all 8 comments

[–]GizortnikKiA Old Guard 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So much of this is completely silly.

Does anyone truly believe that blacks could ever integrate into these cultures?

Yes. All of them. Any of them. First: can blacks integrate into any culture that isn't there own? Yes: we've seen this in Islamic Culture, Jewish Culture, American Culture, and even Asian cultures. You, yourself, attempted to completely dismiss this fact when you decided that you didn't want to hear about "your super-cool and smart black coworker."

There are both individual and societal examples of African populations integrating into a wide array of cultures, societies, traditions, etc. The very fact that you assumed someone would mention a successful co-worker of there's who successfully integrated is evidence that you understand this, and don't want to hear it because it defeats the argument right out of the box.

While I don't have any "peer reviewed research" to prove this I do have life experience, observable statistics, repeatable and predictable patterns, and no contradictory evidence.

You go on, moments later, to dismiss other people's life experience working with blacks. You cite statistics, but don't seem to understand the relationship between peer reviewed research and statistics. When you say "repeatable and predictable pattern", what you mean are shitty self-affirmations of a narrative. The moment you tell yourself that there is NO contradictory evidence that you've seen, it means that you've never actually been willing to see any challenges to your ideas. There's always evidence that is potentially contradictory in any argument.

Meaning, could they ever be satisfied with their outcomes in the absence of special treatment, social justice, etc.

Special Treatment and social justice are different things. Your complaint is about preferential racial treatment. Could blacks go on with out it. Yes, most on Earth live without it. Not every black person is upper-middle class Mizzou senior who has a millionaire daddy. Preferential Racial treatment is not the norm for individuals.

It can, however, be the norm for societies especially when such sectarianism is promoted as a good thing. This is why launching a move towards racialism in a society is absolutely poisonous. As with the Czechs and Germans prior to WW2, the progressive intellectual pursuit of racialism promoted grievance and demands of collective retribution, reward, and compensation in societies that would go on to spiral as new grievances were created by each act of 'racial justice' until portions of Czechoslovakia had been depopulated as Germans were forced out after Czechs had been mauled in WW2. Racialism doesn't ever help a society, it spirals it out of control into violence and sectarianism.

When people are in this spiral of sectarianism, there are always idiots clamoring that they need special compensation and retribution in retaliation to protect themselves, and that more racialism and sectarianism is the only way things will work. It always fails.

So, you look at black populations across the world. In America, they were exposed to racialism since many were imported. Racialism was strongly promoted in the US, and blacks tended to collectivize in order to secure themselves from multiple efforts to be purged or fucking exterminated. Which, I'll have to get back to since you made a completely historically ignorant comment about Segregation. Meanwhile in Africa, Blacks were collectivized along their specific religious and ethnic lines, which has lead to centuries of violence and authoritarianism. Elsewhere in the world where blacks weren't aggressively racialized (either by an establishment or in a response to one), like in South America, integration has been completely normal. Racial tensions is not anywhere near as significant as it is in other places.

The most peaceful relations between blacks and whites in America occurred during segregation, and I don't believe that will ever change.

This tells me that you know literally less than nothing about the Segregationist era, and you've never spoken to anyone who was alive prior to 1964. Blacks in America invented the words "Sun Down Towns" because these were predominantly white towns in America that were published in Almanacs (made specifically for blacks traveling across the US), so that they could avoid being wantonly murdered for simply stepping into the wrong fucking neighborhood. Ethnic political party boss systems in American cities meant that there were zealous ethnic and religious divisions in cities and people were not allowed to go to different places in different cities if you weren't part of the right demographic. Even in socially segregated places in the North, the idea of racial mixing (as in different races simply congregating with one another) was considered alarming and suspicious. There was an ever present threat of communal violence or defamation in a response to two people being friends. There is a reason Rock and Roll Music was considered nearly revolutionary in the mid 20th century, and the fact that the music and fans were effectively integrated (much to their own surprise) had a major portion to do with that.

That is to say absolutely nothing about racial tensions in the south supported by state-sponsored terrorism, and racial tensions in the north supported by ethnically based mafias and the violence that goes along with that.

You can't claim that there were peaceful relations in an era of history which is marred by extreme suspicion, race riots at the very hint of misconduct, lynchings, assassinations, murder, the deployment of US aircraft against civilians, and so fucking much crazy shit more.

Anyone who was alive to live through the mid 20th century is fully aware that racial tensions are still better now than they were at any point prior to 1970. When was the last time you saw the local Union intentionally start a race riot to beat the hell out of Chinese people to prevent Irish people from losing jobs? You haven't because it stopped happening. Ethnic hatred against eastern Europeans has decreased over the decades. The same things have progressed with black-white race relations.

...

So, can blacks integrate into European culture. Yes. They have. Repeatedly. And at different times and places. There are also instances when blacks who (as Thomas Sowell puts it) who embraced Redneck & Cracker culture, migrated to new locations, and agitated the local populations to cause racial tensions to increase. The only solution to that is NOT to drive populations into fucking racialized hives as we've already done in the past (which lead to extreme tension and significant amounts of collective violence and disunity). It is to allow integration to happen naturally through the transmission of human capital by free exchange and interaction.

[–]Ozerh 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It is to allow integration to happen naturally through the transmission of human capital by free exchange and interaction.

A well reasoned reply but the very last sentence is probably the most important since it can be applied to literally anything regarding culture. Give it time and people will eventually come along, force it and you'll get a violent reaction.

[–]GizortnikKiA Old Guard 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed. I don't object to the right of association. You can't force people to live together. They have to be allowed to live together and figure out how to live around each other. This can only be done one person at a time through patient and voluntary interaction.

Forcing people to live together will always cause problems without some sort of over-arching, mandatory, cultural demands. Everyone can get along in a barraks because everyone is coerced into suppressing individual rights, required to accept a homogenous code of conduct, and accepts that their position is purely temporary. What actually belongs to them is a forcibly isolated out. In a normal human society, this can't be done. People have to feel each other out.

What the alt-right don't understand is that integration is completely natural for most populations, and is even an aspect of evolutionary biology. There is a point to the argument that diversity is a strength... primarily in genetic diversity as a resistance to disease. Total dissimilarity is what is not a strength. Integration just isn't initially the norm, but over time it happens if no one is trying to draw up boundaries and coerce others. Populations will slowly integrate, and individual people will self-segregate and self-integrate as personally needed. That's a good thing, leave the humans alone, they'll figure it out.

[–]MaskedCowardKiA Old Guard[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

wow

[–]APDSmithKiA Old Guard 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Dude, my mother-in-law is an OBE and runs a hospital. She's more "integrated into the culture" than I am.

Also, do you not feel it is a flare-lit tip off that you're asking to discuss the likely success of integration ... while requiring the discussion to quietly not mention any success stories? It could just be really poor phrasing but it comes across like a very agenda-driven post.

[–]MaskedCowardKiA Old Guard[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Also, do you not feel it is a flare-lit tip off that you're asking to discuss the likely success of integration ... while requiring the discussion to quietly not mention any success stories? It could just be really poor phrasing but it comes across like a very agenda-driven post.

Not that I have the power to do so, but I'm not trying to control anything about the discussion. I would never do it even if I could. I was just saying, a response of "yeah because my coworkerino is awesome and colored" doesn't address a societal question. But sure, take it anywhere you like.

I've openly admitted my general distaste for blacks, so there's no hidden agenda.

[–]APDSmithKiA Old Guard 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

OK, I'll admit, I'm not entirely sure how to address this, then. Your request appears to be to discuss society without discussing people.

Are we just lining up stereotypes, then? I can't see that being particularly productive, but I can't see where else one would be able to take this.

I'm also somewhat confused by "blacks" as a group ... are you of the opinion that white people are equally interchangeable? That there's no difference between, say, an American and a Canadian? Between the Scottish and the English? Between the English and the French? Or is this sort of faceless anonymity something you reserve for black people?

[–]GizortnikKiA Old Guard 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's a huge problem authoritarians and intellectuals have. They want to control the system, but don't accept that the system is emergent from individual chaos. They never talk about all people because talking about what Sowell calls "inter-temporal abstractions" allows them to make the sweeping generalizations they need to paint a narrative.

Racism is an intellectual pursuit.