What is up with "lesbians" who meet their exception?

submitted by Astrid2448 from self.Lesbians

I believe that this genuinely happens on occasion. Maybe there are a handful of women who genuinely have never felt attracted to a single man in their life and suddenly meet the one guy who is their type. But it seems like there are A LOT of women who claim this is what happened to them, to where I don't really believe it.

If you like women EXCLUSIVELY, isn't there a fundamental physical incompatibility? Even if you thought some guy had a nice personality, his body would make it impossible for it to work. You'd be like "Darn, this person has everything I'm looking for, but they're a man. If only they were a woman."

To me it sounds like saying you fell in love with a 14 year old because you "liked their personality" and looked past their age, and then saying you really aren't a pedo. Like... sure, you totally slept with this 14 year old because of their personality. Sure, you totally looked past it when you asked this 14 year old to marry you. While anyone who wasn't a pedo would've been immediately put off by their body, because their fundamental attraction doesn't include that.

I'm very suspicious that a lot of these women did find men attractive, but kept it under wraps until they ended up in a serious relationship with one. Hell, I've even confirmed this a lot of times by going to the Reddit accounts of "lesbians" who say they fell in love with a man and finding... you guessed it... pages and pages of them drooling over male actors, talking about how sometimes they find men attractive, saying sexuality is fluid, or even sleeping with men years prior to when they "discovered their exception". It's almost like they WANT to be a lesbian more than they actually are one, which is really strange to me as someone who thinks being a lesbian is often a pain.

Thoughts?

top 100 commentsshow all 153
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]Ricky_Ticky 53 insightful - 2 fun53 insightful - 1 fun54 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I have many straight women friends who call themselves bisexuals even though their only bi experience was kissing a few girls at parties. What they really mean when saying "I am bi" is that they are "open-minded, modern and tolerant".

I also have bi friends who are fascinated by how intrigued people look at them when they say they are "lesbians". They like the idea of belonging to such a hidden, mysterious and unavailable to men group.

As a result lesbians are not being taken seriously and people think "well if a guy says he is gay it's irreversible but for a girl things can change". If I explain it to my straight/bi friends they are surprised big time, they were not aware of it and they stop throwing "lesbian" and "bi" labels where they do not belong. So I guess we have to educate, nobody is going to understand our struggles if we do not explain them.

Once "women with exceptions" understand that wanting to have it both ways actually hurt real lesbians, they are fine calling themselves just bisexuals

[–]Astrid2448[S] 34 insightful - 2 fun34 insightful - 1 fun35 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

I think you really hit the nail on the head. You're right, it's much more about image than reality. Unlike you, though, I've found that a lot of these girls aren't interested in hearing about whether this hurts other people. They get enraged if you even suggest anything other than them being valid.

[–]oofreesouloo 27 insightful - 2 fun27 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

THIS THIS THIS. Usually people who do this can't care less. They're really self absorbed and I despise these bisexual women. I've tried explaining this to a bisexual women who calls herself 'lesbian' she got REALLY defensive and couldn't care sh*t about my concerns lmao.

[–]Ricky_Ticky 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Some women are very selfish, nothing we can do about it. But maybe some day they'll grow up.

It's also human to think how you feel is how everybody feels. Many lesbians share a similar story - when they noticed they like girls, they thought all women are like that. It's just the society that forces women to marry men but in fact all women like women.

So probably "lesbians with exceptions" think that every lesbian prefers girls but develops feelings for men as a "regular exception". And that is what being a lesbian is like.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've heard them say that lots of lesbians must like men instead of accepting that they just aren't a lesbian. But that is a very homophobic thing to do. I would care less about this if they werent doing this in such large numbers and throwing actual lesbians out for even questioning it.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I think they don’t want to lose their whole community because they were dishonest about something, or genuinely didn’t think they would be into males that are not “celebrities,” it still sucks for lesbians because we are considered fictional even more every time a woman finds her dick, lol. But I think they probably feel ashamed so just double down.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 21 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

But bi women are welcome in almost all lesbian communities. Hell, they are even the majority in most cases.

[–][deleted] 25 insightful - 2 fun25 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

They are, but lots of bi women are the type that are not welcome. Mostly the ones that include their straight boyfriends in everything and bring him to gay events. Lol. This used to be the main problem lesbians and bisexuals fought over. In those simple days. I mean gay events specifically. How many lesbians feel like seeing places filled with heterosexual pairings? Our venues are small enough. Lol. My friend brought her boyfriend and he was FILMIMG. Lololol. So there were definitely many tensions over that shit.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That's just tact though, that's not about being bisexual. There's plenty of bi women who aren't that socially unaware that they drag their boyfriend to a lesbian panel and force everyone to center them

[–][deleted] 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The tactless ones caused a real problem for the genuine ones, but lesbians always took the blame. Just like the Katy Perry “kissed a girl” bisexuals are tactless, or the women who call themselves bi and only have threesomes, or women who think Cate Blanchet is hot but would probably not date women. Lesbians seem to take a lot of blame for being mistrustful when the “bisexual umbrella” is full of so many women who don’t take women seriously, and you literally rarely see bisexuals calling this out. I think people should clean up their own house before claiming lesbians are phobic as if we have no reason to be.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree with you, I just think that none of this changes that for example, in places like actuallesbians there are like 10 bi women for every 1 lesbian. I don’t see how pretending to be a lesbian in places like this (which is the way most lesbian spaces are now) has anything to do with pleasing lesbians when the girls in this space are mostly speaking to bi and trans women. We often don’t even run our own spaces, leadership is usually also bisexual. And then there’s real life where these girls are usually telling straight people (especially straight men) that they’re lesbians.

[–][deleted] 32 insightful - 1 fun32 insightful - 0 fun33 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We were too inclusive of people who have very little empathy for us. That’s how we got here, or at least contributed. The reality is, being a woman who is exclusively same-sex attracted is a very specific experience of the world, and the only bisexual women who understand this are those who have been in long term relationships with women, and spent a long time in the community, not in their heads about attraction to women. And those are the women who have a hard time letting go of their view of themselves as lesbians because it has literally informed huge portions of their life experiences. Being part of that. I feel bad for them, for that reason. It must be really hard. But I feel less bad for them when they keep using “lesbian,” and little compassion for women who use it without even knowing what it actually is. Many bi women who are lifers in the LGB community are really upset about this stuff too, especially seeing so many women who are intent on erasing lesbians and bi women at the same time

Edit: I guess we have had to start being the “mean dykes” they think we are by setting boundaries, but what the fuck else are we supposed to do when we are unwelcome in our own spaces? They helped create this but still need to play victim

[–]LesbianInExile 28 insightful - 2 fun28 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I find it weird when bi (or straight) women like the label lesbian and feels it makes them interesting or more appealing. I presume it only has those benefits if you are actually into guys so don't actually get a lot of the shit or internalised lesbophobia that lesbians often have to deal with. I have struggled to use the word lesbian to describe myself (using gay instead or just referring to dating or liking women - or just keeping my mouth shut - rather than saying the word lesbian) but they want the word I guess because it doesn't come with the same baggage for them.

If a woman genuinely believed she was a lesbian but later in life met a guy she fell in love with (if that does really happen?) then I can understand that she would have had a lot of the same experiences as actual lesbians growing up and maybe wouldn't relate to other bi women as much - but obviously if she is in love with and dating a man she is bisexual - just a bi woman whose experienced a different path in life.

load more comments (2 replies)

    [–]Gearbeta 33 insightful - 2 fun33 insightful - 1 fun34 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    Most likely answer is that they are bisexuals who are lying about their sexuality. I could believe the exception story except it seems to happen a lot around ages 25-30.

    [–]Astrid2448[S] 20 insightful - 9 fun20 insightful - 8 fun21 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

    And mysteriously, the one guy who they liked in the entire world, over the course of their entire life, happened to like them back, and like them enough that they got married. Sure.

    [–][deleted] 14 insightful - 11 fun14 insightful - 10 fun15 insightful - 11 fun -  (0 children)

    Lugs with baby fever. Lol. Every time

    [–]VioletRemi 30 insightful - 7 fun30 insightful - 6 fun31 insightful - 7 fun -  (11 children)

    Many bisexual people are calling themselves lesbians (or gay), if they are prefering same sex more than opposite sex (I wonder if it is they who invented this stupid "sexuality is fluid" thing) or it is "political lesbians", who are often straight. I tried relationship with one once, and I clearly saw that she was not really liking to be in relationship with women, and she was feeling something like "and i will be doing 'this' until those men apologize to me or until i find my perfect prince".

    You should not call any of them lesbians, as they just aren't. If we will call everyone who calling themselves lesbians, then those guys with beards and penises who claiming to be lesbians in dating app will be lesbians too. And that is just ridiculous!

    [–]Ricky_Ticky 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

    Maybe the problem could have been solved if there was a clear distinction between sexual and romantic attractions. Some people are sexually exclusively attracted to their own gender while romantically they might as well like the oposite gender.

    If a girl is wired like that, theoretically she has all the rights to call herself a lesbian. Sexually she is only into women and being lesbian is a sexual orientation. But for "real" lesbians she is bi and it would be unfair to make us think otherwise.

    [–]oofreesouloo 34 insightful - 4 fun34 insightful - 3 fun35 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

    Omg, for me the split attraction model only makes sense to assexuals. This biromantic thing makes no sense to me. A deep connection platonically without any sexual component with it already has a name - friendship. Literally everyone in the world, unless you're a psychopath or have clearly some mental issues, is theoretically capable of connecting emotionally with anyone, regardless of the sex.

    [–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    It makes a lot of sense when describing asexuals for sure, but for us a relationship without sexual attraction potential would be a close friendship.

    [–]yousaythosethings 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I had a moment where I thought the split attraction model made sense for non-asexuals and then realized that it causes more confusion than anything and causes people to not dig into their own feelings. I had a mental block around being in a relationship with a woman because I didn’t know what that looked like. I had no examples. As soon as I saw it up close in real life, a switch was flipped and I realized that that was what I wanted some day. Suddenly I could picture it happening. The problem was lack of female-female relationship representation and that even women are taught not to take other women seriously.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

    See that's exactly what I've wondered about the "romantic" vs sexual attraction model! People are like, "I'm only romantically attracted to this sex" and I'm like, I must not be romantic at all lol because it just seems like friendship to me.

    This is my trouble with asexuals who are "sexual but not romantic" (that is literally an oxymoron..). If someone is heterosexual but just doesn't want a romantic relationship, how the fuck do they relate to they asexual community? Isn't that like, bad for asexuals because people could be like "Oh, so they say they're not into sex but actually they might be. You just have to find the right one." ?

    [–]VioletRemi 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    Well, she still will not find "that one prince" and marry him, if she is only romantically attracted to men.

    For the reasons of society pressure and me being homeless - I married a man when was 18, and he was amazing person, but nothing was happening in bed, and even on cool romantic dates I felt more about the surroundings and atmosphere, than about person I was on date with. So I ended up thinking I am frigid or "broken". And even I really liked him as a person, nothing really romantic or sexual was happening. This means that if woman will be into romantic or marry and be happy with man - she was just bisexual all along and had feelings for men, just never found good man to really relate with.

    [–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Romantic attraction without physical is called “friendship” lol. Usually we like our partners as friends and sexually.

    [–]carrotcake 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I feel that sometimes lesbians use this split attraction model when they don't want to recognize that they are actually lesbians - because they are "biromantic". Maybe more like internalized homophobia?

    It's weird seeing straight women that only say "boyfriend/husband" when talking about hypothetical partners calling themselves bisexual, people that are bisexual calling themselves lesbians and actual lesbians failing to recognize that they are lesbians.

    load more comments (1 reply)

      [–]oofreesouloo 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      As a lesbian, I have the same opinion as you. It seems like being a lesbian is this super cool thing and a VIP club, yet the actual lesbians aren't never allowed to get in and being an actual lesbian, more often than not, sucks lmao.

      These women are straight up bisexual women. They don't fool me. I don't know why, but many bisexual women seem to be obsessed with being seen and trying to be 'lesbians' wtf

      [–]hufflepuff-poet 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

      I feel like these women are probably bisexual. but when you're a woman attracted to women and men, women are more attractive partners because so few men have actual decent personalities, so they have dated more women and finally found a guy with a half decent personality and instead of questioning if her identity matches her actual orientation and maybe accepting her bisexuality, she doubles down on her lesbianism and exclaims he's an "exception". This hurts lesbians and bisexual women and only benefits men, I hate it.

      [–]Astrid2448[S] 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

      But see for me it isn't even the dating itself. Like let's say there is some girl who thinks men usually have crappy personalities so she has only clicked with women. But she will still naturally know how she feels when she looks at idk Chris Hemsworth in a movie. She will know what she thinks about the idea of a penis. I don't buy that they had NO CLUE at all that they were bisexual, at least not in the vast majority of cases. And as I said, in many cases I have seen that these girls will still claim their husband is the "exception" even though they were sleeping with men a week before they met him.

      [–]Gearbeta 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

      Regarding the penis thing, while I agree that in most of these cases they should know if they're attracted to men or not, a lot, and I mean A LOT of straight women have told me they find penises disgusting. And a lot of straight men find vaginas gross. It was one of the things that confused me before I accepted my sexuality.

      [–][deleted] 20 insightful - 3 fun20 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

      My condolences to their partners if they are actually straight. If a lesbian told me she didn’t like pussy I would be out the door.

      [–]Astrid2448[S] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

      I agree with you that it can be hard to realize you are gay. I don't think this is the same situation though, actually it is the opposite. It is hard to realize you are gay at times because society is heteronormative and you often don't realize that you aren't like the rest of the pack. It can be easy to rationalize what's going on because you don't know many people like yourself and have not been taught to understand those feelings. In many houses, people are even taught to NOT be gay.

      It is another thing entirely to live in a heteronormative society, proclaim yourself to be gay against this society, and then claim to "not notice" that you wanted to suck a penis when the entire world expected and encouraged you to.

      [–]Gearbeta 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      You right. Because I would think wait I'm grossed out by dick but so are a lot of straight girls?? But the difference is that I'm not attracted to men at all whereas straight girls would swoon over men they found cute. Interestingly the straight girls who find dicks gross will almost never claim to be lesbians but bis who admit to loving dick will lie about their sexuality.

      [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

      Or you read that stat that most straight women don’t orgasm from piv sex, or AT ALL in the majority of their sex with men. That would be confusing. But there is no way it would take a tons of guys to figure out you’re a lesbian unless there were other variables involved. Many other variables

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

        It depends on the angle of your clit. Women with an inch or less of space between their vaginal opening and clit are more likely to get off more easily through penetration BECAUSE of internal stimulation of the clit, that is why we angle our fingers upward if she’s on her back. The clit goes back like 6 inches. I can orgasm from pressure on my mons if I am aroused enough. Like, just pressure on the pubic bone. Lots of WOMEN don’t understand their own anatomy or feel comfortable explaining what they need. The world is not focused on female pleasure in reality, just the idea of causing it.

        [–]Gearbeta 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        I've never slept with a man but yeah you're totally right, it was confusing because I'm not attracted to men but the people who were supposed to be attracted to men didn't seem to be in a way that made any logical sense to me at the time.

        [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Yeah, it would be easy to assume attraction was whatever and sex was whatever, but only if you had very little contact with women and no female friends. I wasn’t attracted to men either, but when I did feel attraction it was to women and PRETTY OBVIOUS fairly quickly. Some women experience less attraction in general, to anyone, and also women who have homophobic upbringings or religious families, homophobic countries or cultures would likely have a more complex experience of coming out or even admitting stuff

        [–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        It is another thing entirely to live in a heteronormative society, proclaim yourself to be gay against this society, and then claim to "not notice" that you wanted to suck a penis when the entire world expected and encouraged you to.

        That is a super useful distinction. Thank you for pointing that out!

        [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

        This is the exact same narrative I’ve heard, but it’s honestly from the women who are already into dudes on some level. If they are your friends they eventually admit it. People don’t usually respond well to it. Lol. One of my friends started dating a man and even her family responded poorly. She was such a rah, rah, lesbian! before that and such a man-hater and attacking everyone that it seemed super hypocritical to them after all the drama. She will always be my friend, so whatever, but I think she gets why lesbians get so reflexively stressed out every time this happens. It just makes me feel sad, happy she’s happy, but sad when the pool gets smaller, yikes.

        [–]Astrid2448[S] 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

        As an aside, I think being really anti-men is another red flag for a "lesbian". It makes it seem like they have this laundry list of grievances for why they don't want to be with a guy, like they're staying away with intention. When in my experience actual lesbians (myself included) don't really care enough to hate guys like that. Because us not being interested in a man has nothing to do with whether or not he's a good person

        [–][deleted] 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        I barely even notice guys unless we are buddies and they are cool. My lesbianism has nothing to do with men. If I didn’t have any male friends that I would miss, I could easily move to a lesbian-only planet and be cool with that. Lol. I know lots of good people who are women, men, trans whatever. I avoid extreme man-hating lesbians as surely as I avoid man-loving lesbians, if any lesbian is that preoccupied with men I’m gonna get bored with her eventually. I’ve got many grievances with male social gender roles, and male violence, and other dumb shit mostly involving dudes, don’t get me wrong. But I don’t think women are some pure lifeform either and know lots that would benefit to stop participating in their own oppression.

        [–]Astrid2448[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Yeah, agreed. Sure I have my issues with sexism and stuff but I know plenty of cool dudes. I've got guy friends that are smart, handsome, kind, etc. and they are going to be great boyfriends to somebody. It's just not me and that's cool

        [–]Ricky_Ticky 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

        I always thought the same. I find it kinda normal when straight women complain about men but when lesbians do it... I highly doubt they are lesbians for real

        [–]Astrid2448[S] 18 insightful - 11 fun18 insightful - 10 fun19 insightful - 11 fun -  (8 children)

        There's a line between normal venting like about sexism at work and "men are awful! all they do is lie, cheat, and attack us! i don't even associate with ANY men at all! lesbians RISE UP!!" like maam this is a wendy's

        [–][deleted] 17 insightful - 6 fun17 insightful - 5 fun18 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

        Or my personal fav “I am so happy that I am a lesbian because men men men men men men, and I love women”

        [–]oofreesouloo 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

        I see that one A LOT in actuallesbians. Wonder why lmao.

        [–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        Yeah, performative man-hating to convince the others and themselves they are gay, or actual man hating because of bad men experiences being confused for gay. Occasionally actually gay women actually hate men, but most of us are more likely to be indifferent to men themselves but hate patriarchy and gender roles

        [–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Yeah exactly!! I have seen that one a LOT. Tbh that's part of why I've been confused about my sexuality for so long. Do you guys really think this is a thing? I don't hate men-- though sometimes I wonder why I don't, lol, given the awful stuff I've been through at the hands of men, but I just don't feel the same when I look at any man vs a girl I like. It's just so qualitatively different.

        I will say too, I know AL is largely bisexuals/pansexuals so like, the people ranting about men so often are probably not good representations of "lesbians", they indeed are bisexuals even by their own self-identification.

        [–]Lizzythelezzo 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

        I think half the time it's just MTF trans people saying they hate men, to make them feel more like "real women".

        [–]Ricky_Ticky 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

        Oh yes, so so happy until the next "exception" comes around lol

        [–]7of99 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        That and if a woman says she's a lesbian because her ex-boyfriend(s) never gave her an orgasm BUT she talks about men being "hot" or how she was turned on by them but the sex wasn't fulfilling. Statistically, lots of men are shitty and selfish in bed, so not enjoying sex with particular guys should not be confused with lesbianism (and it's another reason it's not necessary to "try" having sex with someone of a given sex to know whether you're oriented to that sex or not). Swooning over men (genuinely and not intentionally mimicking to fit in) and then saying they are hot but you wouldn't go to bed with them because they are probably shitty in bed is not a lesbian experience. It's fine to be straight or bisexual and choose not to date or have sex with men for whatever reason, but it's not lesbian.

        It sucks because this reinforces the myth that gets applied to lesbians that we only think we are lesbian because the guy(s) we were (assumed to be) with were just shitty lovers. I don't know how common it is but I've known a few girls and young women who have lackluster or bad experiences with guys, "try lesbianism" and then they end up either getting with men again or being extremely vocally anti-men but still talk about how so-and-so is so hot and it's too bad he's one of those awful men. It's distinct from women who become really anti-men due to horrible abuse, and I think anyone who stops and thinks about how prevalent some of these horrific abuses are will get angry from time to time about it, even my straight father, and that's different too, especially when you channel that anger into actual charity work or activism.

        load more comments (13 replies)

          [–]VioletRemi 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

          In my experience, majority of bisexual women (and men) are ending in opposite sex marriages. I saw on youtube few bisexual woman+woman married couples, thought, but never met any in real life or internet. So seems it is happening, just very rarely.

          [–][deleted] 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

          I grew up in a time when being gay, lesbian or bi wasn’t the cool new thing to do. It was a simpler time for sure, and I’m happy I was there. Peoples need for labels and attention have really messed stuff up for those of us who are, in reality, lesbians. It’s been kind of sad watching what was such a tight knit community be infiltrated by people who use it to make themselves feel special. The first big wave I noticed was the girls who claimed to be bi sexual to impress men, I knew it was over from there. Oddly enough this corresponded with the invention of internet porn. And now here we are. Shit has devolved to a point of messy as hell. The idea of a real lesbian having an “exception” makes me want vomit. This has also made me very weary of any one who claims to be bisexual, most of them end up married to men. I have often debated opening a lesbian only community. Unfortunately most of them die out due to lack of support.

          [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

          I remember those women. I remember being so happy more women felt comfortable to come out and then realized they didn’t actually mean it, for the most part. Lots of young lesbians are going to see the majority of the queer/bi/pan for attention women disappear into het partnerships as time goes on and feel pretty bummed out at how few of us there really are

          [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

          I can’t even count the number of time I’ve been called an asshole for telling young fledgling lesbians not to try and get serious about the queer/bi/pan/alphabet soup girl they are infatuated with because she’s going to leave them for a man. I should have a shirt that just says “I told you so” to wear around when they come cry about it a few moths later. I’m just sad that our sense of community is getting stripped away more and more every day.

          [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

          I would not tell the really young women that, personally, because the bi girls might actually be legit bi or even lesbians who don’t know yet. People in their teens and early 20s eventually figure it out for themselves anyway. I would hate to see a woman exclude a woman based on one being “bi” at that age. The odds are not great but it’s hard to tell young people not to go there.

          If it was someone older and new I would definitely tell them to watch out for certain types if she was asking me, but most people do what they want anyway! Lol

          [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          All I can say is the late 1990’s and early 2000’s were a bitch lol.

          [–]CJLez 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          I met a woman who had been in straight relationships until she was approx 30 and then identified as a lesbian, which is plausible because later-in-life lesbians do exist. However, now that she's in her early 60s she's fallen in love with a guy and has come out as bisexual.

          Part of me wonders if her 'lesbianism' was either political or a result of a bad straight relationship but at least she's admitting she's bisexual.

          [–][deleted] 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          Bisexuals literally call that the “bi cycle,” where they are into men, then women, then men, then women. I can’t imagine being with someone that cycles like that.

          [–][deleted]  (72 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]yousaythosethings 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

            I’m a late bloomer lesbian and can confirm that I’ve known I was attracted to women since I was young. It just took me a while to accept that I wasn’t attracted to men. I only had one male partner though so it’s not like I was ever super into men. I never even went on a single date with a guy that wasn’t set up my someone else. Given my upbringing and childhood trauma I just thought my lack of interest in and attraction to men was a problem for me to get over and I had no lesbians or bi women in my life so I never even considered the possibility that I could be in a relationship or partnered in some way with a woman.

            [–][deleted]  (12 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]yayblueberries 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

              The latebloomerlesbians sub on Reddit was a total shitshow of bicurious women who claimed to be lesbians who were straight and just hated their ex-husbands. I was in their Discord for maybe a week. What a bunch of assholes they were.

              load more comments (10 replies)

                [–]Gearbeta 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                Yeah I agree that the harder part is figuring out you aren't attracted to men. Attraction to women was clear. There's a sliding scale of bullshit when it comes to late bloomers. Like virgin in late twenties or slept with one man she immediately ditched afterwards and didn't date for years after? Ok I can believe it. Repeated marriages, kids with a man, multiple long term relationships with men? Yeahhhh no.

                [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Exactly. Your experience was complicated and the result of a bunch of stuff. You’re not running around saying the devil made you do it, and it was comphet. Lol. It makes sense

                [–]RedditHatesLesbians 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                Yeah I always kind of knew I was attracted to women, but didn't really recognise it as attraction until later. I just assumed all women felt like I did. I actually spent a lot of time wondering if I was asexual because of my lack of sexual attraction towards men, because that seemed more plausible in my head then than being a lesbian - the culture of close intimacy between women made me feel like wanting that was normal. Similarly, I only later realised that me becoming obsessed with girls at school and thinking they're super pretty wasn't straight. I think comphet can't make you attracted to men, just make you feel as though your attraction to women isn't attraction, just what heterosexuals totally experience. But that's just my take.

                [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

                I completely agree. The whole comphet thing is a nightmare idea. It only applies to a small number of situations. So many women are like “but comphet” when they literally have years of trauma and personal stuff and other circumstances that they owe it to themselves to get help for. People’s roads to coming out are different for many reasons and labelling it all comphet is not going to help

                [–][deleted]  (5 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                  Exactly. We all felt pressure to like a guy. To fit in. To not been seen as disgusting and predatory. To not be seen as the “lesbian” only, instead of ourselves. I had male friends that I was such good friends with I would just wish to feel something for them, you know? But you can’t force it.

                  Lots of gay men I knew were beaten and kicked out for being gay. Young guys. Nowhere to go, but they couldn’t deny it was there. Same with women. Gay men get much worse when they come out, so the idea that so many lesbians are just kicking it in straight relationships like “whatever” because of pressure to be straight is just infantilizing.

                  [–]oofreesouloo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                  We all felt pressure to like a guy. To fit in. To not been seen as disgusting and predatory. To not be seen as the “lesbian” only, instead of ourselves. I had male friends that I was such good friends with I would just wish to feel something for them, you know? But you can’t force it.

                  Jeez, I could have written this exact same words myself. With my best friend of all time, who was a straight guy. He was the best friend I've ever had, the only one at the time who not only fully respected my sexual orientation, but helped me embrace it and accept myself when everyone else was making it sound there was something wrong with me. I cannot begin to explain this deep love that I had for this guy. No, he wasn't just talking to me for sex. He genuinely cared, I could talk to him literally about EVERYTHING (since the most stupid things to the most personal things and when I mean personal, I mean really personal). This guy literally cleared my tears a couple of times. He would also open up a lot to me and we had this really strong bond no one would interfere. We would talk on a daily basis, but as time gone by and due to lack of schedule compatibility we started to drift apart slowly, but I still care deeply about him 'till these days and if he ever needed me for something, I would be there. And at the time, I used to be SO angry at myself wondering WHY couldn't I feel anything for this guy? Anything being in a sexual way, in a romantic way, in a relationship way. It was purely platonic... I already knew I was a lesbian, but I didn't want to be. It used to make me so angry, and this guy knew I hated myself and he made me genuinely love myself and not be ashamed of it. I just wanted him to be happy, but not in a 'I want to be in a relationship with you way', but in a 'I want to be part of your life and meet your gf (which I did LOL) kind of way.' We were best friends for 5 years until we finally drifted apart eventually.

                  By the way, I'm so sorry for the length of this lmaaaaaaao

                  [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                  Yeah, I had a group of friends like that and they were such nice people to be around. They didn’t care if anyone was gay. We all moved to different cities, but it’s sad now to think that those mostly male straight kids I hung out with in high school and their girlfriends were the most accepting people I would ever know. Our own community isn’t even close

                  load more comments (1 reply)

                    [–]yousaythosethings 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

                    Learning about the concept of comphet helped me in my journey but there are a lot of things it didn’t answer and I can recognize that there was a lot of questionable shit in that master doc (e.g., past male partner came out as a trans woman - what the fucking fuck). As you said, looking at the totality of the circumstances of my situation, writing it all off as comphet would be a disservice and would be of no benefit to other lesbians in similar circumstances who may resonate with my experience.

                    I also listened to a lot of episodes of the Lesbian Chronicles which is kind of linked with that subreddit but I didn’t find it very relatable. IMHO they gloss over all the important stuff and their message is mainly “everything is great now. Living the dream. Everyone is so accepting including friends, family, and every lesbian. Dating is no problem.” I don’t think one of the women Melisa even really explained how she reached the realization that she was a lesbian. She also made it seem like she had no awareness of her attraction to women until her late 30s. They just kind of worship the master doc and point to it for the answers and everything else is peachy now and just worked itself out.

                    I also didn’t hear anything from them about integrating into the lesbian community as an LBL and issues we may face, which to me is a pretty big topic if not THE topic. They make it seem like it’s not an issue. I know there will always be people and especially lesbians who are going to be inherently suspicious of me and think I’m kind of an idiot (which in this case I am lol) and for many lesbians this would be something that makes them not relate to me or want to be with me (and I accept that even though it hurts).

                    I can’t be the only LBL who is concerned about these things but it often feels like I am, and it does give the impression that the LBL subreddit is full of women who see being a lesbian or bisexual as some kind of cure to a problem. Like a lifestyle change or a special hobby. Definitely some overlap with the trans cult in that regard.

                    Anyway that’s why that sub is mostly useless to me at this point. I left my husband. I don’t have any kids to worry about. I don’t want to engage in discussions of comphet because to the extent that I experienced it, it’s behind me and the spell is broken. I’m mainly interested in integrating into the lesbian community to be among my people and especially the terven ones.

                    [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

                    I can’t imagine how shitty it is to come out after being married to a dude and I think it would actually be a total bummer because the community is horrible and crazy right now, the worst it’s ever been, and I’ve spoken to other late bloomers who are really struggling to understand why lesbians are being so gatekeeping with other lesbians etc. You would definitely have a much much different experience of coming out than any of us and that is not something I envy.

                    That master doc is horrendous. I feel bad for all the women who are freaking out and confused and read that goddamn thing. It makes the craziest things into “you’re a lesbian!” It reads like conversion therapy, the shit the right wingers LITERALLY ACCUSE US OF DOING, recruiting. I’m a gold star and I don’t relate to the majority of it.

                    And you’re right, it’s not a cure, it’s not full of accepting people, dating is not great, and it’s harder to be a lesbian than ever. Those people sound like they are living in a fantasy world.

                    And yes, lots of lesbians will be suspicious of you. For sure. It’s hurtful and it sucks, but the good ones for you will listen. You can see why we don’t trust anyone these days. It’s honestly not even about late bloomers, it’s about the community in general. We are on edge. I don’t blame you for being like wtf in the lb community and then wtf in TL or here when you see how suspicious we are. It wasn’t like this before. Just stick around

                    Edit: you’re not stupid, either. You figure it out when you figure it out. It just sucks to figure it out later because people get scared. Not your fault and it doesn’t make you stupid.

                    [–]CJLez 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

                    That master doc is horrendous.

                    I had only skimmed the masterdoc once before and a couple of bits I related to but I've just been re-reading it fully and some parts really are terrible, esspecially...

                    Now a common misconception is also thateveryone is born knowing they are gay and that’s not necessarily true. It canbe because of both nature AND nurture. If you have had terrible experienceswith men and now would like to no longer date them because you don’t seeyourself being truly happy with a man and would only like to date women,you can be a lesbian too. It’s okay to try on the lesbian identity and see howit fits you because many lesbians were unsure of how they felt about menuntil they identified as lesbians.

                    It's true that not everybody has the terminology to describe their same-sex attraction (I thought I was the only 'lesbian' in the whole world until I was 13 because it was pre-internet and nobody had told me that some people weren't straight) but saying that it is nature and nurture is literally saying that having a bad time with men can turn someone into a lesbian rather than it being an inate sexuality that you discover later on. Fucking hell. Talk about political lesbianism 101. If you don't want to date men you can just stay single.

                    Knowing you’re attracted to women, but feeling weirdly guilty and uncomfortabletrying to interact with them as a straight man, and only later realizing you’reactually a trans lesbian

                    Oh boy.

                    Knowing you’re gay, but experiencing a lot of the symptoms of comp het whenyou try to interact with men romantically/sexually, and only later realizing you’rea trans lesbian and not a gay man

                    I don't even have words for that one. Know that you're gay but experience zero same sex attraction? It proves that 'gay/lesbian' is just a fun little label for some people.

                    hint: 100% straight women do exist

                    I don't know why it is so easy for people to understand that there are people who only experience opposite-sex attraction but can't wrap their heads around people who only experience same-sex attraction. This document feels like it is defining lesbian as anything from 99% attraction to men up to 100% attraction to women. Bisexual is not a bad word.

                    Ifyou are unsure or questioning, feel free to try on the lesbian label as well

                    Again, not a label.

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                    [deleted]

                      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                      That’s what I thought when I read it. I should do a word count on the number of times it says “men” compared to “women.” Because honestly, I’ve never in my whole entire life read anything so man-centered that is meant to define lesbianism or same-sex attraction. That should answer the question right there. If you’re thinking this much about every man-thing you do and so little about women, you ain’t a homo, sis. Lol

                      [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                      Also: they take literally every single possible scrap of evidence of a female being literally into men and debunk it. It’s all “you don’t really like men even though you like men” “you want attention from men but you don’t want it because you want it” “all those men you think are attractive are not actual real attractions” “all those celebrities and male fictional characters you like are all just you being hot for fake men because you’re actually a lesbian and don’t have to date them” “when I man you like likes you back and you immediately don’t like him it’s because you’re actually gay”

                      It’s so dumb. It’s like telling women it’s actually impossible to be straight or bi. It’s such a weird fucking thing

                      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      I am more concerned about how they assign “maybe gay” values to random stuff like not wanting to fuck random dudes but liking the “idea of being with a man.” Yeah, most women are not attracted to most guys. Most lesbians are not into every lesbian. Being nervous about something or being averse to something or having a bad experience of something can all make you not want that thing, it doesn’t mean you’re a damn lesbian, or bi, or straight. Jesus.

                      [–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                      For a hot minute I bought into the hateful, gatekeeping, bi-phobic lesbian rhetoric. But I peaked pretty quickly and suddenly it all made sense and I saw the propaganda for what it was.

                      It’s honestly crazy how manipulative the media is in presenting the Get The L Out movement, for example. It’s all “these old ugly boring ass lesbians blame trans and queer people for their problems” with no attempt to present the lesbian perspective.

                      One of the most eye-opening concepts to me in my life has been “The Missing Missing Reasons.” I learned about it in the context of understanding the gaslighting I received from my narcissistic mom, but it applies generally to propaganda and other narcissistic behavior: http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-reasons-given.html . So I sensed that something was off here and had to dig hard to find out what it was. I actually unintentionally documented my peaking thought process in texts to my friend so I can look back and see what was running through my head. It took about 3 weeks between my initial peaking to reach full comprehension and stop making excuses for TRAs and fully embrace lesbian gatekeeping.

                      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      Yeah, unfortunately I have heard people say lesbians are all mean, old, fat, ugly, dykes and no one wants to be lesbians and they are just hateful etc and none of those people are able to see past their own feelings on the issue into what lesbians have been experiencing. Yes, there are lots of lesbians behaving badly over all of these issues and being mean when they shouldn’t. But to act like it comes from “ugliness and oldness” is like associating anything else with virtuousness, when shallow people are anything but pure. Lesbians are not inherently terrible people. We are the ones who have actually been welcoming to the other letters of the alphabet soup, but people forget that when they want it all.

                      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                      I am sure you are noticing a lot of very solipsistic behaviour from the TRAs. It is recognized by any of us who had parents or family who are pathologically selfish.

                      load more comments (2 replies)

                        load more comments (24 replies)

                          load more comments (5 replies)

                            [–]knownasness 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                            this is literally 80% of my 'friends' and exes. it's infuriating. they were the loudest about being gay too! i don't understand it. i have never felt a single thing for a man and i can say without a doubt i will never find 'an exception'.. i thought i was among other women who were in the same boat, but i was clearly wrong.. it's a large part of why i no longer try to make friends in this community. or date.

                            [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                            The women I’ve known who have done this have generally done it after 30, and later admit they were always attracted to guys here and there but were in denial. And yes, the male celebrity thing is also consistent.

                            I imagine that women exist who didn’t realize they were bi because they didn’t spend much time around men for years, especially if they were always in relationships with women or in school where they choose their daily encounters more than not, but those women are a minority within a minority, I imagine.

                            But who knows. It’s better they found someone, in the end.

                            [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                            🧐 I’ve seen many of these bisexuals 🧐.

                            [–]WildwoodFlower 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                            Ten years ago, I almost went back to an old boyfriend from high school who contacted me via Facebook. I wasn't interested in sleeping with him. I wasn't even interested in sleeping with him back in the day. But I was at a very low point in my life. The Great Recession had kicked me in the ass. I had been ill with H1N1, followed by the worst stomach flu ever, followed by a bad cold. My weight was down to about 90 pounds. I looked and felt horrible, made worse by the fact that I was well aware that I needed to see a doctor, but couldn't afford it. So when this old flame started hanging around my FB page and then expressed an interest in giving it another go, I was very tempted. This was the only positive attention I was getting from anyone, anywhere. It felt good to know that someone wanted me, even if it was the guy who treated me like crap in the 80s. I also liked the idea of having someone to go out and have fun with. I wanted something else in my life besides being broke and sick. Sure, I would have preferred to have my dream woman show up and sweep me off my feet and carry me off into the sunset, but I knew that wasn't going to happen. I figured I'd better take what I could actually get instead of looking for someone I would probably never find.

                            I didn't end up going out with that guy. But I can understand how a lesbian in a similar low point in life could decide to go down that path. People do get lonely and desperate.

                            [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                            [deleted]

                              [–]WildwoodFlower 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                              For me, it wasn't about sex. I had no sex drive at that time because I'd been so sick. I was probably also clinically depressed, although I'll never know for sure because I could not afford medical care then. I just wanted someone to talk to, someone who would take me places. This guy and I had a lot of similar interests when we were young (especially our taste in music), so I was remembering what that felt like. The idea of having that kind of connection with somebody appealed to me. My other friends had problems of their own, so I wasn't seeing them much. Some of my family members were going through an even worse recession experience, so I wasn't getting much support from anyone on that front. There was no "room" for my problems in my family at that time.

                              I think what I really wanted back then was just an escape from it all, and this guy was offering me that.

                              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                              [deleted]

                                [–]a_blue_bird 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

                                Well, I know of quite a few bisexual but female-leaning women who call themselves lesbians, and only date women by choice. They are one group of people for whom I think it would be easier to tell everyone that they met their one male exception, and not that they've been bisexual all along, just lied about being lesbians. Basically I'd expect most of these women to be identifying as lesbians for a reason different than being exclusively same-sex attracted.

                                [–][deleted]  (13 children)

                                [deleted]

                                  [–]a_blue_bird 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (12 children)

                                  What do they think they are going to gain from calling themselves lesbians?

                                  Their complaint is that lesbians won't date bisexuals, so they can't call themselves bi.

                                  [–]Astrid2448[S] 25 insightful - 2 fun25 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                                  You know, whether or not someone has a bigoted reason for not wanting to date you, lying about yourself to gain access to someone who wouldn't otherwise want you is always a shitty move

                                  [–]oofreesouloo 20 insightful - 9 fun20 insightful - 8 fun21 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

                                  That's why "transbians" and these "bi lesbians" get along with each other so well lmao

                                  [–][deleted]  (8 children)

                                  [deleted]

                                    [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

                                    My friend said bisexuals DO date other bisexuals, I don’t see it though. The bisexuals I am currently connected to are all married to lesbians, or men. But never bisexuals. I don’t think I’ve ever met bi women together.

                                    [–]Ricky_Ticky 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                                    I noticed that too and I was wondering why is it like that. I bet bi women can't stand seeing their partners going through "bi cycle", even though they demand understanding for it from lesbians and het men.

                                    [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                    It reads to me like “bored of sex with my partner and want a new partner who is different” but make it “bi”

                                    I don’t think it happens to all bisexuals anyway, but I’ve heard it spoken about and seen women discussing it in mixed LGBT spaces, so it must be a thing a good amount of bisexual ppl relate to.

                                    load more comments (5 replies)

                                      [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                      Being a liar is a good way to secure a mate. LOLL. I dated a woman who did exactly this and holy shit was her past ever full of horrible choices. If only I had known earlier. But people like this don’t care about the one they date, they care about themselves. She was literally the worst partner I’ve had and the one who left me with the most issues to work through.

                                      [–]VioletRemi 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

                                      In todays world word "lesbian" is tainted by pronography and transgender activists. Even when two straight women will kiss it will be called "lesbianism", or when transvestite or drag queen will date a women, everyone will call them "lesbians" (and transvestites I know are really pissed with that, but if they try speak out - they being cancelled).

                                      This means that "lesbian" is just a new "cool thing", promoted by porn (I believe it was most viewed tag on pornhub few years in a row by men, or something like that; and lesbianism in porn is often "two women have sex and then in the end man appeared and finished them", at least when I checked recently).

                                      load more comments (1 reply)

                                        load more comments (3 replies)