What is up with "lesbians" who meet their exception?

submitted by Astrid2448 from self.Lesbians

I believe that this genuinely happens on occasion. Maybe there are a handful of women who genuinely have never felt attracted to a single man in their life and suddenly meet the one guy who is their type. But it seems like there are A LOT of women who claim this is what happened to them, to where I don't really believe it.

If you like women EXCLUSIVELY, isn't there a fundamental physical incompatibility? Even if you thought some guy had a nice personality, his body would make it impossible for it to work. You'd be like "Darn, this person has everything I'm looking for, but they're a man. If only they were a woman."

To me it sounds like saying you fell in love with a 14 year old because you "liked their personality" and looked past their age, and then saying you really aren't a pedo. Like... sure, you totally slept with this 14 year old because of their personality. Sure, you totally looked past it when you asked this 14 year old to marry you. While anyone who wasn't a pedo would've been immediately put off by their body, because their fundamental attraction doesn't include that.

I'm very suspicious that a lot of these women did find men attractive, but kept it under wraps until they ended up in a serious relationship with one. Hell, I've even confirmed this a lot of times by going to the Reddit accounts of "lesbians" who say they fell in love with a man and finding... you guessed it... pages and pages of them drooling over male actors, talking about how sometimes they find men attractive, saying sexuality is fluid, or even sleeping with men years prior to when they "discovered their exception". It's almost like they WANT to be a lesbian more than they actually are one, which is really strange to me as someone who thinks being a lesbian is often a pain.

Thoughts?

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[–]Ricky_Ticky 53 insightful - 2 fun53 insightful - 1 fun54 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I have many straight women friends who call themselves bisexuals even though their only bi experience was kissing a few girls at parties. What they really mean when saying "I am bi" is that they are "open-minded, modern and tolerant".

I also have bi friends who are fascinated by how intrigued people look at them when they say they are "lesbians". They like the idea of belonging to such a hidden, mysterious and unavailable to men group.

As a result lesbians are not being taken seriously and people think "well if a guy says he is gay it's irreversible but for a girl things can change". If I explain it to my straight/bi friends they are surprised big time, they were not aware of it and they stop throwing "lesbian" and "bi" labels where they do not belong. So I guess we have to educate, nobody is going to understand our struggles if we do not explain them.

Once "women with exceptions" understand that wanting to have it both ways actually hurt real lesbians, they are fine calling themselves just bisexuals

[–]Astrid2448[S] 34 insightful - 2 fun34 insightful - 1 fun35 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

I think you really hit the nail on the head. You're right, it's much more about image than reality. Unlike you, though, I've found that a lot of these girls aren't interested in hearing about whether this hurts other people. They get enraged if you even suggest anything other than them being valid.

[–]oofreesouloo 27 insightful - 2 fun27 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

THIS THIS THIS. Usually people who do this can't care less. They're really self absorbed and I despise these bisexual women. I've tried explaining this to a bisexual women who calls herself 'lesbian' she got REALLY defensive and couldn't care sh*t about my concerns lmao.

[–]Ricky_Ticky 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Some women are very selfish, nothing we can do about it. But maybe some day they'll grow up.

It's also human to think how you feel is how everybody feels. Many lesbians share a similar story - when they noticed they like girls, they thought all women are like that. It's just the society that forces women to marry men but in fact all women like women.

So probably "lesbians with exceptions" think that every lesbian prefers girls but develops feelings for men as a "regular exception". And that is what being a lesbian is like.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've heard them say that lots of lesbians must like men instead of accepting that they just aren't a lesbian. But that is a very homophobic thing to do. I would care less about this if they werent doing this in such large numbers and throwing actual lesbians out for even questioning it.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I think they don’t want to lose their whole community because they were dishonest about something, or genuinely didn’t think they would be into males that are not “celebrities,” it still sucks for lesbians because we are considered fictional even more every time a woman finds her dick, lol. But I think they probably feel ashamed so just double down.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 21 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

But bi women are welcome in almost all lesbian communities. Hell, they are even the majority in most cases.

[–][deleted] 25 insightful - 2 fun25 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

They are, but lots of bi women are the type that are not welcome. Mostly the ones that include their straight boyfriends in everything and bring him to gay events. Lol. This used to be the main problem lesbians and bisexuals fought over. In those simple days. I mean gay events specifically. How many lesbians feel like seeing places filled with heterosexual pairings? Our venues are small enough. Lol. My friend brought her boyfriend and he was FILMIMG. Lololol. So there were definitely many tensions over that shit.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That's just tact though, that's not about being bisexual. There's plenty of bi women who aren't that socially unaware that they drag their boyfriend to a lesbian panel and force everyone to center them

[–][deleted] 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The tactless ones caused a real problem for the genuine ones, but lesbians always took the blame. Just like the Katy Perry “kissed a girl” bisexuals are tactless, or the women who call themselves bi and only have threesomes, or women who think Cate Blanchet is hot but would probably not date women. Lesbians seem to take a lot of blame for being mistrustful when the “bisexual umbrella” is full of so many women who don’t take women seriously, and you literally rarely see bisexuals calling this out. I think people should clean up their own house before claiming lesbians are phobic as if we have no reason to be.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree with you, I just think that none of this changes that for example, in places like actuallesbians there are like 10 bi women for every 1 lesbian. I don’t see how pretending to be a lesbian in places like this (which is the way most lesbian spaces are now) has anything to do with pleasing lesbians when the girls in this space are mostly speaking to bi and trans women. We often don’t even run our own spaces, leadership is usually also bisexual. And then there’s real life where these girls are usually telling straight people (especially straight men) that they’re lesbians.

[–][deleted] 32 insightful - 1 fun32 insightful - 0 fun33 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We were too inclusive of people who have very little empathy for us. That’s how we got here, or at least contributed. The reality is, being a woman who is exclusively same-sex attracted is a very specific experience of the world, and the only bisexual women who understand this are those who have been in long term relationships with women, and spent a long time in the community, not in their heads about attraction to women. And those are the women who have a hard time letting go of their view of themselves as lesbians because it has literally informed huge portions of their life experiences. Being part of that. I feel bad for them, for that reason. It must be really hard. But I feel less bad for them when they keep using “lesbian,” and little compassion for women who use it without even knowing what it actually is. Many bi women who are lifers in the LGB community are really upset about this stuff too, especially seeing so many women who are intent on erasing lesbians and bi women at the same time

Edit: I guess we have had to start being the “mean dykes” they think we are by setting boundaries, but what the fuck else are we supposed to do when we are unwelcome in our own spaces? They helped create this but still need to play victim

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most people where I am don't believe in lesbians having a space separate from bisexual women. And they subscribe to "bi lesbian"

[–]Gacho666 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have also thought that, I think that some lesbians knowing that we were few and believing that because of this there were few opportunities to flirt were too open and not only did a lot of bi come in in the long term but also brought as a consequence men saying that they are lesbians (I remember that jokes were made about this, now it is a real problem) and now they have taken us out of our own spaces (which were already few) both physically and online.

[–]LesbianInExile 28 insightful - 2 fun28 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I find it weird when bi (or straight) women like the label lesbian and feels it makes them interesting or more appealing. I presume it only has those benefits if you are actually into guys so don't actually get a lot of the shit or internalised lesbophobia that lesbians often have to deal with. I have struggled to use the word lesbian to describe myself (using gay instead or just referring to dating or liking women - or just keeping my mouth shut - rather than saying the word lesbian) but they want the word I guess because it doesn't come with the same baggage for them.

If a woman genuinely believed she was a lesbian but later in life met a guy she fell in love with (if that does really happen?) then I can understand that she would have had a lot of the same experiences as actual lesbians growing up and maybe wouldn't relate to other bi women as much - but obviously if she is in love with and dating a man she is bisexual - just a bi woman whose experienced a different path in life.

[–]sootsprite 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Once "women with exceptions" understand that wanting to have it both ways actually hurt real lesbians, they are fine calling themselves just bisexuals

Unfortunately quite a few dig their heels in and insist that they're still lesbians, even as they're actively dating men

[–]Gacho666 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is true that the bi and pansexuals who call themselves lesbians do us as much harm as the radfem who call themselves lesbians for politics.

[–]Gearbeta 33 insightful - 2 fun33 insightful - 1 fun34 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Most likely answer is that they are bisexuals who are lying about their sexuality. I could believe the exception story except it seems to happen a lot around ages 25-30.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 20 insightful - 9 fun20 insightful - 8 fun21 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

And mysteriously, the one guy who they liked in the entire world, over the course of their entire life, happened to like them back, and like them enough that they got married. Sure.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 11 fun14 insightful - 10 fun15 insightful - 11 fun -  (0 children)

Lugs with baby fever. Lol. Every time

[–]VioletRemi 30 insightful - 7 fun30 insightful - 6 fun31 insightful - 7 fun -  (11 children)

Many bisexual people are calling themselves lesbians (or gay), if they are prefering same sex more than opposite sex (I wonder if it is they who invented this stupid "sexuality is fluid" thing) or it is "political lesbians", who are often straight. I tried relationship with one once, and I clearly saw that she was not really liking to be in relationship with women, and she was feeling something like "and i will be doing 'this' until those men apologize to me or until i find my perfect prince".

You should not call any of them lesbians, as they just aren't. If we will call everyone who calling themselves lesbians, then those guys with beards and penises who claiming to be lesbians in dating app will be lesbians too. And that is just ridiculous!

[–]Ricky_Ticky 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Maybe the problem could have been solved if there was a clear distinction between sexual and romantic attractions. Some people are sexually exclusively attracted to their own gender while romantically they might as well like the oposite gender.

If a girl is wired like that, theoretically she has all the rights to call herself a lesbian. Sexually she is only into women and being lesbian is a sexual orientation. But for "real" lesbians she is bi and it would be unfair to make us think otherwise.

[–]oofreesouloo 34 insightful - 4 fun34 insightful - 3 fun35 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Omg, for me the split attraction model only makes sense to assexuals. This biromantic thing makes no sense to me. A deep connection platonically without any sexual component with it already has a name - friendship. Literally everyone in the world, unless you're a psychopath or have clearly some mental issues, is theoretically capable of connecting emotionally with anyone, regardless of the sex.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It makes a lot of sense when describing asexuals for sure, but for us a relationship without sexual attraction potential would be a close friendship.

[–]yousaythosethings 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I had a moment where I thought the split attraction model made sense for non-asexuals and then realized that it causes more confusion than anything and causes people to not dig into their own feelings. I had a mental block around being in a relationship with a woman because I didn’t know what that looked like. I had no examples. As soon as I saw it up close in real life, a switch was flipped and I realized that that was what I wanted some day. Suddenly I could picture it happening. The problem was lack of female-female relationship representation and that even women are taught not to take other women seriously.

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

See that's exactly what I've wondered about the "romantic" vs sexual attraction model! People are like, "I'm only romantically attracted to this sex" and I'm like, I must not be romantic at all lol because it just seems like friendship to me.

This is my trouble with asexuals who are "sexual but not romantic" (that is literally an oxymoron..). If someone is heterosexual but just doesn't want a romantic relationship, how the fuck do they relate to they asexual community? Isn't that like, bad for asexuals because people could be like "Oh, so they say they're not into sex but actually they might be. You just have to find the right one." ?

[–]plumedoomer 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You're aren't romantic. You don't have romantic feelings. You only have sexual ones.

You are aromantic.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Goddammit. Time to check out an asexual card.

[–]VioletRemi 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Well, she still will not find "that one prince" and marry him, if she is only romantically attracted to men.

For the reasons of society pressure and me being homeless - I married a man when was 18, and he was amazing person, but nothing was happening in bed, and even on cool romantic dates I felt more about the surroundings and atmosphere, than about person I was on date with. So I ended up thinking I am frigid or "broken". And even I really liked him as a person, nothing really romantic or sexual was happening. This means that if woman will be into romantic or marry and be happy with man - she was just bisexual all along and had feelings for men, just never found good man to really relate with.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Romantic attraction without physical is called “friendship” lol. Usually we like our partners as friends and sexually.

[–]carrotcake 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel that sometimes lesbians use this split attraction model when they don't want to recognize that they are actually lesbians - because they are "biromantic". Maybe more like internalized homophobia?

It's weird seeing straight women that only say "boyfriend/husband" when talking about hypothetical partners calling themselves bisexual, people that are bisexual calling themselves lesbians and actual lesbians failing to recognize that they are lesbians.

[–]Lizzythelezzo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have come across asexuals who like kissing, cuddling and building a life with someone, but they don't want to touch someone's boobs, butt or genitals. I would consider that to be a romantic non-sexual relationship, though some people might just call it platonic partners or committed friends. I mean you can call that whatever you want but from the outside, most people will just assume it's a regular romantic relationship. I doubt many non-asexuals would be interested in a relationship like that, though.

[–]oofreesouloo 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a lesbian, I have the same opinion as you. It seems like being a lesbian is this super cool thing and a VIP club, yet the actual lesbians aren't never allowed to get in and being an actual lesbian, more often than not, sucks lmao.

These women are straight up bisexual women. They don't fool me. I don't know why, but many bisexual women seem to be obsessed with being seen and trying to be 'lesbians' wtf

[–]hufflepuff-poet 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

I feel like these women are probably bisexual. but when you're a woman attracted to women and men, women are more attractive partners because so few men have actual decent personalities, so they have dated more women and finally found a guy with a half decent personality and instead of questioning if her identity matches her actual orientation and maybe accepting her bisexuality, she doubles down on her lesbianism and exclaims he's an "exception". This hurts lesbians and bisexual women and only benefits men, I hate it.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

But see for me it isn't even the dating itself. Like let's say there is some girl who thinks men usually have crappy personalities so she has only clicked with women. But she will still naturally know how she feels when she looks at idk Chris Hemsworth in a movie. She will know what she thinks about the idea of a penis. I don't buy that they had NO CLUE at all that they were bisexual, at least not in the vast majority of cases. And as I said, in many cases I have seen that these girls will still claim their husband is the "exception" even though they were sleeping with men a week before they met him.

[–]Gearbeta 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Regarding the penis thing, while I agree that in most of these cases they should know if they're attracted to men or not, a lot, and I mean A LOT of straight women have told me they find penises disgusting. And a lot of straight men find vaginas gross. It was one of the things that confused me before I accepted my sexuality.

[–][deleted] 20 insightful - 3 fun20 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

My condolences to their partners if they are actually straight. If a lesbian told me she didn’t like pussy I would be out the door.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I agree with you that it can be hard to realize you are gay. I don't think this is the same situation though, actually it is the opposite. It is hard to realize you are gay at times because society is heteronormative and you often don't realize that you aren't like the rest of the pack. It can be easy to rationalize what's going on because you don't know many people like yourself and have not been taught to understand those feelings. In many houses, people are even taught to NOT be gay.

It is another thing entirely to live in a heteronormative society, proclaim yourself to be gay against this society, and then claim to "not notice" that you wanted to suck a penis when the entire world expected and encouraged you to.

[–]Gearbeta 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You right. Because I would think wait I'm grossed out by dick but so are a lot of straight girls?? But the difference is that I'm not attracted to men at all whereas straight girls would swoon over men they found cute. Interestingly the straight girls who find dicks gross will almost never claim to be lesbians but bis who admit to loving dick will lie about their sexuality.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Or you read that stat that most straight women don’t orgasm from piv sex, or AT ALL in the majority of their sex with men. That would be confusing. But there is no way it would take a tons of guys to figure out you’re a lesbian unless there were other variables involved. Many other variables

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    It depends on the angle of your clit. Women with an inch or less of space between their vaginal opening and clit are more likely to get off more easily through penetration BECAUSE of internal stimulation of the clit, that is why we angle our fingers upward if she’s on her back. The clit goes back like 6 inches. I can orgasm from pressure on my mons if I am aroused enough. Like, just pressure on the pubic bone. Lots of WOMEN don’t understand their own anatomy or feel comfortable explaining what they need. The world is not focused on female pleasure in reality, just the idea of causing it.

    [–]Gearbeta 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I've never slept with a man but yeah you're totally right, it was confusing because I'm not attracted to men but the people who were supposed to be attracted to men didn't seem to be in a way that made any logical sense to me at the time.

    [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yeah, it would be easy to assume attraction was whatever and sex was whatever, but only if you had very little contact with women and no female friends. I wasn’t attracted to men either, but when I did feel attraction it was to women and PRETTY OBVIOUS fairly quickly. Some women experience less attraction in general, to anyone, and also women who have homophobic upbringings or religious families, homophobic countries or cultures would likely have a more complex experience of coming out or even admitting stuff

    [–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    It is another thing entirely to live in a heteronormative society, proclaim yourself to be gay against this society, and then claim to "not notice" that you wanted to suck a penis when the entire world expected and encouraged you to.

    That is a super useful distinction. Thank you for pointing that out!

    [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

    This is the exact same narrative I’ve heard, but it’s honestly from the women who are already into dudes on some level. If they are your friends they eventually admit it. People don’t usually respond well to it. Lol. One of my friends started dating a man and even her family responded poorly. She was such a rah, rah, lesbian! before that and such a man-hater and attacking everyone that it seemed super hypocritical to them after all the drama. She will always be my friend, so whatever, but I think she gets why lesbians get so reflexively stressed out every time this happens. It just makes me feel sad, happy she’s happy, but sad when the pool gets smaller, yikes.

    [–]Astrid2448[S] 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

    As an aside, I think being really anti-men is another red flag for a "lesbian". It makes it seem like they have this laundry list of grievances for why they don't want to be with a guy, like they're staying away with intention. When in my experience actual lesbians (myself included) don't really care enough to hate guys like that. Because us not being interested in a man has nothing to do with whether or not he's a good person

    [–][deleted] 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I barely even notice guys unless we are buddies and they are cool. My lesbianism has nothing to do with men. If I didn’t have any male friends that I would miss, I could easily move to a lesbian-only planet and be cool with that. Lol. I know lots of good people who are women, men, trans whatever. I avoid extreme man-hating lesbians as surely as I avoid man-loving lesbians, if any lesbian is that preoccupied with men I’m gonna get bored with her eventually. I’ve got many grievances with male social gender roles, and male violence, and other dumb shit mostly involving dudes, don’t get me wrong. But I don’t think women are some pure lifeform either and know lots that would benefit to stop participating in their own oppression.

    [–]Astrid2448[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yeah, agreed. Sure I have my issues with sexism and stuff but I know plenty of cool dudes. I've got guy friends that are smart, handsome, kind, etc. and they are going to be great boyfriends to somebody. It's just not me and that's cool

    [–]Ricky_Ticky 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    I always thought the same. I find it kinda normal when straight women complain about men but when lesbians do it... I highly doubt they are lesbians for real

    [–]Astrid2448[S] 18 insightful - 11 fun18 insightful - 10 fun19 insightful - 11 fun -  (8 children)

    There's a line between normal venting like about sexism at work and "men are awful! all they do is lie, cheat, and attack us! i don't even associate with ANY men at all! lesbians RISE UP!!" like maam this is a wendy's

    [–][deleted] 17 insightful - 6 fun17 insightful - 5 fun18 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

    Or my personal fav “I am so happy that I am a lesbian because men men men men men men, and I love women”

    [–]oofreesouloo 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

    I see that one A LOT in actuallesbians. Wonder why lmao.

    [–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Yeah, performative man-hating to convince the others and themselves they are gay, or actual man hating because of bad men experiences being confused for gay. Occasionally actually gay women actually hate men, but most of us are more likely to be indifferent to men themselves but hate patriarchy and gender roles

    [–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yeah exactly!! I have seen that one a LOT. Tbh that's part of why I've been confused about my sexuality for so long. Do you guys really think this is a thing? I don't hate men-- though sometimes I wonder why I don't, lol, given the awful stuff I've been through at the hands of men, but I just don't feel the same when I look at any man vs a girl I like. It's just so qualitatively different.

    I will say too, I know AL is largely bisexuals/pansexuals so like, the people ranting about men so often are probably not good representations of "lesbians", they indeed are bisexuals even by their own self-identification.

    [–]Lizzythelezzo 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    I think half the time it's just MTF trans people saying they hate men, to make them feel more like "real women".

    [–]Ricky_Ticky 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Oh yes, so so happy until the next "exception" comes around lol

    [–]7of99 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    That and if a woman says she's a lesbian because her ex-boyfriend(s) never gave her an orgasm BUT she talks about men being "hot" or how she was turned on by them but the sex wasn't fulfilling. Statistically, lots of men are shitty and selfish in bed, so not enjoying sex with particular guys should not be confused with lesbianism (and it's another reason it's not necessary to "try" having sex with someone of a given sex to know whether you're oriented to that sex or not). Swooning over men (genuinely and not intentionally mimicking to fit in) and then saying they are hot but you wouldn't go to bed with them because they are probably shitty in bed is not a lesbian experience. It's fine to be straight or bisexual and choose not to date or have sex with men for whatever reason, but it's not lesbian.

    It sucks because this reinforces the myth that gets applied to lesbians that we only think we are lesbian because the guy(s) we were (assumed to be) with were just shitty lovers. I don't know how common it is but I've known a few girls and young women who have lackluster or bad experiences with guys, "try lesbianism" and then they end up either getting with men again or being extremely vocally anti-men but still talk about how so-and-so is so hot and it's too bad he's one of those awful men. It's distinct from women who become really anti-men due to horrible abuse, and I think anyone who stops and thinks about how prevalent some of these horrific abuses are will get angry from time to time about it, even my straight father, and that's different too, especially when you channel that anger into actual charity work or activism.

    [–]Rao 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

    When in my experience actual lesbians (myself included) don't really care enough to hate guys like that.

    I think being really anti-men is another red flag for a "lesbian".

    But can you see how this is an inherently self fulfilling prophecy?

    [–]Astrid2448[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

    No?

    [–]Rao 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    OK, so, I'm a real lesbian who really hates men but if I was honest about that then my community would call into question my sexuality like the rest of the world does in addition to whatever social consequences exist for being an open misandrist. Thus, I'm not honest about my feelings and others like you see and conclude that actual lesbians don't care enough to hate men. Get it now?

    [–]Astrid2448[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    Yeah, I do suspect the sexuality of people who hate men to the point of being proud misandrists. No, the vast majority of women in general (lesbians or otherwise) are not misandrists. Most lesbians actually have a decent amount of male friends since we tend to be gender non-conforming, at least in hobbies if not in appearance as well. Even in a space like this, lol

    [–]Rao 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Yeah, I do suspect the sexuality of people who hate men to the point of being proud misandrists

    You believe it's impossible to be a misandrist and a lesbian?

    [–]VioletRemi 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    It is possible, obviously. However, you can be straight and hate men, that has nothing to do with sexuality.

    [–]VioletRemi 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Hating men does not make anyone a lesbian. Exclusively loving women does. And the rest does not matter at all, if you love women and women only.

    [–]Rao 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    I don't disagree and wasn't claiming otherwise.

    [–]VioletRemi 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    In my experience, majority of bisexual women (and men) are ending in opposite sex marriages. I saw on youtube few bisexual woman+woman married couples, thought, but never met any in real life or internet. So seems it is happening, just very rarely.

    [–][deleted] 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    I grew up in a time when being gay, lesbian or bi wasn’t the cool new thing to do. It was a simpler time for sure, and I’m happy I was there. Peoples need for labels and attention have really messed stuff up for those of us who are, in reality, lesbians. It’s been kind of sad watching what was such a tight knit community be infiltrated by people who use it to make themselves feel special. The first big wave I noticed was the girls who claimed to be bi sexual to impress men, I knew it was over from there. Oddly enough this corresponded with the invention of internet porn. And now here we are. Shit has devolved to a point of messy as hell. The idea of a real lesbian having an “exception” makes me want vomit. This has also made me very weary of any one who claims to be bisexual, most of them end up married to men. I have often debated opening a lesbian only community. Unfortunately most of them die out due to lack of support.

    [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    I remember those women. I remember being so happy more women felt comfortable to come out and then realized they didn’t actually mean it, for the most part. Lots of young lesbians are going to see the majority of the queer/bi/pan for attention women disappear into het partnerships as time goes on and feel pretty bummed out at how few of us there really are

    [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

    I can’t even count the number of time I’ve been called an asshole for telling young fledgling lesbians not to try and get serious about the queer/bi/pan/alphabet soup girl they are infatuated with because she’s going to leave them for a man. I should have a shirt that just says “I told you so” to wear around when they come cry about it a few moths later. I’m just sad that our sense of community is getting stripped away more and more every day.

    [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    I would not tell the really young women that, personally, because the bi girls might actually be legit bi or even lesbians who don’t know yet. People in their teens and early 20s eventually figure it out for themselves anyway. I would hate to see a woman exclude a woman based on one being “bi” at that age. The odds are not great but it’s hard to tell young people not to go there.

    If it was someone older and new I would definitely tell them to watch out for certain types if she was asking me, but most people do what they want anyway! Lol

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    All I can say is the late 1990’s and early 2000’s were a bitch lol.

    [–]CJLez 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I met a woman who had been in straight relationships until she was approx 30 and then identified as a lesbian, which is plausible because later-in-life lesbians do exist. However, now that she's in her early 60s she's fallen in love with a guy and has come out as bisexual.

    Part of me wonders if her 'lesbianism' was either political or a result of a bad straight relationship but at least she's admitting she's bisexual.

    [–][deleted] 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Bisexuals literally call that the “bi cycle,” where they are into men, then women, then men, then women. I can’t imagine being with someone that cycles like that.

    [–][deleted]  (72 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]yousaythosethings 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

      I’m a late bloomer lesbian and can confirm that I’ve known I was attracted to women since I was young. It just took me a while to accept that I wasn’t attracted to men. I only had one male partner though so it’s not like I was ever super into men. I never even went on a single date with a guy that wasn’t set up my someone else. Given my upbringing and childhood trauma I just thought my lack of interest in and attraction to men was a problem for me to get over and I had no lesbians or bi women in my life so I never even considered the possibility that I could be in a relationship or partnered in some way with a woman.

      [–][deleted]  (12 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]yayblueberries 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        The latebloomerlesbians sub on Reddit was a total shitshow of bicurious women who claimed to be lesbians who were straight and just hated their ex-husbands. I was in their Discord for maybe a week. What a bunch of assholes they were.

        [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

        Whoops, wish I had seen this comment first before I replied to your other one lol.

        Are there really women claiming to have comphet without being attracted to women, though..? That literally makes no sense. I thought comphet was for differentiating between bi vs. lesbian, not straight vs. lesbian. The attraction to women is a non-negotiable for me, haha.

        I will take a look at r/latebloomerlesbians out of curiosity.

        [–][deleted]  (8 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

          I'll admit that some of my position is informed by my inability to fathom how any entire lesbian can ever think she wants to be with a man

          That's totally fair haha. I think it makes so much sense to me because it is just a type of brainwashing, and humans are extremely susceptible to brainwashing on ANY topic. I used to watch documentaries about cults for fun, so it makes a lot of sense to me.

          I've yet to see very conclusive evidence to suggest comphet is the main reason lesbians come out later. I think there is a lot more to it, mainly sexism.

          Oh, I think we might actually be talking about the same thing-- I thought comphet was a subtype of sexism. That only lesbians experience. So like, lesbophobia, directed towards yourself.

          those who have an extensive past with dating men, with every opportunity not to, and apparently all while "hating" it.

          I know a lesbian IRL (one of the only lesbians I know IRL) who dated 5-6 guys before realizing she was lesbian because she thought that she "just hadn't found the right one yet". She has dated exclusively women for the past several years and never talks about be attracted to guys or anything like that, so it's easy to believe her when she says she is. But, I do think that some of those women you describe might not actually be lesbians, and really just need to work out their issues with men. I don't want to dismiss them though, because I'm sure some of them ARE lesbians.

          disillusioned to the point of dating multiple men and being married entirely on their own volition.

          Ah, okay, I see where you're coming from. I know it might be staggering to think so, but-- there are a lot of loveless marriages, period. Once you consider that, it's pretty easy to think that some of them might have at least one person in them who doesn't realize their sexuality, lol.

          Thanks for talking about this stuff with me, it's helping me organize my thoughts :)

          [–][deleted]  (6 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Jesus, I relate to this so hard. You don't have to apologize, it's okay!

            If you want to talk more about this stuff, feel free to message me :) it makes me feel better to know I am not the only one here with these kinds of experiences, lol. I'm sorry you went through that.

            [–]Astrid2448[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

            You're not alone you know. I briefly dated 2 men when I was 17. I was really upset about being gay because I come from a very homophobic family. We are also upper class and there is a lot of keeping up appearances I suppose, so who you date or marry is a big thing because people see it as a status indicator. It made me the black sheep of the family and I was resentful of it.

            [–][deleted]  (3 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]Astrid2448[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

              How old are you? A lot of lesbians come out later in life

              [–]Gearbeta 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

              Yeah I agree that the harder part is figuring out you aren't attracted to men. Attraction to women was clear. There's a sliding scale of bullshit when it comes to late bloomers. Like virgin in late twenties or slept with one man she immediately ditched afterwards and didn't date for years after? Ok I can believe it. Repeated marriages, kids with a man, multiple long term relationships with men? Yeahhhh no.

              [–][deleted]  (3 children)

              [deleted]

                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  Yes, and coming out as gay is a huge loss for men because they are viewed as less masculine by other men. Men are generally extremely homophobic and even violence toward gay men.

                  [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  Exactly. Your experience was complicated and the result of a bunch of stuff. You’re not running around saying the devil made you do it, and it was comphet. Lol. It makes sense

                  [–]RedditHatesLesbians 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                  Yeah I always kind of knew I was attracted to women, but didn't really recognise it as attraction until later. I just assumed all women felt like I did. I actually spent a lot of time wondering if I was asexual because of my lack of sexual attraction towards men, because that seemed more plausible in my head then than being a lesbian - the culture of close intimacy between women made me feel like wanting that was normal. Similarly, I only later realised that me becoming obsessed with girls at school and thinking they're super pretty wasn't straight. I think comphet can't make you attracted to men, just make you feel as though your attraction to women isn't attraction, just what heterosexuals totally experience. But that's just my take.

                  [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

                  I completely agree. The whole comphet thing is a nightmare idea. It only applies to a small number of situations. So many women are like “but comphet” when they literally have years of trauma and personal stuff and other circumstances that they owe it to themselves to get help for. People’s roads to coming out are different for many reasons and labelling it all comphet is not going to help

                  [–][deleted]  (5 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                    Exactly. We all felt pressure to like a guy. To fit in. To not been seen as disgusting and predatory. To not be seen as the “lesbian” only, instead of ourselves. I had male friends that I was such good friends with I would just wish to feel something for them, you know? But you can’t force it.

                    Lots of gay men I knew were beaten and kicked out for being gay. Young guys. Nowhere to go, but they couldn’t deny it was there. Same with women. Gay men get much worse when they come out, so the idea that so many lesbians are just kicking it in straight relationships like “whatever” because of pressure to be straight is just infantilizing.

                    [–]oofreesouloo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                    We all felt pressure to like a guy. To fit in. To not been seen as disgusting and predatory. To not be seen as the “lesbian” only, instead of ourselves. I had male friends that I was such good friends with I would just wish to feel something for them, you know? But you can’t force it.

                    Jeez, I could have written this exact same words myself. With my best friend of all time, who was a straight guy. He was the best friend I've ever had, the only one at the time who not only fully respected my sexual orientation, but helped me embrace it and accept myself when everyone else was making it sound there was something wrong with me. I cannot begin to explain this deep love that I had for this guy. No, he wasn't just talking to me for sex. He genuinely cared, I could talk to him literally about EVERYTHING (since the most stupid things to the most personal things and when I mean personal, I mean really personal). This guy literally cleared my tears a couple of times. He would also open up a lot to me and we had this really strong bond no one would interfere. We would talk on a daily basis, but as time gone by and due to lack of schedule compatibility we started to drift apart slowly, but I still care deeply about him 'till these days and if he ever needed me for something, I would be there. And at the time, I used to be SO angry at myself wondering WHY couldn't I feel anything for this guy? Anything being in a sexual way, in a romantic way, in a relationship way. It was purely platonic... I already knew I was a lesbian, but I didn't want to be. It used to make me so angry, and this guy knew I hated myself and he made me genuinely love myself and not be ashamed of it. I just wanted him to be happy, but not in a 'I want to be in a relationship with you way', but in a 'I want to be part of your life and meet your gf (which I did LOL) kind of way.' We were best friends for 5 years until we finally drifted apart eventually.

                    By the way, I'm so sorry for the length of this lmaaaaaaao

                    [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                    Yeah, I had a group of friends like that and they were such nice people to be around. They didn’t care if anyone was gay. We all moved to different cities, but it’s sad now to think that those mostly male straight kids I hung out with in high school and their girlfriends were the most accepting people I would ever know. Our own community isn’t even close

                    [–]oofreesouloo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                    Yeah, I had a group of friends like that and they were such nice people to be around. They didn’t care if anyone was gay. those mostly male straight kids I hung out with in high school and their girlfriends were the most accepting people I would ever know.

                    This, definitely. He was a really open minded guy and his previous best friend was another lesbian and he knew plenty of lgb(t) people. He just didn't care, just wanted everyone to be happy.

                    Our own community isn’t even close

                    Yes, our community is being run by lunatics who see homophobia as 'progressive'. Jesus Christ.

                    [–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                    I'm not saying that it's impossible for a lesbian to somehow end up suffering quietly for years in a heterosexual relationship, especially in more repressive parts of society, but she is not doing so because she has no idea she's a lesbian.

                    That's what happened to me (although only for a few years, and I was not married). I know that might seem pretty crazy, and I'm really glad it sounds like that didn't happen to you. But that's how it was for me, and I'm not a political lesbian, I'm not even very political at all. I don't think it's that rare. But I would be curious to see what the actual breakdown in numbers is.

                    [–]yousaythosethings 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

                    Learning about the concept of comphet helped me in my journey but there are a lot of things it didn’t answer and I can recognize that there was a lot of questionable shit in that master doc (e.g., past male partner came out as a trans woman - what the fucking fuck). As you said, looking at the totality of the circumstances of my situation, writing it all off as comphet would be a disservice and would be of no benefit to other lesbians in similar circumstances who may resonate with my experience.

                    I also listened to a lot of episodes of the Lesbian Chronicles which is kind of linked with that subreddit but I didn’t find it very relatable. IMHO they gloss over all the important stuff and their message is mainly “everything is great now. Living the dream. Everyone is so accepting including friends, family, and every lesbian. Dating is no problem.” I don’t think one of the women Melisa even really explained how she reached the realization that she was a lesbian. She also made it seem like she had no awareness of her attraction to women until her late 30s. They just kind of worship the master doc and point to it for the answers and everything else is peachy now and just worked itself out.

                    I also didn’t hear anything from them about integrating into the lesbian community as an LBL and issues we may face, which to me is a pretty big topic if not THE topic. They make it seem like it’s not an issue. I know there will always be people and especially lesbians who are going to be inherently suspicious of me and think I’m kind of an idiot (which in this case I am lol) and for many lesbians this would be something that makes them not relate to me or want to be with me (and I accept that even though it hurts).

                    I can’t be the only LBL who is concerned about these things but it often feels like I am, and it does give the impression that the LBL subreddit is full of women who see being a lesbian or bisexual as some kind of cure to a problem. Like a lifestyle change or a special hobby. Definitely some overlap with the trans cult in that regard.

                    Anyway that’s why that sub is mostly useless to me at this point. I left my husband. I don’t have any kids to worry about. I don’t want to engage in discussions of comphet because to the extent that I experienced it, it’s behind me and the spell is broken. I’m mainly interested in integrating into the lesbian community to be among my people and especially the terven ones.

                    [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

                    I can’t imagine how shitty it is to come out after being married to a dude and I think it would actually be a total bummer because the community is horrible and crazy right now, the worst it’s ever been, and I’ve spoken to other late bloomers who are really struggling to understand why lesbians are being so gatekeeping with other lesbians etc. You would definitely have a much much different experience of coming out than any of us and that is not something I envy.

                    That master doc is horrendous. I feel bad for all the women who are freaking out and confused and read that goddamn thing. It makes the craziest things into “you’re a lesbian!” It reads like conversion therapy, the shit the right wingers LITERALLY ACCUSE US OF DOING, recruiting. I’m a gold star and I don’t relate to the majority of it.

                    And you’re right, it’s not a cure, it’s not full of accepting people, dating is not great, and it’s harder to be a lesbian than ever. Those people sound like they are living in a fantasy world.

                    And yes, lots of lesbians will be suspicious of you. For sure. It’s hurtful and it sucks, but the good ones for you will listen. You can see why we don’t trust anyone these days. It’s honestly not even about late bloomers, it’s about the community in general. We are on edge. I don’t blame you for being like wtf in the lb community and then wtf in TL or here when you see how suspicious we are. It wasn’t like this before. Just stick around

                    Edit: you’re not stupid, either. You figure it out when you figure it out. It just sucks to figure it out later because people get scared. Not your fault and it doesn’t make you stupid.

                    [–]CJLez 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

                    That master doc is horrendous.

                    I had only skimmed the masterdoc once before and a couple of bits I related to but I've just been re-reading it fully and some parts really are terrible, esspecially...

                    Now a common misconception is also thateveryone is born knowing they are gay and that’s not necessarily true. It canbe because of both nature AND nurture. If you have had terrible experienceswith men and now would like to no longer date them because you don’t seeyourself being truly happy with a man and would only like to date women,you can be a lesbian too. It’s okay to try on the lesbian identity and see howit fits you because many lesbians were unsure of how they felt about menuntil they identified as lesbians.

                    It's true that not everybody has the terminology to describe their same-sex attraction (I thought I was the only 'lesbian' in the whole world until I was 13 because it was pre-internet and nobody had told me that some people weren't straight) but saying that it is nature and nurture is literally saying that having a bad time with men can turn someone into a lesbian rather than it being an inate sexuality that you discover later on. Fucking hell. Talk about political lesbianism 101. If you don't want to date men you can just stay single.

                    Knowing you’re attracted to women, but feeling weirdly guilty and uncomfortabletrying to interact with them as a straight man, and only later realizing you’reactually a trans lesbian

                    Oh boy.

                    Knowing you’re gay, but experiencing a lot of the symptoms of comp het whenyou try to interact with men romantically/sexually, and only later realizing you’rea trans lesbian and not a gay man

                    I don't even have words for that one. Know that you're gay but experience zero same sex attraction? It proves that 'gay/lesbian' is just a fun little label for some people.

                    hint: 100% straight women do exist

                    I don't know why it is so easy for people to understand that there are people who only experience opposite-sex attraction but can't wrap their heads around people who only experience same-sex attraction. This document feels like it is defining lesbian as anything from 99% attraction to men up to 100% attraction to women. Bisexual is not a bad word.

                    Ifyou are unsure or questioning, feel free to try on the lesbian label as well

                    Again, not a label.

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                    [deleted]

                      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                      That’s what I thought when I read it. I should do a word count on the number of times it says “men” compared to “women.” Because honestly, I’ve never in my whole entire life read anything so man-centered that is meant to define lesbianism or same-sex attraction. That should answer the question right there. If you’re thinking this much about every man-thing you do and so little about women, you ain’t a homo, sis. Lol

                      [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                      Also: they take literally every single possible scrap of evidence of a female being literally into men and debunk it. It’s all “you don’t really like men even though you like men” “you want attention from men but you don’t want it because you want it” “all those men you think are attractive are not actual real attractions” “all those celebrities and male fictional characters you like are all just you being hot for fake men because you’re actually a lesbian and don’t have to date them” “when I man you like likes you back and you immediately don’t like him it’s because you’re actually gay”

                      It’s so dumb. It’s like telling women it’s actually impossible to be straight or bi. It’s such a weird fucking thing

                      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      If I felt even 50% of those things about men at all, ever, I would have been relieved to maybe not have to be a lesbian. And I came out in a really really homophobic time. Sexual orientation is complex, but it is some pretty extreme mental gymnastics to say that women who feel most of those things about men are not bisexual, at the very least.

                      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      I am more concerned about how they assign “maybe gay” values to random stuff like not wanting to fuck random dudes but liking the “idea of being with a man.” Yeah, most women are not attracted to most guys. Most lesbians are not into every lesbian. Being nervous about something or being averse to something or having a bad experience of something can all make you not want that thing, it doesn’t mean you’re a damn lesbian, or bi, or straight. Jesus.

                      [–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                      For a hot minute I bought into the hateful, gatekeeping, bi-phobic lesbian rhetoric. But I peaked pretty quickly and suddenly it all made sense and I saw the propaganda for what it was.

                      It’s honestly crazy how manipulative the media is in presenting the Get The L Out movement, for example. It’s all “these old ugly boring ass lesbians blame trans and queer people for their problems” with no attempt to present the lesbian perspective.

                      One of the most eye-opening concepts to me in my life has been “The Missing Missing Reasons.” I learned about it in the context of understanding the gaslighting I received from my narcissistic mom, but it applies generally to propaganda and other narcissistic behavior: http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-reasons-given.html . So I sensed that something was off here and had to dig hard to find out what it was. I actually unintentionally documented my peaking thought process in texts to my friend so I can look back and see what was running through my head. It took about 3 weeks between my initial peaking to reach full comprehension and stop making excuses for TRAs and fully embrace lesbian gatekeeping.

                      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      Yeah, unfortunately I have heard people say lesbians are all mean, old, fat, ugly, dykes and no one wants to be lesbians and they are just hateful etc and none of those people are able to see past their own feelings on the issue into what lesbians have been experiencing. Yes, there are lots of lesbians behaving badly over all of these issues and being mean when they shouldn’t. But to act like it comes from “ugliness and oldness” is like associating anything else with virtuousness, when shallow people are anything but pure. Lesbians are not inherently terrible people. We are the ones who have actually been welcoming to the other letters of the alphabet soup, but people forget that when they want it all.

                      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      I am sure you are noticing a lot of very solipsistic behaviour from the TRAs. It is recognized by any of us who had parents or family who are pathologically selfish.

                      [–]Swenfin 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      You hit the nail on the head regarding how the LBL community is very cult like. One of the things that's always stood out to me is the way they speak about the Master Doc, as if it's some type of religious text that must be revered and studied. Very odd.

                      [–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

                      The whole comphet thing is a nightmare idea. It only applies to a small number of situations.

                      Do you mind if I ask what you mean by "comphet" then? It almost sounds as though we are talking about different things. As far as I understood it: comphet is internalized misogyny but specifically for lesbians.

                      I have never believed misogyny to be the cause of all my problems-- but I do think it is pretty common, and I think it's important to talk about. So why is comphet, a type of misogyny, a "nightmare idea"?

                      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

                      Lol. That’s not what it is at all, “compulsory heterosexuality.”

                      It assumes that women are forced to be straight, which happens in some cases, especially in very homophobic countries, religious families, stuff like that, but I think it’s infantilizing to women and has really been made into a way bigger influence that it actually is, especially in western societies where gay marriage is legal etc. Lots of times there are many reasons women don’t come out and it’s not because of comphet. Plus there is a “comphet” master list of nonsense I’ve seen circulated that is little more than confusing and insane and would probably cause more problems then it would solve.

                      [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

                      especially in very homophobic countries, religious families, stuff like that

                      Ah. I come from a very religious and homophobic family, so that likely factors in to why I find it so relevant and other people might not. I forget often that many other people are raised in nonreligious or not very religious families.

                      I think that there is probably a lot more insidious of a "forcing women to be straight" force going on that remains in a society even after its legal system has changed to accept a group; and a lot of laws do not favor us still, anyway. It is easy enough for us to say here in the US that we have solved the issue of people trying to force LGB people to be straight; but I believe there is a lot of that sentiment still lying around. The trans "woke conversion therapy" is just one manifestation of it.

                      I looked up more about the history of the term "compulsory heterosexuality". While it seems that my description of it may not have been its original intended use-- the way that I described it is, in fact, how many women today are talking about it and using it. If it helps people talk about their internalized misogyny and deal with it-- then I am all for it, especially if the old meaning it is overriding is not very useful anymore.

                      Plus there is a “comphet” master list of nonsense I’ve seen circulated that is little more than confusing and insane and would probably cause more problems then it would solve.

                      I think we will have to agree to disagree. I have seen that list before and found it to help me a lot. It is not infantilizing to me to talk about, it is empowering; it helped me learn to accept myself. But, if it is confusing some people then they should not read it, and should not have to feel like their experience is any less valid for not relating to it. If there are people who are saying that the comphet document (or comphet in general) is EVERYTHING there is to know about being a lesbian, then I would have to disagree.

                      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

                      It sounds like a cult document. I felt sick reading it. But yes, let’s agree to disagree about comphet as an idea. We disagree for sure. I think women lean too heavily on that idea and that clouds other aspects. That being said, if it helps you, that’s good.

                      EDIT for clarity on my position: you cannot diagnose yourself a lesbian using a list of vague points. I read through it and honestly, it could have been written by a young straight woman, easily. Or a young bi woman. Or maybe a lesbian. Sexuality is confusing and complicated, and the only true way to figure it out is by living in your real body, in your real life, having real sexual experiences. Everything else is conjecture. Many things sound better in the mind than in practice, and this applies to anything.

                      Writing a big long personal feelings list is fine for oneself, but when many other confused young women are taking your list and using it as a guideline or diagnostic tool and trying to jam their own experience into yours, it is more likely to lead women astray. So many of the points about how to tell if you are a lesbian literally have absolutely nothing to do with being a lesbian. It just sounds like a young person with little to no experience who doesn’t particularly find men all that interesting or sexy (seriously, this is common about most young women, lol). It does not mean she’s gay.

                      I honestly think the list is dangerous if people take it too seriously because people tend to try and conform to what they believe is true about themselves and not explore beyond it. This happens with any type of diagnosis or list of symptoms.

                      The only way you can know you’re into women is to have experiences in your body, with women. It’s fine to share common experiences as stories etc, but making a “comphet master list” and having people take it as seriously as a bible is not a good thing. The woman who wrote it was 21, her brain is not even fully developed yet. I just think women really need to be very careful in how they applies these ideas to their experience. I am REALLY REALLY glad I didn’t read anything like that as a young lesbian. It would have been a disaster for me.

                      [–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

                      All right, I went back and looked at the giant list and you've convinced me. This is long, but please bear with me.

                      I actually don't think that this document was intended as a brainwashing document. But upon re-reading, it seems that it is capable of doing so. I originally did not think so because of quotes like this:

                      comphet doc: "Compulsory heterosexuality is the voice in my head that says I must really be het even when I’m in love with a woman."

                      Shouldn't a straight woman, at least, read that and go: "Uhh, I'm not in love with a woman and never have been?" But I guess they might easily skip over that, and listen to the rest of the document. I'll get to bi women in a sec.

                      This is an example of what struck me as concerning, re-reading through.

                      comphet doc: "If you’re questioning if you’re a lesbian, it's way more important to ask yourself if you can be truthfully happy with a man than if you’re attracted to them."

                      I think this is backwards. You can have comphet (or some similar type of internalized misogyny) if you are a bi woman, but that doesn't mean you're a lesbian. I can see how bi women could be highly confused by this. They might say, "Well, I wouldn't mind a relationship with a man, I would enjoy it-- but I think I'd enjoy one with a woman way more, so this must mean I am a lesbian."

                      Also, this is a highly misleading statement:

                      comphet doc: "Attraction is supposed to feel good."

                      Attraction probably doesn't feel "good" if you're a straight or bi woman in a relationship with domestic violence. As simply one example of how this could confuse someone who is not a lesbian.

                      Regarding how bi women could be confused by this. I think it is like: A bi woman could enjoy or be happy in a relationship with a man or a woman (though they might be happier in one vs. another depending on which way their preferences leaned). Whereas a lesbian could enjoy a relationship with a woman and only survive (or not, for some people maybe) a relationship with a man-- in the same way that I could "survive" living on a barren island alone for the rest of my life as opposed to not. I could do it, but it would suck, and a man could never fill that void in my life. - I actually don't think the comphet document clarifies this, now that I am looking through it again.

                      In summary. You're right. This document paints too broad a brush. I think it has helped a lot of people besides me, but-- now I am a little worried that there a lot of people out there who it might be confusing.

                      That being said-- I'd like to explain my previous position a little better, because I PROMISE you I am not the only one out there who was genuinely helped by the comphet doc.

                      • I assumed that people will ultimately determine their sexuality on the basis of their own lived experiences-- not some random post on the internet.
                      • I assumed that this document was intended for someone who already knows that a) they ARE attracted to women and b) are looking for permission to admit that they are NOT attracted to men. (Since society gives women shit for not being attracted to men.)

                      These assumptions are mistaken. However, I approached the document with these beliefs myself, and reading the document was helpful for me. I think that is real in and of itself and worth acknowledging-- and being dismissive of that (which you were not, but other people were) will turn away younger or more inexperienced lesbians from this community.

                      You seem like you have been in the lesbian community for a while. I know you might read shit like this "comphet master list" and have your alarm bells of go off immediately. And that's awesome. But, dude, I am already trying to un-brainwash from this TRA nonsense. My "lesbian alarm bells" are not developed. The comphet doc was one of the few supportive resources I have found so far. I have little trust for LGBT communities right now, and I am worried that other younger or inexperienced lesbians in my position might be scared off from joining or participating in this community, if they see such vehement opposition to the comphet doc without knowing why. Maybe we can have like a FAQ or sidebar link about this or something?

                      [–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

                      I think you and I are coming from the same place. I was helped by the master doc in my journey though I saw some ridiculousness in it that I just read past kind of like a plot misfire on a TV show that you pretend just never happened. I will have to take another look at the doc again with fresh eyes when I'm up to it. I also didn't mean to write a novel, but here we are because I'm procrastinating right now. . . .

                      But I, like you, already had recognizable and longstanding attraction to women. It took me a while to figure out what those feelings were and that it wasn't what every woman felt toward other women. Although subconsciously I always knew because I knew I couldn't talk openly about my attraction to women and desperately wanted to hide it. I couldn't join in sharing my "celebrity girl crush" because literally all of my actual celebrity "crushes" were women. Even my ex-husband knew this lol and it apparently didn't set off alarm bells. I dreaded people even asking me who my celebrity crush was because I wouldn't want to lie and couldn't think of who a plausible guy would be. When I shared that I thought that people only pretended that Ryan Gosling is attractive because they liked his role in the The Notebook, people looked at me like I had three heads.

                      I had many moments of other people noticing the gay within me or at least trying to bring it to the surface. Shortly after I met my later husband he asked me if I was a lesbian (I was 18 at the time ugh). In grad school, this one woman I desperately tried to avoid because I was super attracted to her kept trying to talk to me and bring up gay shit to me including asking who I thought was the most attractive woman in our class. No, I did not say "you." She came out as a lesbian right after graduation (Fuck) and I was kind of in denial about that too because she was literally the most attractive person in our year, very conventionally all-American attractive and I had stupid ideas about lesbians due to lack of exposure. Seeing her a few years later with her female date was part of a quick series of things that made me realize I needed to figure my shit out.

                      In addition to my longstanding attraction to women, I also had a recognizable and longstanding history of trying to be attracted to men and just not and settling for not attraction but companionship/admiration/respect in my one and only male partner and the comfort of finally having a stable family (his). I never had anything resembling a boy crazy phase. I have also received a lot of male attention in my life, so it's not like I didn't have options. It just never felt right and it felt like there was a wall between men and myself. I never knew what to do with male attention and I honestly hated the idea of men looking at my body.

                      So yep, I also read that document under the assumption that the other women who were reading it and found it to resonate with them had similar life experiences as mine and yours, and I didn't consider the fact that many have not and are just lost, confused, and looking for a solution to their problems in the same way people are drawn into the trans cult. LGBTQ+ is now billed out as this cool, fun social club for misfits. I think a lot of the transbians on AL are RPGing and are even transbians in real life and some are RPGing online as actual lesbians.

                      This arguable indoctrination is especially concerning because it may cause some particularly vulnerable women in the LBL subreddit to RPG in the same way because I can see the confusion it's causing in a lot of women who are languishing in some cases for years wondering what this means about their sexual orientation and it's all being carried out in their heads and disconnected from any action. I do think the LBL subreddit is full of women (though not everyone is like this) obsessing over their sexual orientation, wondering what it all means and curious to experiment, but it seems disconnected from real world experiences. That's not to say that that they need to have a sexual encounter with a woman to know for sure, but you would think by that point in life they would have had significant crushes on women and things like that. I can confirm that when I posted there I got some responses from women who were questioning whether they were lesbians and going on about how much they were not into men, did not enjoy actual or the idea of sex with men, had severe mental health issues, but did not mention attraction toward women, which is kind of crazy. I thought we all ended up there because we were head over heels for women?

                      I don't know about you, but for me, a big part of the problem was not allowing myself to consider my sexual orientation. I knew I wasn't straight since I was in high school but I never adopted a label. I didn't want to figure out the parameters. I didn't want to add complication to my life. I came from a toxic home life and wanted stability. I don't even know if ubiquitous "What is my sexual orientation?" quizzes even existed online at the time. I certainly didn't search them out and they weren't in magazines. I had 4 magazine subscriptions from middle to high school and I distinctly remember that the only LGBT content I saw in there was an article from the perspective of a teenage girl called "My boyfriend cheated on me . . . with a GUY." LOL. My point is that as soon as I actively tried to figure out what I was, it became clear very quick. I think if a woman is actively trying to figure out her sexuality over a very long period of time and without any action or interest in action, then it's highly unlikely she's a lesbian.

                      I commented the other day that I was concerned that lesbianism (and also bisexuality), especially as broadcast in the Lesbian Chronicles, is being marketed as a cure to life's problems where everything is super great, any problems are glossed over, there is no fallout, everything will work itself out, everyone is understanding, and it's just like entering a super welcoming social club. It is very similar to TRA in that way, and I agree with Strictly that bi women are especially vulnerable to this. The attitude of "if you are even questioning this, you are" is especially yikes for them. I bet the trans cult would love to replace us Stepford Wives style with these indoctrinated, "you can be whatever you want to be" and "you are who you say you are" malleable "lesbians."

                      So I just did a quick search of comphet across the LBL subreddit and yikes again. There is a lot of unresolved trauma and anxiety. Realizing I was gay lifted my anxiety and fog. It didn't create it or add to it. There is even denial that most women are heterosexual and propagation of the idea that heterosexuality comes from the patriarchy as to all women. No, it comes from the biological need of the human race to reproduce and it is not surprising that most women are heterosexual. We're not the norm, and we shouldn't be because who else is going to produce the next generation of gay babies?

                      Oh and JFC here is this gem from r/LBL that is making a mockery of being a late-bloomer lesbian and that master doc. I'm peaking all over again. This might be worthy of a post to LGBDropTheT.

                      [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                      edit: I wanted to respond to this, totally forgot to.

                      I commented the other day that I was concerned that lesbianism (and also bisexuality), especially as broadcast in the Lesbian Chronicles, is being marketed as a cure to life's problems where everything is super great, any problems are glossed over, there is no fallout, everything will work itself out, everyone is understanding, and it's just like entering a super welcoming social club. It is very similar to TRA in that way, and I agree with Strictly that bi women are especially vulnerable to this.

                      I saw that comment, but I might actually go re-read that whole conversation now with this perspective about r/latebloomerlesbians in mind. It's really, really surprising to me to hear that lesbianism/bisexuality is being marketed as such... because growing up there was always such a negative connotation about them, for me. One of my religious relatives told me shit like "lesbians are all mean and nasty and horrible people" and other stuff I feel bad even repeating. Do you know who else is saying these sorts of things? I will take a look at the Lesbian Chronicles thing with these things in mind.

                      I just wanted to observe, too-- I identified as bisexual before, and so I realize that I'm in the demographic at risk for this sort of misunderstanding, as you and Strictly pointed out. I can't guarantee, I guess, in any way shape or form to you or anyone else, that I am lesbian-- because ultimately no one can see into another human's mind and be sure what their sexuality is. I believe that I am lesbian, but from talking to some people here it seems like there is little support for expressing uncertainty about your sexuality, or for you if you have identified as bisexual before. Other people seem uncomfortable with it, and I feel uncomfortable seeing people be like "I could never imagine a lesbian dating a man" and stuff like that. If people feel uncertain whether I should be commenting here-- then I'm not going to try to force myself into a space.

                      I have heard other commenters talk about "political bisexuals" who just refuse to date men but call themselves lesbians. I am not radfem and have never had this intention. I don't think I fall into the "avoiding attraction to men for trauma reasons" either. I feel like I am in a catch-22 because if I say that I identified as a bisexual before, then people will doubt that I am a lesbian; but I am just trying to be honest to who I am and to what is actually the case for me, and I don't think I'm bisexual. Also, I feel really bad for accidentally using bisexual as a "stepping-stone", I don't want to hurt bisexuals either. At the same time, this is my story and this is the best sense I have of it.

                      [–]yousaythosethings 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                      I don't know how concerted and purposeful the "marketing" is. I'm not one to dabble in conspiracy theories, but reaching peak trans has had the effect of me trying to understand wtf is going on so I can figure out where we go from here. It's been a never-ending domino effect of realizations. In the case of gender identity ideology/TRA vs. comphet, I think the championing of comphet at minimum is a side effect of TRA/gender identity ideology colonization if not a deliberate offshoot. Let's not forget that in gender identity ideology you can opt into and out of sexual orientation based on self-identification alone and no one can question it. This idea pairs nicely with the concept of comphet taken to the extreme, which is that women are not heterosexual by nature, heterosexuality is forced on women, and therefore it's something women can opt out of, and should want to opt out of.

                      I would summarize relevant key tenets of TRA/gender identity ideology as: (1) you choose your own adventure (SO much emphasis on personal choice and not being bound by our birth sex); (2) your "truth" is more important and real than "the truth" and NO ONE can question it; (3) to be your authentic self, you have to change everything about yourself including making your hobbies and lifestyle reflect this new identity; (4) being gay is a feeling (how many stories from trans people are there where they talk about how they just feel like their heterosexual attraction is "gay?"; (5) LGBTQ+ is a social club for misfits (which is why they're SO obsessed with the word "queer" - they want to stand out and be seen and heard, not just be human beings living their lives) and this group is held together by manipulation tactics like forced teaming to keep the cloak of legitimacy and normalcy obtained by LGB people who successfully fought for our rights by demonstrating how we are like everyone else, co-opting the oppression experienced by LGB people, and then gaslighting LGB people into believing our rights were the fruit of the labors of trans people.

                      As we know, "gay" isn't a feeling. It just means exhibiting exclusive same-sex attraction, and as it turns out if you're gay that sensation alone feels entirely normal. It just is. It doesn't require you to look, dress, or vote a certain way, or adopt a particular lifestyle. It's not an identity, but a description of a factual, biological reality. Just like being a natural redhead isn't itself an identity. But TRA and comphet is turning all of this on its head. They eschew that sexual orientation is about a factual description of your biological reality. They both completely uncouple sexual orientation from sex and biology (as I will explain below), and instead put the emphasis on how your sexual orientation should make you feel and the lifestyle associated with the sexual orientation. If you think you would be happier and more fulfilled adopting a "lesbian identity," then that's "valid." I just glanced at the Master Doc and some things that leapt out right away include:

                      • Wishing you were a lesbian to escape the discomfort of dating men

                      • Fantasizing about how much fun it would be to be a lesbian and just be with women/a specific woman, but thinking that can’t be for you (this would not be so bad if they didn't make it about "how much fun it would be to be a lesbian" specifically, which is emphasizing the label, lifestyle, and identity of "lesbian" over the factual circumstances that happen to make one a lesbian)

                      • You imagine a hypothetical future where you end up with a man and it makes you feel uncomfortable, scared, sad, disappointed, wrong. It’s an upsetting thing to think about and you hope it doesn’t happen. You don’t want to end up with a man even if you feel like you could.

                      • Having a lot of your ‘guy’ crushes later turn out to be trans women

                      • You wish you weren’t attracted to men / You wish you were a lesbian

                      • Thinking relationships would be simpler “if only I were attracted to women/my best friend who would be perfect for me if she/I weren’t a girl”

                      • Thinking you couldn’t be a lesbian because you’re not attractive enough, cool enough, or otherwise in the same league as most of the women you know (selling lesbians as the “cool girls” again. How many of us grew up thinking of lesbians as the “cool girls” club for Christ’s sake?)

                      You know what's missing from this master doc? Discussion of specific attraction to the particularities of female bodies. The shit that actually makes women lesbians. They've totally separated women from being female here. This is TRA ideology in action. The glaring sign that my attraction to women wasn't just some surface level "woman crush Wednesday" stuff was my intense attraction to the particularities of female bodies and desire to physically interact with these body parts: breasts (and specifically the feel of natural ones of all sizes), vulvas, clitorises, the idea of performing oral sex on a pussy generally, the softness of female bodies, the way women smell, the sound of female voices, women's hands, women's hair, women's eyes, women's laughs, etc. Here's the closest the master doc gets to discussing attraction to female bodies:

                      • Thinking that your interest in seeing attractive women/scantily clad women/boobs is an artificial reaction caused by the objectification of women in media (No details, just “interest in seeing . . . boobs.” Sounds like what a straight guy would say and transbians’ obsession with “tiddies.” No discussion of the specifics of sexual acts or sexual touching.)

                      • Feeling like you could enjoy sexual interaction with a woman, even if you can’t imagine having romantic feelings for a woman (could enjoy?)

                      In contrast, search the word “sex” on its own across the doc and notice how it’s all about sex with men. Just like with any trendy pseudoscience, there is a lot of legitimate stuff in the master doc to cover up the rest with the cloak of legitimacy. But if a straight woman is able to be convinced that she's not heterosexual because of comphet, it's not going to make her not straight, but TRA has a convenient way of allowing straight women in heterosexual relationships to be "queer." (i.e. by taking a trans-identified males as a romantic and sexual partner). And BAM, both are now "lesbians" and "so valid" and, in fact, they are oppressed by the terfy lesbians.

                      I had been noticing some yellow flags in r/LBL and in the Lesbian Chronicles, but I was writing them off as merely not relevant to me because I didn't see the coherent picture they were building toward. Reading the recent discussions of comphet on here helped me recast what I had observed in this new light. I did not make the connection to TRA and gender identity ideology but I did recognize that r/LBL is fully on board the gender train and there is encouragement of trans-identified males there coming out as late bloomer lesbians and discussing their experience with comphet, though those posts should peak any actual late bloomer lesbians fa real.

                      That being said, I’ve noticed patterns in the most confused people on LBL. They are also suffering from some kind of identity issue or lack of agency: many of them are autistic, stay-at-home moms, and some have a poor sense of self resulting from a variety of sources including borderline personality disorder, trauma, abuse, etc. The subreddit and Lesbian Chroniclse are overwhelmingly about the positives and how much better their lives are now once they’ve moved on. But you see so many women not moving on and willingly keeping their male partners, and it should be a red flag for them that’s something off in their identity.

                      Also, as an aside, I don’t think I’ve seen you post anything that is a red flag that you’re not a lesbian. I think you just fit the profile of an actual LBL.

                      [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      Thank you so much for sharing!!! That helped a ton to read! I agree, I do think we are coming from the same place. I accidentally wrote a novel in response as well it looks like, sorry lol. Also, RIP you and your conventionally all-American attractive classmate, haha.

                      I couldn't join in sharing my "celebrity girl crush" because literally all of my actual celebrity "crushes" were women.

                      Made me laugh, literally so relatable. I remember my friends all talking about Zac Efron from High School Musical and I was fucking watching for Vanessa Hudgens. Lol.

                      In addition to my longstanding attraction to women, I also had a recognizable and longstanding history of trying to be attracted to men and just not and settling for not attraction but companionship/admiration/respect in my one and only male partner and the comfort of finally having a stable family (his). I never had anything resembling a boy crazy phase. I have also received a lot of male attention in my life, so it's not like I didn't have options. It just never felt right and it felt like there was a wall between men and myself. I never knew what to do with male attention and I honestly hated the idea of men looking at my body.

                      Omg, I relate to this SO much. I could've written this. I've been asked out by a bunch of different guys over the years, not one of whom I felt an iota of attraction towards and I just assumed that the intensity of feelings people describe about their relationships, was just majorly exaggerated and made up by, like, Disney or whatever to sell movies. The only thing I knew about my ex-boyfriend: at the beginning of the relationship, I remember feeling uneasy, because I knew that I wasn't feeling exactly what he was feeling towards me. But he always claimed he was "the romantic type" and "very emotional", so I just wrote it off as that. I knew that I felt safe around him-- and I finally decided that that was enough, and I was just overthinking it. I even brought it up to him several times, and he always told me I was overthinking it. Lol. (I should've just broken up with him, but I had zero sense of boundaries and didn't realize that you were allowed to break up with someone for whatever reason you want. I thought breaking up would make me a bad person, because he seemed so happy, and it seemed like a healthier relationship than all the other ones I knew of, like my parents'-- which is true sadly, lol.)

                      I can confirm that when I posted there I got some responses from women who were questioning whether they were lesbians and going on about how much they were not into men, did not enjoy actual or the idea of sex with men, had severe mental health issues, but did not mention attraction toward women, which is kind of crazy. I thought we all ended up there because we were head over heels for women?

                      Whoaaaa, that's crazy. Yeah, exactly!! Like, that's the whole point?? I would not be doing this if it weren't for all the joy of adoring girls, that I've had over the years. How could you not talk about that haha? Wow.. I had no idea there was like, all those people thinking like that. That's super concerning. I had heard of latebloomerlesbians before but never looked at it.

                      I don't know about you, but for me, a big part of the problem was not allowing myself to consider my sexual orientation. I knew I wasn't straight since I was in high school but I never adopted a label. I didn't want to figure out the parameters. I didn't want to add complication to my life. I came from a toxic home life and wanted stability.

                      Also super, super relatable. My religious family members were a large part of the reason, for me, that I didn't allow myself to consider whether I was not straight. Unlike you, I was lucky enough to have a few online tests around. I discovered the Kinsey-style online tests when I was just entering high school, took them and admitted to the most minimum of attractions to women that I felt and got like a 2 on the Kinsey scale. LOL. I remember telling a friend that I was "technically a bisexual". Then I somehow just.. forgot about it entirely? Tried to bury it? I started hearing more from my mother in middle school about how lesbians are all "mean and aggressive and btchy" and stuff, and I think that might've been part of it. I started also being asked out by guys and the idea of dating girls had never even come into my mind at that point. It only surfaced later when I was like 17-18 and mentioned it to my then-current boyfriend, and he was like "Oh that's okay if you're bisexual, you don't have to do anything about it, because we'll be together forever, it doesn't bother me" and I just felt *sick. I didn't want to not date women. Anyway lol.

                      I think if a woman is actively trying to figure out her sexuality over a very long period of time and without any action or interest in action, then it's highly unlikely she's a lesbian.

                      Okay, see.. that genuinely confuses me. That people are saying that, I mean. Like... how could you even wonder if you are a lesbian, if you're not even interested in trying to date a girl? These people must be truly confused. You mentioned trauma being a factor. I could definitely see how a lot of straight women might have stuff to work out in therapy about how they feel about men. And, I feel for them, being attracted to a demographic that has probably disproportionately hurt them.

                      The attitude of "if you are even questioning this, you are" is especially yikes for them.

                      1000% agree. The same as, "If you're even questioning that you're trans, then you're trans." That's bullshit. We're not even allowed to consider an idiot without committing to it? Okay, yeah now I really see why people on this sub are so cautious about the comphet doc. This is all food for thought.

                      "I bet the trans cult would love to replace us Stepford Wives style with these indoctrinated, "you can be whatever you want to be" and "you are who you say you are" malleable "lesbians.""

                      Whoaaa.. I didn't even think of it that way. Do you really think the TRA ideology is connected to this pressuring type of "comphet" stuff, or at least how people are using the word "comphet" today?

                      There is even denial that most women are heterosexual and propagation of the idea that heterosexuality comes from the patriarchy as to all women.

                      Okay lol, I don't know about that. I am someone who believes the proportion of LGB is underestimated and I don't think it is by that much.

                      Oh and JFC here is this gem from r/LBL that is making a mockery of being a late-bloomer lesbian and that master doc. I'm peaking all over again. This might be worthy of a post to LGBDropTheT.

                      Omg, that link. Well, their first problem is that they are not F/F, they are a female and a male in a relationship.. I don't know why a trans person with dysphoria would "feel pressured to use his dick" but. Them saying "there is a special kind of comphet for trans" like, no. What does "queer sex" mean anyway? How would sex be any different if you didn't have the different body parts? Queer is not just a state of mind. I would think it is from reading that, it's bewildering.

                      Okay actually-- I think I might post, either to here or to s/LGBDropTheT. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciate it. It seems like this is an important conversation to be had-- but "comphet" is being wildly misused, and/or was at risk of being misused anyway. I am probably not going to recommend that comphet doc to anyone anymore, it seems too risky if they actually have no attraction to women.

                      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                      Read the bullet point lists that talk about attraction to men and relationships with men, etc. Those are easily the most misleading parts. I don’t think it’s intentional conversion, I think it’s trying to see lesbian in feelings about men. You can’t find lesbian in how you feel about men. It seemed like a document of someone trying really hard to not be into men.

                      It was a lot of manifestations of actual forms of attraction to men, then debunked by some twisted logic. If you’re a woman and you are into a lot of guys and gets lots of feelings over them, even if the sex isn’t that great, you’re probably not a lesbian. That’s a fairly simple conclusion. I think the person who wrote the list had a lot more issues than her orientation, because wow.

                      But a document like that could really screw over a bi woman. If you’re a lesbian you WILL get there. It will happen. Like you said, based on real experiences you will have. But it’s gotta be damn confusing to women who are attracted to both. I have been around a while and I’ve been seeing a lot of women who are not lesbians calling themselves lesbians and then getting grief over it, and this document, and ones like it, are going to cause a lot more of that.

                      [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                      I agree that there are more problems in the document; I just picked a few as examples. I would find a breakdown of the whole document interesting, and maybe it is worth making a post about it.

                      What I am concerned about is that a blanket dismissal of "comphet" might be used as an argument by TRAs to dissuade other lesbians from joining this community. "Look! They're terfs AND they think the amazing comphet masterdoc is evil!" Do you know of any ways we could try to be welcoming to people who might have some mistaken beliefs? (I have little experience posting on either reddit or saidit, I'm not sure how stickying or anything like that works.)

                      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                      Also: I think lesbians don’t blanket dismiss comphet, just in women who have had loads of sex with men and were married and had kids etc etc etc for years and years and suddenly think they are lesbians. That is suspicious to anyone, and most of us are likely to think those women are not lesbians. But it’s largely irrelevant to the actual women who know how they feel in their own lives, apart from Internet people being mean, and maybe women being hesitant to date them. But in the end, if you’re a lesbian and you’re cool to be around, you’ll find someone. You’re the only one who knows the truth for yourself anyway.

                      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      Not really. Lesbians are not particularly welcoming to people who have a lot of TRA-leaning ideas around sexual orientation, and honestly the comphet masterdoc is a deeply TRA sounding thing, even if the original idea of comphet is radfem. I believe in comphet, it definitely gave me gender dysphoria for around 12 years when we didn’t even have language for it, but that doc is just harmful to women long term. The lesbians will be fine because once they start lesbianing they will be glad regardless, but everyone else is going to be not-fine if that’s what they are using to understand their sexual orientation. In my opinion, only. Which is also not word of law. I honestly worry most about bisexuals when I read it.

                      I’m not sure how to make things easier for confused lesbians and newer lesbians, other than to say it’s not your fault things are bullshit right now and I hope people go easy on you. I know lots of women, myself included, are sick of that comphet doc making attraction to men the way to define one’s lesbianism instead of actually being about attraction to women. The whole damn thing should be about WOMEN and now to recognize same-sex attraction instead of being about how to tell if men are gross. Lol. Straight and bi women think men are gross half the time, but still manage to love them.

                      Edit: I don’t want to refute the comphet doc point for point or anything because then it will just be biased in a different way. Some women will relate to parts of it, of course, and those women are lesbians too. It’s not that no one can relate to any of it and be a lesbian, it’s that straight and bi women also likely relate to a huge amount of it as well, so it’s not really effective.

                      Editx2: TRAs hate us, it doesn’t matter what we do. If women are lesbians they will eventually seek lesbian only spaces no matter what tras say. I wish we seemed more welcoming for those women, maybe things will calm down at some point, I hope

                      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      Gender feelings is one of the only relevant ones for me, and they don’t devote much time on that. I had hardcore dysphoria for years because of being a lesbian, but it really plays second fiddle next to all of the “man attractions that are not real” things. Gender dysphoria is one of the main ways we actually lose lesbians.

                      [–][deleted]  (5 children)

                      [deleted]

                        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                        Some women don’t realise it as easily as some of us do, and reading that document is going to cause a lot of women to strongly assume they are lesbians (when they might be bi, I think bisexuals will suffer the most from the masterlist, and women from cult-like religious environments that are pushing heterosexuality on everyone. Women from rigid rules environments are more likely to adopt another rigid belief system strongly and ignore reality). If you know then you know. I was lucky to know as well. But if I had read some big list like that it would make so much confusion in my head I might miss my body’s cues. You have to feel it and notice it, in the body. And put it together. I am concerned about this document in the same way I am concerned about the trans related lists. They take experience of oneself out of the real world and weave random things into lesbianism or transgender. It’s dangerous.

                        Most people are expected to adopt heterosexuals lives because most people are straight. Gay men are also under pressure, so are bisexuals.

                        What if a woman with a low sex drive reads that list? Or a woman who is autistic? Or someone with a shifting sense of self that feels different but can’t place it yet? The list basically assigns “not straight” to things that are whatever. It’s just really good to keep that in mind. Lots of bi women, especially, are going to be led to believe they are lesbians and then get shunned when they are not. That happens when documents like this circulate

                        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                        [deleted]

                          [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                          Don’t read it. Lol. It’s insane. Almost all items or scenarios on the lists could be experienced by any woman, of any orientation, for multiple reasons.

                          [–]7of99 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                          the only true way to figure it out is by living in your real body, in your real life, having real sexual experiences

                          Sounds like this includes fantasy/masturbation. Which yeah not every fantasy is something you want to enact irl, but barring some weird extreme fetish, the sex/es you fantasize about having sex with is a solid indication of sexual attraction and is discovered through being in tune with your body. After all, you can think about a sexual scenario, but if you don't experience sexual arousal thinking about it, that's not an indication of your sexual orientation or whether it's a sexual fantasy of yours. So it's not purely mental, you have to have that exploration/connection with your body.

                          [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                          Yeah but apparently lots of lesbians watch male/male porn, straight porn, read male/male comics, fantasize about being degraded and humiliated by men, and are still “lesbians” so I don’t know if thinking thoughts in the head is super accurate compared to actually being near someone you want

                          [–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                          Okay, I am gonna push back on that lol, though full disclosure, I am probably what you describe as a "comphet lesbian". I relate a ton to the whole idea of compulsory heterosexuality; it very much describes my own experience, anyway.

                          I think our stock is also loaded up with a lot of "comphet" lesbians. That has to be exceptionally rare

                          There is evidence to suggest that it's not rare at all. Lesbians (and bi women) have the highest average age of coming out. This study, for example, found gay men come out at 14-15 and lesbians come out at 17-18 (group averages). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5042327/#!po=1.51515 table https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5042327/table/T2/?report=objectonly

                          And, lesbians have the highest average age of "when did you first question your sexuality": https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/06/13/chapter-3-the-coming-out-experience/

                          I haven't looked for any research on comphet as the reason for that pattern, but it is a well-studied pattern.

                          I think most so called "late bloomers" have actually always known they have been sexually attracted to women... I don't think these cases where a woman supposedly had no idea she was attracted to women are nearly as common as they crop up in our spaces.

                          Okay, so here's the thing. If you'd asked me, like, two years ago or so, when the first time I questioned my sexuality was-- I would've told you 19. But if you ask me now-- I know that it was actually like 5-6 years old lol, because I remember it now. I am inclined to believe that some of the late bloomers who just realized they're late bloomers, haven't yet processed all their childhood experiences. I know that for me, abuse was a large part of why I avoided most of my childhood memories for so long, including those ones. And-- a higher proportion of lesbians are GNC, and GNC children are at a higher risk of abuse, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was a factor with a lot of people.

                          They're probably bisexuals who have had their inclination shifted towards women

                          I guess I don't really get the whole "bicycle" thing or whatever, so I'm not sure how that plays in.

                          Another theory of mine, especially of the really q*eer "lesbians," is they are just doing it to impress men.

                          Yeahhhh, there is probably some of this going on, unfortunately.

                          [–]a_blue_bird 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

                          I haven't looked for any research on comphet as the reason for that pattern

                          So why are you claiming that ''research shows comphet is not rare at all!''? It shows no such thing.

                          [–]7of99 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                          The difference in average age of coming out probably has more to do with sex differences. For biological and social reasons, girls are on average less focused on their sex drives than boys. Girls also are overrepresented among those identifying as demi/asexual, report later ages of first masturbation, tend to be more focused on emotional aspects of relationships than boys. Boys discovering their sexuality is greeted with "yup that's a teenage boy" while girls discovering their sexuality is often dismissed as frivolous crushes or seen as shameful/slutty.

                          And since girls tend to care more about emotional aspects of romantic relationships than boys and are frequently told that girls are less superficial or it's all about the emotions for us, I think young girls are more likely to misinterpret a strong platonic bond or a strong admiration for a boy/man as a crush, because she expects that one day those feelings will happen. As a preteen I misinterpreted my friendship with a boy who was one of the rare kids on a similar wavelength as me as being a crush. Really I was just excited that for the first time I finally had someone I could legitimately relate to as a friend.

                          I never had anything like a male celebrity crush, though sometimes I would see a men's fashion catalog and think "damn, he's finely dressed, I wish I looked like that" and interpreted that as sexual attraction. Really I just wanted to dress in a masculine fashion but was already mercilessly ridiculed by peers and did not want to stand out any more than I already did. By then I thought I was bisexual with a strong preference for girls, because I had/have a strong libido and from a young age there was no denying that I was into girls.

                          So I get that it's not like lesbians are all completely sure they like girls and don't like boys from a young age. But there is a difference between naming some random man as your crush because you've heard girls say he's hot versus gushing and squealing over various guys over time. Unless she's making a very conscious effort to play a role, aware she's gay or bi or asexual and deliberately trying to throw people off the scent, a lesbian isn't going to act like that.

                          Similarly, social pressures can lead a lesbian to date or even marry a man, if they are strong enough. But it's not going to fool a lesbian into liking sex with a man or to experience attraction to men, whether they're celebrities or guys she knows. It's not going to cause a lesbian to sleep with a guy because she's lonely or hasn't had sex. I didn't have sex for a decade as an adult due to various reasons including being closeted and not socializing, but not once would I have considered fucking a man. And I have a crazy high libido. Because that would be traumatic and adding trauma doesn't do anything to help desperation. I see how it could be possible for lesbians who were sexually abused and think their aversion to men is just a sign of damage from the abuse and try to conversion therapy themselves (although even IF a woman only experiences an aversion to sex with men due to abuse and is really heterosexual or bisexual, it's still bad to subject yourself to any sex you don't want). But that's very different from "i'm totes a lesbian but man when i'm horny i just got to hit up tinder and get that D because hey i'm lonely and have needs and it's just meaningless sex, i'm not really attracted to them just using them as a dildo because it's basically the same" that you bizarrely see so often.

                          [–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                          That's a fair question. I phrased my statement poorly, let me clarify:

                          I mentioned to another commenter-- my understanding, was that comphet = internalized misogyny specifically for lesbians, or I guess you could say, internalized lesbophobia. The reason why I talk about comphet with this definition, is because that is how it is used colloquially today whenever I have seen it online or in discussions.

                          I can find research papers that talk about the ill effects of misogyny on lesbians. I have not seen actual studies (as opposed to academic opinion pieces) that specifically use the word comphet. That is probably because, I am guessing, in academia they are still going by Adrienne Rich's original definition, which seems to differ from how I am using it and how many people use it today.

                          If you imagine that saying "comphet, is a thing for lesbians" is the same thing as saying "internalized misogyny unique to lesbians, is a thing for lesbians", then you could understand why I might say that comphet is probably not rare, because internalized misogyny is not rare (imo). I am guessing you have a different definition of what comphet is, however, than I do.

                          When I say "comphet", I am just trying to have a conversation about lesbophobia. However, from reading these comments it sounds like a lot of people here seem to think "comphet" is actually a word for some kind of sick conversion therapy, which surprises me.

                          Does that make more sense? I think it is a miscommunication going on.

                          [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                          I knew at puberty, came out officially at 16; when I look back to childhood there were signs. That’s not late-blooming tho. 16-20 is young but pretty standard for lesbians to realize

                          [–]knownasness 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                          this is literally 80% of my 'friends' and exes. it's infuriating. they were the loudest about being gay too! i don't understand it. i have never felt a single thing for a man and i can say without a doubt i will never find 'an exception'.. i thought i was among other women who were in the same boat, but i was clearly wrong.. it's a large part of why i no longer try to make friends in this community. or date.

                          [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                          The women I’ve known who have done this have generally done it after 30, and later admit they were always attracted to guys here and there but were in denial. And yes, the male celebrity thing is also consistent.

                          I imagine that women exist who didn’t realize they were bi because they didn’t spend much time around men for years, especially if they were always in relationships with women or in school where they choose their daily encounters more than not, but those women are a minority within a minority, I imagine.

                          But who knows. It’s better they found someone, in the end.

                          [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                          🧐 I’ve seen many of these bisexuals 🧐.

                          [–]WildwoodFlower 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                          Ten years ago, I almost went back to an old boyfriend from high school who contacted me via Facebook. I wasn't interested in sleeping with him. I wasn't even interested in sleeping with him back in the day. But I was at a very low point in my life. The Great Recession had kicked me in the ass. I had been ill with H1N1, followed by the worst stomach flu ever, followed by a bad cold. My weight was down to about 90 pounds. I looked and felt horrible, made worse by the fact that I was well aware that I needed to see a doctor, but couldn't afford it. So when this old flame started hanging around my FB page and then expressed an interest in giving it another go, I was very tempted. This was the only positive attention I was getting from anyone, anywhere. It felt good to know that someone wanted me, even if it was the guy who treated me like crap in the 80s. I also liked the idea of having someone to go out and have fun with. I wanted something else in my life besides being broke and sick. Sure, I would have preferred to have my dream woman show up and sweep me off my feet and carry me off into the sunset, but I knew that wasn't going to happen. I figured I'd better take what I could actually get instead of looking for someone I would probably never find.

                          I didn't end up going out with that guy. But I can understand how a lesbian in a similar low point in life could decide to go down that path. People do get lonely and desperate.

                          [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                          [deleted]

                            [–]WildwoodFlower 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                            For me, it wasn't about sex. I had no sex drive at that time because I'd been so sick. I was probably also clinically depressed, although I'll never know for sure because I could not afford medical care then. I just wanted someone to talk to, someone who would take me places. This guy and I had a lot of similar interests when we were young (especially our taste in music), so I was remembering what that felt like. The idea of having that kind of connection with somebody appealed to me. My other friends had problems of their own, so I wasn't seeing them much. Some of my family members were going through an even worse recession experience, so I wasn't getting much support from anyone on that front. There was no "room" for my problems in my family at that time.

                            I think what I really wanted back then was just an escape from it all, and this guy was offering me that.

                            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                            [deleted]

                              [–]WildwoodFlower 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                              I'm glad I didn't go through with it, too. He stopped posting on FB about six months after he asked me out. I later heard through the grapevine that he was an alcoholic and had gone off on a bender.

                              I am doing better now, thanks. My love life is still weird, but this time it's because of a "straight" woman. Like the aforementioned male, she is a genius when it comes to knowing how to push my buttons and mess with my head.

                              [–]a_blue_bird 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

                              Well, I know of quite a few bisexual but female-leaning women who call themselves lesbians, and only date women by choice. They are one group of people for whom I think it would be easier to tell everyone that they met their one male exception, and not that they've been bisexual all along, just lied about being lesbians. Basically I'd expect most of these women to be identifying as lesbians for a reason different than being exclusively same-sex attracted.

                              [–][deleted]  (13 children)

                              [deleted]

                                [–]a_blue_bird 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (12 children)

                                What do they think they are going to gain from calling themselves lesbians?

                                Their complaint is that lesbians won't date bisexuals, so they can't call themselves bi.

                                [–]Astrid2448[S] 25 insightful - 2 fun25 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                                You know, whether or not someone has a bigoted reason for not wanting to date you, lying about yourself to gain access to someone who wouldn't otherwise want you is always a shitty move

                                [–]oofreesouloo 20 insightful - 9 fun20 insightful - 8 fun21 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

                                That's why "transbians" and these "bi lesbians" get along with each other so well lmao

                                [–][deleted]  (8 children)

                                [deleted]

                                  [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

                                  My friend said bisexuals DO date other bisexuals, I don’t see it though. The bisexuals I am currently connected to are all married to lesbians, or men. But never bisexuals. I don’t think I’ve ever met bi women together.

                                  [–]Ricky_Ticky 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                                  I noticed that too and I was wondering why is it like that. I bet bi women can't stand seeing their partners going through "bi cycle", even though they demand understanding for it from lesbians and het men.

                                  [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                  It reads to me like “bored of sex with my partner and want a new partner who is different” but make it “bi”

                                  I don’t think it happens to all bisexuals anyway, but I’ve heard it spoken about and seen women discussing it in mixed LGBT spaces, so it must be a thing a good amount of bisexual ppl relate to.

                                  [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

                                  I've definitely seen bi women dating each other. Also, I'm not sure if this counts really but when I identified as bisexual I dated a bisexual woman. But I don't anymore so I guess that's a bad example lol.

                                  [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                                  Why not now?

                                  I date bi women if I like them. I’ve had some horrible experiences with them, but I am much better at choosing people in general now. I would like to find another lesbian tho, at this point.

                                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                                  [deleted]

                                    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                                    I just meant why don’t you date bisexuals

                                    [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                    Oh haha, sorry I misunderstood you. Makes more sense lol, I was kind of surprised.

                                    I would date a bisexual. But I am no longer a bisexual who dates bisexuals, is what I meant.

                                    edit: I might delete that longer comment, that was probably too much.

                                    [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                    Being a liar is a good way to secure a mate. LOLL. I dated a woman who did exactly this and holy shit was her past ever full of horrible choices. If only I had known earlier. But people like this don’t care about the one they date, they care about themselves. She was literally the worst partner I’ve had and the one who left me with the most issues to work through.

                                    [–]VioletRemi 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

                                    In todays world word "lesbian" is tainted by pronography and transgender activists. Even when two straight women will kiss it will be called "lesbianism", or when transvestite or drag queen will date a women, everyone will call them "lesbians" (and transvestites I know are really pissed with that, but if they try speak out - they being cancelled).

                                    This means that "lesbian" is just a new "cool thing", promoted by porn (I believe it was most viewed tag on pornhub few years in a row by men, or something like that; and lesbianism in porn is often "two women have sex and then in the end man appeared and finished them", at least when I checked recently).

                                    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                    This is usually the case. It’s not exclusive same -sex attraction as much as aversion to men for reasons.

                                    [–]Liz-B-Anne 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                                    Sexuality is a spectrum and I suspect those people aren't actually the lesbians they fancy themselves as. Yet they INSIST on calling themselves that even after finding their "exceptional man" lol gag. You soil the concept & bastardize the English (or whatever) language by doing so, plus you're just showing off your blatant denial which isn't healthy. It's like a man calling himself a woman or vice versa--it ain't a thing.

                                    [–]Gacho666 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                    There is something I don't quite understand perhaps because my mother tongue is not English, my question is why you consider the fact that you find someone attractive (I understand it as a person who looks good or is pretty) to mean that you like them sexually.

                                    In the case of men it is very difficult for them to accept or say when another man is attractive, with women it is not so we are a little more open to say when another woman seems attractive, but because the fact that someone seems attractive to you has to do with the sexual? it is only an aesthetic appreciation (in my opinion) or the fact that I say that someone seems attractive to me already means that I am attracted sexually? I see that mistake made by many women who say they are bi, they believe that because a woman seems pretty to you you are already bi, when I think it is to be like straight or les, it is not only that a person is pretty but also that there is sexual desire and attraction. I cannot say that a person is attractive because they would already question my sexual orientation for that? because for me that opinion would have nothing to do with me being sexually attracted.

                                    And I understand that this post touches on something deeper, in that respect I would like to give my opinion about my experience and it's that of course if you found that guy who has a nice personality there would obviously be compatibility problems, something that in my case has not happened men have been so insistent with me (which I find unpleasant) that I think: if I was straight would I go out with them?(that's what they assume because they think women are like a counter waiting for them to pick us out) and I definitely came to the conclusion that I wouldn't go out with them even if I were straight or if they were women I wouldn't either because they have that nasty personality and I wouldn't go out with a girl like that I like confident but not arrogant women. And what he says about lesbians on the internet is true ... the truth is that many are just bi, people still don't seem to understand what sexual orientation is and that it is something that goes beyond physical attraction.