby's diapers in there? I could've sworn that the only time this may happen is if the bathroom is a family bathroom no?

I don't know if it's a thing, but I can say in almost 40 years of life, I have never, anywhere, seen a father do this. They always use the family restrooms. I wouldn't oppose them doing it, though, if they had no other options. And they should have other options! The only time I can remember a male being in the women's restroom(for legitimate reasons) was an elderly couple where the husband was in a wheelchair and quite obviously dependent on the wife. And also a place with no family restrooms.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing and yeah, there really should be more options for men who want to care for their baby. Thankfully where I live, most places do have a family bathroom.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've never, ever seen this happen or even heard of it happen either, and I'm over 65!

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Neither have I. In fact I've never seen any mother or father change their child's diapers in any restrooms, which is a good choice because restrooms aren't very sanitary and there's very little room to do so. I think I did glimpse a mother change her baby's diaper in the back seat of her car and this was parked in front of a large Mcdonalds, with a large restroom, in one of those motorway areas (where there is a petrol station and some fast food places around to cater for travellers that need to stop and rest) on my way to said McDonalds to use the toilet. Parents that are prepared usually have something like a towel or blanket which they put their baby on top of to change the diaper.

[–]Gre 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's a question of context. You can throw TIMs and TIFs out of women's bathrooms because they are for the safety and comfort of women.

If a father needs to change a kid's diapers, and he that is the only viable place, then he should be there, because kids' wellbeing take precedence over adult feelings. And a man taking care of a baby can be assumed to be safe.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you. I looked around some more to get some insight from other women and they pretty much said the same thing so I see that it's okay that this and ONLY this is the exception where a man going into a woman's restroom is okay because it's for the well-being of the child.

So this TRA is just making a nonsensical argument.

[–]Anonimouse 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've heard women complain that they always have to do the changing because that's where the changing table is, but I've always seen one in the disabled toilet as well, especially if there is no family room.

[–]chiobu 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

HE

Is that a male feminist? And yeah, I've only seen family rooms so I'm not sure what was the point he was trying to make, except that it sounded hypothetical. If so, why can't the hypothetical TiF using female restrooms due to sexual deviance be used? At the very least, it's not very hypothetical when sexual assaults by TiF in female restrooms actually happen?

https://www.kxii.com/content/news/Transgender-woman-allegedly-sexually-assaults-teen-in-walmart-505820451.html

https://metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

I would use the point about not being able to choose the colour of your skin but he'd probably counter with how transgenderism is not a choice. I would then say that it's not comparable since SRS is a thing and changing someone's race is not but there were clowns who did the transracial thing, so it might not be a very strong argument.

All in all the fathers in restroom argument by him is a weak one and hyperbole.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah I was thinking more about the father angle and it's a poor argument. I was curious though and looked around to see of cases of fathers using women's bathrooms to change their baby's diapers and the women were saying they didn't have a problem with it and I think the difference between a father using the space and a creepy fetishistic AGP is that the father comes in with a baby and changing supplies which should signal that he's just there to change his baby's diaper and believe me, I know that there can be the possibility of a man using the child as a prop to gain access to female only spaces but thankfully so far I didn't come across any cases of this.

Nonetheless, you're right that it's a weak argument he made on that part. I'm not sure if this guy is a "male feminist" to be honest but I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

The racism definitely annoys me but there's not much I can say on that angle that this pissant won't try to twist so I probably won't even bother addressing it.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I could be wrong, but those changing tables tend to be in a place that's generally situated outside of the stalls, but still within the restrooms (if there are any in the restrooms in the first place), so if he is peeping, he would have to walk a little away and stick his head right into the stall to get a good angle to see the person, or get on the floor and crawl. In Australia, we don't have large gapes between the toilet doors. The only one toilet "peeping" incident I have was from a 6 yr old little girl, I think she was trying to look for a relative because she was calling out for a relative. I still did not like that she tried to look underneath my door.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My argument would be that it's about limiting chances. The chances of someone of the opposite sex being in the bathroom, they're most likely going to perv, it's due to the psychology of curiosity and some people are just perverted, no matter the sex. My other arguments is that I'd much prefer to be in a majority heterosexual women space to change clothes than having mixed sex, as it's safer. This acceptance is my way of compromising with the fact that I'd be undressing myself in a public space in exchange to get into appropriate wear when going or leaving the public pool. About parents, I honestly do not mind if a father takes his daughter to the women's toilets, as long as he hangs around the entrance, if he needs to help his daughter, he can just go into the stall with her.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right, it's about getting rid of the risk of perverted men taking advantage of self-id and if you ban all men, there's just no chance of that happening so everyone wins in the end. And agreed on the father.