all 21 comments

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]VioletRemi 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    One hundred percent this. Most of my self hate, and rejection of my body was only because of the treatments I got from the society.

    [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I relate to that. It seems very much like dysphoria is an externally-originating problem, even though it seems to come from the inside.

    [–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    I’m “femme” and had brutal dysphoria for years. Believe it or not, it’s not a butch thing, it can be an “any lesbian” thing, and mine was particularly bad because I have an hourglass type female body, a real stereotype. Even my face.

    I was told I am “too pretty to be a dyke” and “don’t look like a man, so obviously you were not born gay” etc and it caused me a lot of distress as a young lesbian, especially since other lesbians liked women who were androgynous looking.

    On top of that, feeling wrong as a woman with a woman instead of being a man like I grew up seeing. I wanted all of the female tells on my body to go away, not to be a “man” as much as not be a woman. And I had a hard time relating to feminine-beauty practices and clothes. Female stereotypical roles in general, especially the ones associated with shyness and modesty, even weakness. I am just not those things, I don’t have those qualities and didn’t. Everything I wore felt like drag. It STILL feels like drag. But masculine shit feels like drag too.

    I think the dysphoria was from all of the ways I was failing to be a “proper” girl and then a “proper” woman, but looking SO “feminine” in my whole body and face. I had to just stop thinking about it

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I don’t think there are any super major butches doing any butch code stuff lately anyway.

      [–]carrotcake 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Oh i really identify with this

      [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Thanks so much for sharing, I really appreciate it.

      Everything I wore felt like drag. It STILL feels like drag. But masculine shit feels like drag too.

      I REALLY relate to this. I always felt so uncomfortable for years, and still do, wearing dresses and skirts in particular. So uncomfortable, like a performance. I have heard the phrase "performing femininity" but it feels like that, viscerally. It's kind of hard to describe but it's been so consistent for me for years.

      Some masculine stuff makes me feel like that, too. But not all. I was thinking of trying to buy or try on more clothes from the men's section (before the pandemic hit anyway). I've never tried some stuff but always wanted to, like joggers. I'm sorry you still have the feeling that stuff you wear feels like drag, that sounds really frustrating. And very uncomfortable, if my experience is similar.

      I previously brushed off my discomfort with dresses and skirts as simply being due to a negative connotation, because I have gotten creepy sexual remarks from men while wearing dresses. But-- I am wondering if it is not so simple.

      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Upon further thought, I guess feeling like everything is drag is not uncomfortable now, but that’s because I actually believe it’s just drag. What makes me more uncomfortable are people who feel their clothing etc is a representation of some kind of gender essence due to their sex. Clothes are just things we like for many reasons, and have more to do with our personal life experiences than any essential being.

      I’ve done a lot of meditation and it has led me to see many things as just ego layers. I wear mostly black. It’s not because I am some “essential goth” or punk or anything, it’s just easier to dress up or down with bits of colour, and it doesn’t overstimulate my eyes. I have some sentimental ties to it from my teens, and we wear black at work a lot on purpose. Also, other people make associations about our character and interests through clothing and I prefer to be noticed less for that. When you wear colour you have to make sure things coordinate and I don’t want to buy things to look good with everything. That’s too much time and money. Lol.

      I know what you mean about dresses. I don’t wear dresses much because i don’t feel like sitting like a “lady,” it’s uncomfortable for me, and I don’t like being objectified so I don’t wear boob revealing shirts etc. It’s not masculine to not wear specifically feminine clothing, as much as it is an avoidance of sheer discomfort and objectification, and wardrobe malfunctions. I move around a lot and don’t need my tits out or ass on display.

      One thing I do wear is lingerie. Most women are surprised to see what I have on under these clothes. Lol. If I have anything super “femme” about me, it’s bras and underwear FOR SURE. I like how they feel though, when they fit just right. Like being perfectly cradled. Many brands are specifically designed to fit different female bodies, and are very comfortable, so it’s almost like these things can be the most pro-woman garments out there. No one has to see it, only yourself and your partners. That’s what I like the most.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        Wow, that sounds like a real journey figuring that all out! I'm really glad that top surgery has helped you. Thank you for sharing your perspective, I appreciate it.

        [–]Fuckyoucensorship 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Thank you and thanks for taking the time to read it.

        [–]Ricky_Ticky 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

        If it's really dysphoria that a lesbian woman is experiensing, then she can't be a lesbian, I suppose. I heard from a few lesbian friends that they once thought they felt dysphoric but realized later that it was some sort of "penis envy" that has gotten so strong at some point that they confused it with dysphoria.

        Certain circumstances in their lives have led them to wish so much they were born males because life would be so much easier, that they started to subconsciously hate their female bodies and kinda blame the bodies for all the problems. The friends I am talking about were not all butch. Some were butch and some pretty femme

        [–]VioletRemi 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

        I lived through self hate as well, and I am very femme. I tried to look boy-ish during self hate periods, thought.

        [–]piylot 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        What's your reasoning behind saying a woman can't experience dysphoria and be a lesbian?

        I believe a woman can feel a strong internal sense of discomfort or dissonance between her sex either in the practicalities of her biology or how it leads to her being perceived by society, and still understand that she is a woman, choose to live as a woman and not take on any identities in terms of gender other than woman. If that woman is exclusively attracted to other women then she's a lesbian. If we define woman as female adult human, then I don't see how experiencing gender dysphoria means you can't be a lesbian.

        [–]Ricky_Ticky 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        I think if a woman is experiencing dysphoria she is transgender, not lesbian. Dysphoria can be easily confused with so many other conditions, be it body dysmorphia, autoandrophilia or a sense of permanent discomfort that comes from not meeting heteronormative social expectations.

        I agree with you that a woman with dysphoria can choose to live as a woman. But that does not make her a lesbian who chose to live as a woman, she is trangender who chose not to transition.

        [–]piylot 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        If a woman is experiencing dysphoria she's a woman though right? A woman attracted to other women.

        Do you believe the person should more accurately be described as a man? Or do you see transgender as a third category?

        [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        I am also curious about this as well. I think it partly depends on how you define "woman" and "transgender".

        [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

        Huh, I guess I am not sure what dysphoria is, then. It is (at least in part) a feeling that you reject and hate your body parts, right?

        Certain circumstances in their lives have led them to wish so much they were born males because life would be so much easier, that they started to subconsciously hate their female bodies and kinda blame the bodies for all the problems.

        That makes a lot of sense. It also makes sense to me how any woman could arrive at that conclusion, not just butches.

        [–]Ricky_Ticky 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        I believe dysphoria is when you know you are supposed to have male body, be called he and sir and just live your life as male.

        What dysphoria is not (from how I understand it) is when woman has masculine-ish face and big breasts and she hates her breasts and dreams to have a Shane type of body:). Or when a woman falls in love with another woman but realizes the woman is straight and she thinks "oh if I were a dude I would have a chance".

        [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        Ah, okay. I think I had a different idea of what dysphoria is then, because I have heard many places that some lesbians can have gender dysphoria but not be trans (not want to be a male).

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          Ah okay. Thanks for letting me know, I appreciate it. :) I think some of the confusion is because people seem to define the word differently. I am not sure how much that has been influenced by the trans rights movement of the past few years.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]Ricky_Ticky 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Now I am confused. Let's say a woman is attracted to females exclusively and at the same she consistently dreams of growing a beard and having male genitals. Theoretically she is a bio-woman who is into females. But is she a lesbian?

            [–]piylot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            "Bio-woman" is redundant if you're defining woman as a biological category. If we define woman as adult female human, then whatever thoughts or feelings she has have no effect on defining her as a woman.

            If you define a woman as someone who feels comfortable and enjoys following the expected female sex role and portraying the expected female image, then the person you've described is a "man".

            Depends what definition you take. That's the split opinions.