The male gaze

submitted by RedditHatesLesbians from self.Lesbians

This quote has always haunted me.

“Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.”

I feel like I spend my whole time in public hiding from male attention. I never wore makeup and always wore baggy clothing and even developed an eating disorder to hide from male attention. I tried to make myself as unappealing as possible, and I don't know how much this has to do with some trauma in my past and how much is simply because of being a lesbian.

A guy once told me, in confidence, that in a guys head, for every woman he meets, it isn't a matter of if he would fuck her, but under which circumstance. He was a total creep and I'm sure not all men think like that (I hope so) but the idea it's even true for some men makes me uncomfortable with friendships with men. I've had men confess to me that they were only friends with me in hopes of sex or a romantic relationship, and these were guys I'd been friends with for years, who were apparently just sitting and waiting for the opportune moment to convince me to swap teams. It's not worth the effort to be constantly guessing a guys motive. The only men I'm easily friends with are gay.

Just felt the need to rant, but I wish there was some way to become completely unappealing to men. Like a pill that repelled them with pheromones. I'd take it in an instant.

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    [–]yayblueberries 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I've had pretty much the same experience with straight men, nearly all of them have tried to figure out a way to get me to have sex with them. Some of them even played the long game. What a waste of my time, to believe somebody is just a friend, only to have them suddenly turn on me in the sense of trying to get into my pants! The few men who didn't, disrespected me entirely, probably because they thought I was unfuckable. Or because I am a bit of a radfem and don't put up with the more covert things men do to treat women as second-rate, like interrupting me or explaining things to me that I already know like I'm five.

    [–]Astrid2448 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    Real talk... most of the women who say this (for clarification: “this” referring to girls who put down all women but themselves as problematic, stupid, or boring) think it’s “easier” to be friends with men because they won’t call them out the way another woman would. If she acts like a jackass they’ll either say “eh, women are crazy (in other words: “I have low standards for this person’s behavior because they are female”)” or “she’s hot, let it go”. They don’t have to take accountability and their insecurity doesn’t have to face “competition”. That’s why

    [–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Real talk... most of the women who say this (for clarification: “this” referring to girls who put down all women but themselves as problematic, stupid, or boring) think it’s “easier” to be friends with men because they won’t call them out the way another woman would.

    I agree that women who put down all women but themselves, are concerning and probably have some issues they need to work out. But I think you are making an unfair generalization about why some women might find it "easier" to be friends with men.

    I usually find it easier to form casual (but not close!) friendships with men because many of my hobbies are far more popular among men than women. For example, I follow the stock market, love watching financial crime documentaries, and am interested in building a computer. Most of the people I know who also share these interests are men.

    I would love to know more women who share my hobbies but am not sure where to find them. Maybe I should make a post about it here. :)

    [–]Astrid2448 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    I'm not making an unfair generalization. Im not talking about people who just happen to like idk football or something and make friends with the guys on their team. I'm talking about women who are frankly sexist and go out of their way to say things like "I like men because women are so vapid and annoying" or "I like having fun and making silly jokes and women are too uptight for me because of that". I already clarified that

    [–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I just looked back at the comment chain and saw your response to u/a_blue_bird, sorry I didn't see that before.

    I think your first comment might have been easily misinterpreted, but it sounds like we are agreeing on the same thing then, so cool.

    [–]Astrid2448 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Its alright, don't worry about it

    [–]a_blue_bird 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    most of the women who say this think it’s “easier” to be friends with men because they won’t call them out the way another woman would. If she acts like a jackass .. They don’t have to take accountability and their insecurity doesn’t have to face “competition”.

    Seriously? Most of the women who get along with men are insecure jackasses who can't take accountability for their actions? And men are friends with them only because they have low standards for female behavior? Lol. You must be a radfem.

    [–]yayblueberries 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    I love how you get totally defensive and butthurt over this and use the typical male attempt at an insult by calling her a "radfem" as if that's a slur and a way to get her to shut up. You proved her point totally correct, and I AM a radfem, if you can't get along with other women and get along better with men it IS because you're a broken and twisted person, you're likely a self-hating misogynist. At the bare minimum you obviously hate women who stand up for the rights of women, you're so nasty and disgusting that you think "radfem" is an insult.

    Go fuck dudes if you hate women so much. Or fuck off this sub if you are a dude, it sounds like it.

    [–]a_blue_bird 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    I get along with women, I just don't get along with feminists. You are totally fine with her calling women who have mostly male friends ''jackasses'', ''insecure'', claiming that men only hang out with women because of ''low standards'', even add that I'm ''broken and twisted'', ''nasty and disgusting'' and what not. Lol. This is why pretty much nobody at this point can tolerate feminists. You are digging your own grave, good luck with that.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I am not the person you're responding to, and have pretty feminist views. I don't have anything against radfems, although I don't think I qualify as one.

    But, I disagree with this part of what you said:

    if you can't get along with other women and get along better with men it IS because you're a broken and twisted person, you're likely a self-hating misogynist.

    I replied to a different comment with this, but basically: Many (although not all) of the hobbies and interests I have, are way more popular with men than women. On average. So right off the bat, it is often easier for me to relate with guys who are excited about topics X Y and Z, and I am excited about X Y and Z too. Almost all of my close friendships are with women, so I don't believe I am the type of person you are describing. I can't say I have a perfect relationship with myself, but I am working on it. :)

    I do know at least one woman who is VERY much like you describe, though. It is a real phenomenon.

    edit: To be clear. I don't think I am a "broken and twisted person" because I often get along better with men than women. But, I do think some women-- though not all-- hang out with only guys because they are misogynistic.

    [–]Astrid2448 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    No, Im not a radfem and that is not what I said. I’m talking about the girls who say stuff like “I can’t stand women, I only get along with men! Women are soo much drama, they’re all so toxic! I like talking about more than just shoes and lipstick!”

    I have male friends too, I think most people have at least a few. That isn’t the point. It’s the girls who go out of their way to say their own sex isn’t as worthy of their time as men are, and that all women are apparently problematic, stupid, or boring except for them.

    [–]Innisfree 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Hmm. I am ambivalent about such quotes, makes me think: "On a systemic level, maybe." Personally I'd be wary trying to apply this to our daily lives. Yes, men as a group, are objectifying women. And women, as a group, actively participate in this system, because most women love men and play the game to curry their favor.

    Even this quote was probably written by a straight woman. It it so categorical about her entire life being defined by male attention. As a lesbian, sure I feel self-conscious in public about my appearance, but I was never so preoccupied with men as to be fearful of their fantasies. Fantasize away bucko, but i draw the line when your fantasies in any way affect my life. And I am grateful to the feminists who came before, because thanks to them no man can ruin my life financially now, I have an education and a job and can stand my ground.

    You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.

    That's the tragic aspect of womanhood - learning from an early age to keep yourself in line, God forbid you upset the ever present spirit of patriarchy. But as lesbians it is easier for us than for straight women to unlearn any internalized misogyny. We are more aware of the nefarious impact of the male gaze. Well, even if it doesn't feel easier, we sure have more of an incentive.

    Edit: Just to clarify, i don't want to deny anybody's experience. I know so many women and am inclned to think it is the norm, who are absolutely pestered by men and their weird ideas of how a woman should behave. And not everybody has the personality or wants to keep swatting them away - that takes energy and quite a bit of what society sees in women as 'aggressive'.

    [–]a_blue_bird 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I was never so preoccupied with men as to be fearful of their fantasies.

    Agreed. My goal was always to be attractive to women. Which isn't going to happen if you are actively trying to become as unattractive as possible, due to a fear of men.

    [–]Innisfree 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I wish someone could've told me this when i was a teen making myself invisible to the girls because i feared they'd hate me if they knew I'm gay. I worked it out, but the lost time...

    [–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I like all of your thoughts.

    [–]Innisfree 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Aw, shucks ☺️

    [–]oofreesouloo 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Same! I also wished that 😅

    [–]carrotcake 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I've had similar experiences. Today i'm able to deal with straight men in a daily basis just fine. It's actually easier to talk to men in a superficial level, like i said in another post. It's also become so much easier since i came out because they aren't really expecting anything from me. But when i was younger i tried so hard to be more than a sexual object to men and it honestly destroyed me. At first i tried to be friends with them, but they always wanted more and i had to either run away from the friendship or pretend i didn't notice. Then i got to a point that my self esteem was so low that i developed several eating disorders and just wanted to disappear - I was so sexualized when i was young that all i wanted was for nobody to see me. Men catcalled me everywhere i went or looked at me with those "im eating you out" eyes. I was a fucking child at that time. In my teenage years i had to really just stop talking to straight men for a good year so i could function. It's really frustrating. One thing that helped a lot is not prioritizing or even caring too much about friendships with men. It has definitely helped that men have stopped to sexualize me so much, probably because i started to present more masculine. Which is also frustrating lol

    [–]LesChameleon 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    A guy once told me, in confidence, that in a guys head, for every woman he meets, it isn't a matter of if he would fuck her, but under which circumstance.

    I was so shocked when I first heard this but now I know better. I used to have many male friends in high school and early in college, and I've seen them plenty of times saying that a certain girl was ugly, unattractive or even worse, only to have sex with her when she was drunk enough later. They literally saw any woman as a "fuckable object" and I felt so bad for their girlfriends later on. I always wondered if they chose girlfriends only because they were attractive

    [–]Astrid2448 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I’ve had the same problem with guys having ulterior motives to friendship. I love the idea of having a straight guy best friend in the vein of straight women making friends with gay men, but in reality, we get sexualized a lot. I’ve also had guys try to wait for the right time to turn me and it grosses me out.

    I do have some close male friends though. One of my closest is a bi man (he leans very heavily straight, basically he every now and then hooks up with a guy but wouldn’t date one). We have a really chill friendship where I have no fear about that kind of thing.

    [–]thea 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    A guy I was good friends with in college (and very uncomfortably "dated" briefly when still closeted) admitted to me that he and his other guy friends would sit in the dining hall and rate the women on a 1-10 scale as they went up to swipe their cards for food. He said this like it was a funny anecdote but it was a really horrible realization for me that men I knew would actively objectify women in such a way. It drives me crazy how misogynistic the world is and how lesbians especially are "pornified" for the male gaze. The King Princess playboy photoshoot and Megan Rapinoe Sports Illustrated photoshoot come to mind as lesbians actively engaging in it too :/

    I've always been a woman that has mostly other women as friends but my few male friendships have inevitably turned into an "I know you don't date men but I'm really at a crossroads and if we just got to know each other better maybe..." leaving me to either be the bitch ("I'm a lesbian and you know that so why are you doing this?") or capitulate to spare their feelings (NOT happening).

    This was a huge ramble OP but I just wanted to let you know you're not alone, even though I dealt with it differently. So much of my teen years and early twenties was wasted on trying to conform to the male gaze and being miserable when I succeeded but not understanding why.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    A guy once told me, in confidence, that in a guys head, for every woman he meets, it isn't a matter of if he would fuck her, but under which circumstance. He was a total creep and I'm sure not all men think like that... I've had men confess to me that they were only friends with me in hopes of sex or a romantic relationship, and these were guys I'd been friends with for years, who were apparently just sitting and waiting for the opportune moment to convince me to swap teams.

    I have been told this by, or had this happen with, at least 4 guys by this point (I feel like I might be forgetting some). The last time it happened, I was sexually assaulted, by a guy I considered a very close friend. I now assume all guys believe this, and I will only believe otherwise if they indicate otherwise. Maybe this is too cautious, but I'm in therapy for a reason lol.

    a pill that repelled them with pheromones. I'd take it in an instant

    Same.

    edit: I suppose I should clarify, I am talking about straight guys. I don't have many guy friends who are gay or bi, so I am definitely over-generalizing here.