How straight women react to butches / women they clock as lesbians

submitted by Innisfree from self.Lesbians

So this is a half-vent half-exploratory question. This thing used to happen to me quite often. So often in fact that I jokingly nicknamed it “The 10 min rule”.

Picture this: you are with a woman, you are fairly butch looking (so there is a high chance she clocks you as a lesbian), and you are talking to her, being garden-variety polite. She is a colleague, a friend of a friend, an acquaintance. The environment the conversation takes place in has nothing to suggest "dating scene". Whatever you may be talking about, abruptly and pointedly the woman brings her boyfriend into the conversation. Or awkwardly drops a detail about her boyfriend that is unrelated to the conversation. And it usually happens 5 minutes into the interaction but never beyond 10 mins.

While I get that when you are in love you want to talk about your partner all the time (been there), but the way many women did it made me think to myself: “Lol Susan, calm down, I’m not making a pass at you”. I laugh it off and get it that they are being cautious.

Has this happened to you and do you think it warrants the title of “rule”?

PS: I hope we can understand and laugh at the ridiculousness of certain situations/misconceptions, rather than focusing on criticizing straight women and their imaginary fears.

Edit: Important to specify that it happens in the first conversation I'm having with the person.

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[–]Lessom 29 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 0 fun30 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it’s just a straight women thing. Some straight women self worth is based on whether they have a bf or not.

[–]whateverman 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Do you have that other thing happen to you with straight guys that categorize you as a male-friend equivalent? Where they call you bro and say things they would never say around a woman they want to fuck? Like, what is that? It's like, because you're more masculine-presenting and attracted to women, they forget you might not like some of the sexist jokes and objectifying comments they have to make.

Doesn't happen to me now that my hair's long and I wear feminine outfits.

[–]Innisfree[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yep, you get quite a window into masculinity, i. e. you hear some shit. It also doesn't happen to me now, I've softened.

[–]florasis 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I guess being masculine as opposed to looking like an average woman makes the experience pretty different and for a masculine women their orientation impacts their life much more.

[–]Innisfree[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Agree, and also I find a more homophobic environment really brings out what u/carrotcake and u/violetremi so well describe. But I really appreciate hearing the different perspectives shared here.

Edit: I don't know about being masculine impacting my life more than say for a feminine lesbian, depends on the level of homophobia, but in general - it's just a different way. I think this thread illustrates it very well.

[–]florasis 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A femme lesbian will be considered straight until she says she isn't.That's a great difference.

[–]oofreesouloo 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I personally think it sucks to be either a femme or butch lesbian. As a femme, I feel like people rarely believe me or think I must be bisexual constantly "because it's impossible that a lesbian is feminine". The struggles are just different.

[–]florasis 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know that I wouldn't want everyone everywhere to know my sexuality. Not that I got a problem, but I would rather a freedom of keeping it to myself, or not beign see as a central part of me.

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I actually only have two gay men friends and one straight, but he is relative and with mental health issues.

[–]whateverman 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I have a few close guy friends, but they're all old friends from my school years or extended family. I don't think I could easily befriend other men now.

It's weird. I can see them, empathize with them and try to understand them, but there's this tacit understanding that they're always thinking about women, sex with women, being with women. It's weird and the only thing that seems to turn it off is shared history or being categorized into a non-fuckable label (family, old friend). If they can't do either and they're not attracted to you, you don't even exist and they won't even see you. They'll outright ignore you and barely recognize you as a fellow human being.

It's so frustrating because there's this part of me that wants to say "I'm human too and I wish we could be friends," but they'd never see any value in that. You're either a fuck hole or you're nothing.

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

always thinking about women, sex with women

Not my gay friends, ha ha.

If they can't do either and they're not attracted to you, you don't even exist and they won't even see you

You mean "there can't be friendship between man and woman and there always more"?

I'm human too

Sadly this only started getting to the society after second wave of feminism...and not even in majorities of countries. And now with this gender ideology stupidity, everything is rolled back to sexist stereotypes and oversexualization of women. Like "having a personality" is not male gender trait, pffffffft.

[–]whateverman 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do think gay men can understand this to some degree. I've heard at least some complaints about straight women treating them like women or using them as a prop rather than an actual friend.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You mean "there can't be friendship between man and woman and there always more"?

I have run into a disturbing number of straight men who believe this.

[–]lairacunda 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I had one male friend for a few years. Can't remember now why I thought it was a good idea. Maybe because he was gay and pretty innocuous and we had some things in common. The thing I started to notice at some point was that my expectations of him were a lot lower than for women. He mostly used me for emotional support when things got rough for him. He was nice but bland.

[–]votkriscan 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I like your humor, and it's nice hearing the experiences of others.

I will share about how things are like on my end. Professional environments are stiffer over here, so people don't even really think to clock you as that would make things too personal. In a more social context, there is a great difference between straight women who are accepting of lesbians and those who do not. If she is a straight women who dislikes lesbians/homosexuals and either clocks you or knows that you are gay, then she will tend to have a colder sort of attitude towards you or even be unpleasant. There may be some of that "lesbians may perv on you" sort of thing but in general it's more of the above. And it doesn't matter if you are a butch or femme, you get treated the same.

Now for straight women that are accepting of lesbians, it's rather different. If you are a butch woman, she will get intrigued. If you are that rarer butch woman who looks like a male pop star, then she may flirt and hit on you as much as the straight guys that she gets crushes on. If you are a femme, you are treated normally, just like how they treat their fellow straight female friends. If you are femme/femme (like myself), they think your sexual orientation makes sense. If you are femme/butch, they will ask why won't you date men as well (if for example, you declare a lack of total disinterest towards men)?

That's how it's like here. 😃

[–]oofreesouloo 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a femme4femme, I 100% agree with you. My experience is exactly the same loool

[–]Innisfree[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you are femme/butch, they will ask why won't you date men as well

Ahh a variation on the oldie but goldie, "Who's the man and who's the woman in the relationship?" This must be the question that follows lesbians since the dawn of time :) The question that binds us together, in an almost permanent, collective eye-roll :)

PS: Thank you for sharing your perspective - great to hear what people are experiencing.

[–]Happy_face_caller 12 insightful - 9 fun12 insightful - 8 fun13 insightful - 9 fun -  (2 children)

I call it Lesbian dating coach. Hets of both flavors seem to think we not only are interested in their pathetic dating lives, but that we have some magical ability to fix it without them having to do a drop of work to learn how to communicate better with the other sex.

I don’t live in a romantic comedy so I am not here to listen to you gush about your straight relationship thanks, I mean get some boundaries.

Sometimes I’ll just start talking about my personal life like we are having a casual back and forth and enjoy watching their face change because usually they tolerate us at most, but only want to hear about the glittery part of Homo life or be invited to pride.

They all secretly think we want to be straight so they “share” their lives as an inspiration lol and creepily triangulate us as a form of bonding.

Yeah no thanks. The affrontedness crap is a whole other issue for me because it’s not 1975 anymore so that gay panic crap is pathetic. Don’t flatter yourself Susan.

[–]spirette 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

this is so blunt and so true, I love it! And I completely agree.

Straight women so don't want to hear about normal lesbian relationships in my experience. Like you said: only the glittery part. hence why they luuurve gay men.

Whenever I casually mention in conversation that I'm a lesbian to a straight woman (coworker, acquaintance) I immediately sense they are surprised and uncomfortable but trying to hide it (because they don't want to appear homophobic and they're totes cool with it, don't you know - but they are not in fact, not at all). And I'm just there thinking: yeah, as if. Sit down. I'm so not attracted to straight women. Nothing kills my attraction faster than a woman mentioning their boyfriend or a random "hot" male celebrity.

[–]Happy_face_caller 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It’s what demonstrates they merely tolerate us vs pretending to accept us.

They want to gush about their het bs and have us listen intently, but then don’t want to hear about our Lesbian lives unless it’s to invite them to the drag show.

We don’t have to over contribute to society anymore and now they are mad.

Stay mad I’m not a trash site for your het problems, I’m here about reciprocity or keep it moving

[–]VioletRemi 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Women saying to me about their boyfriends only when I am flirting too much with them.

Some women are afraid of me, especially in toilets and similar spaces, seems they think that lesbians are acting like men, sexually wise. Some women just disgusted from any view or thought about lesbianism. In general men care about my lesbianism more than women, heh.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think maybe they almost stop seeing us as women. Even femmes.

[–]VioletRemi 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, last decade I am femme too, however, most people I interract do know that I love other women exclusively.

not as women

I still remember watching video with compilation of women (just regular women, not GC or anything) complaining about transgenders in women-only spaces. And few of them said things like "I feel uncomfortable even if there lesbian woman with me, and transgenders even worse than that". Some were even worse with "I will not let lesbian or transgender be even close to me or my kids in women-only spaces".

That felt so disheartening, and hurt a lot.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s so awful. I would have felt the same. Heartbreaking

[–]florasis 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Didn't you say you were a femme? How can't they being afraid of you?

[–]VioletRemi 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, I am mostly interracting only with people I know, plus I not always was femme.

[–]florasis 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, many hetero women start seeing a lesbian in different way when they know their sexuality.

[–]oofreesouloo 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Hello :D I'm not a butch and people don't clock me as a lesbian, I'm a femme. So I almost never feel like they think I want something with them. What usually happens is that they look confused/don't believe me/etc etc etc. But I've met a few butch women. Although I know butch women get a LOT of homophobia crap and at least femmes can "blend in" with the straights, I sometimes can't help but to feel envy for butch women. For my personal experience, straight women tend to like butch women MUCH more than femme women, and butch women tend to get much more attention than me. What I mean is that it's much more likely that a straight women will want to kiss you for fun or "want to experiment with you" than when you're a femme. I always feel like that ugly men no woman wants lolololololol. I feel like a butch women many times are intriguing for straight women as, FOR THEM, it resembles a guy in several ways, not only in the way they present (short hair, masculine clothes etc etc) but also the personality. Besides, you're a woman so straight women will even think that's a plus as in it's more likely you won't be as shitty as the bf's they've had before. However, this is just an observation and it's not exactly to do with this topic but I felt like a good opportunity to talk about this haha 😂 This is, however, based on my personal experience.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]oofreesouloo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Sometimes, I just wanted to have fun you know? haha. But I agree that if you want something serious it's fucked up.

    [–]florasis 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    There are plenty of bisexual or curios women for fun, without looking like a man

    [–]florasis 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    Having women liking you because you remind them of men is actually shitty. You cannot envy them

    [–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

    "Butch" is not "looking like a man", tho. It is still looking like a woman, just "less standart" one. And some butch lesbians are just very cool, metal/punk and confident just by their looks. From butch lesbians I like when it is the mix of femme+butch, tho.

    [–]florasis 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Butches are ultra-masculine in haircut and clothes, usually even personality. I like a mix of femme + femme lol

    [–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Well, I like almost all kinds of women, heh. The only women I don't like are not women at all :)

    I have special weakness for long hair, asian-ish with dark hair or women with dusky skin color (I hope it is not offensive phrase), especially with brighter hair.

    [–]florasis 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yeah, exactly. Longer dark hair and dark deep eyes. And asians are cute. Awww.

    [–]lairacunda 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Butch is a woman who doesn't perform the gender stereotypes allotted to females.

    [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 9 fun6 insightful - 8 fun7 insightful - 9 fun -  (10 children)

    Plus they probably want to have an orgasm for once, lol.

    [–]oofreesouloo 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

    savage

    [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    I imagine most butch women, and lesbians in general, eventually end up with skills these women wish their men had. Plus butches seem really eager to please and take direction without feeling emasculated because they are not men. They even ASK for direction and get very excited to be given some. Lol.

    If these women like a more masculine look anyway, I can actually understand that they would be curious because they don’t realize that women are pretty likely to be hurt when we get toyed with, and random sex isn’t as appealing to us as some of the dudes they like, I bet.

    [–]oofreesouloo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    Yeah I know, but I still feel like the ugly man in the room LOL. Straight women don't feel curiosity with me, I'm just like one of their regular female friends, expect I like women. There was once a close female friend of fime who told me "I wish I was lesbian, because then my love life would be solved". And I asked how so, to which she replied: "Because I could date you". Do you think I could get a simple kiss from her? Nope. I don't have that "masc muscled vibe" that many, if not most, straight women like. I'm not "attractive or intriguing" in any way to them, despite them liking my personality a lot. I'm actually the opposite of what turns them on - super sensitive, not masculine in any way and don't intend to be any "gentleman" whatsoever lmao. And, of course, I'm a woman LMAO.

    [–]florasis 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    Because they're straight, not because of you.

    [–]oofreesouloo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    Omggggggg why are you so cute stop

    [–]florasis 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    It's just a fact. It's normal that an hetero woman isn't attracted to women and femininity and won't find you appealing. It is just about their sexuality, no you. The same as you cannot be into a guy even if he's hot and nice. They got the misfortunate to straight and not able to enjoy you.Go for lesbian and bi women :)

    [–]oofreesouloo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    you're lesbian

    [–]florasis 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Yeah, last time I checked I was pretty much lesbian lol

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Honestly as another femme that sounds like a blessing and a curse.

    [–]oofreesouloo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    True true haha :P

    [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    For my personal experience, straight women tend to like butch women MUCH more than femme women

    Damn, this has not been my experience at all lol. Growing up I heard straight women say only negative things about butch women, and then say that all lesbians are butch and not realize femme lesbians exist.

    [–]oofreesouloo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I was referring to the straight women who support Lgb(t). Straight women who are homophobic tend to be shitty with butch or femme women, but as femmes "blend in", butch do get lots of homophobia crap like I said

    [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Ah, ok. Makes sense. I guess I have never talked with straight women much about my sexuality.

    [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I’ve personally found that as soon as a woman finds out you are a lesbian she sees you as someone who may find her potentially attractive and sort of stops being able to pick up on actual signs of attraction because of it. Lol.

    I think we do get filed into a “man category” of a sort, in their brains. I think it would happen sooner with butches, but it is common to most lesbians.

    [–]florasis 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    So true.

    [–]carrotcake 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I've personally never experienced it, but i can totally see it happening. I think it may be a mix of homophobia and their experiences with men. Straight woman tend to mention their bf whenever they're talking to a man they just met because they know that otherwise this guy will see her as a potential target. They probably think lesbians act the same way as straight men because we also like woman. Add homophobia to that and this kind of situation will be even more likely to happen.

    [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Most of the time straight women find me repulsive. I've even seen them grab their man's hand or move closer to him when they see me approaching their vicinity.

    [–]Innisfree[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    When they jerk away they don't see you, they see some otherworldly concoction of misinformation, stereotypes and fears that have sprung up in their brains like weeds in the dark. That's for sure!

    [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

    Well put Edgar Allen Poe lol. That's going to stay with me.

    [–]Innisfree[S] 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    Ahaha, I do turn into him as I get sleepy. How did you know? Lol

    [–]lairacunda 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I know, isn't that hilarious? I look and laugh when that happens.

    [–]lairacunda 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    I'm not sure if this is true or not but here's a theory.

    Lesbians, especially life-long lesbians, are a lot less guarded with women than straight women would be. So there we are, having a relaxed, casual conversation or small talk with another woman and of course we get clocked. The straight woman interprets the relaxed manner as a... testing of the waters on our part. They don't understand that there's nothing more to it and it's just the way we are.

    Also, a lot of straight women won't do anything without first checking in with their owner that's why every other word is "my husband/boyfriend". They could set the terms of their lives but instead they let the man do it for them.

    [–]Innisfree[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    the straight woman interprets the relaxed manner as a... testing of the waters on our part.

    Now that I think of it, I used to try and project this "relaxed, polite, friendly" attitude around straight women - but really in an effort to reassure them that I'm not interested. And I think some of them may have misread it as interest on my part. Ironic... :)

    Edit: a word

    [–]emilyprentiss 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I can only speak for myself. As a femme, I am never clocked as a lesbian just by appearance. But once I open my mouth, it's obvious.

    This girl who was my acquaintance at university, she's feminine, but I got a gay vibe from her quite early on. And maybe my own gay energy began to radiate as a response, because halfway through the term, she began to talk about her boyfriend for five minutes each time we met up to study. It didn't feel like it was 'girl talk', it felt like she was reminding me she had a boyfriend. Once, she even brought him with her while we studied, and he was just on his phone.

    Then I found her on Instagram and she had a rainbow emoji in her bio, so I guess she's bisexual or something. But I just found it so random, the repeated 'I have a boyfriend' talk.