Why do feminists love bdsm and sex work so much?? How someone can be this brainwashed to not see that this is opressive to women??

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[–]worried19 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

I don't understand how women can want to be beaten and degraded and dominated by men. Do they really hate themselves that much? Do they consciously view themselves as inferior, or is it all subconscious? How can you date a man who beats you and calls you filthy names and believe that the same man actually loves and respects you?

I just don't get it. And most of the women who are into this shit weren't raised watching men beat women. Most of them were taught that decent and honorable men should not hit women. So they have no excuse, in my opinion. Abuse survivors are one thing. But the women who were never hurt or touched by anyone in childhood or adolescence have zero excuse to encourage others to abuse them and call it fun and normal and healthy.

[–]Camberian 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Firstly, women in BDSM do not automatically get assigned some passive (submissive, masochistic, bottom) role by the BDSM community. When women (and men) enter the community, they choose their own roles, and among those who experience their affinity early, the spread is even. You get about as many men and women into active and passive roles, and also a large number of people who switch roles regularly.

The disparity is somewhere else: more people (both men AND women) prefer passive roles, rather than active roles.

Secondly, of course you don't "get it". To understand BDSM you'd have to first acknowledge that this is a(n often sexual) affinity to certain physical and psychological sensations people of either sex experience involuntarily, yet live out fully consensually. They do not have a choice about whether or not they have that affinity.

The other thing you need to grasp is that people feel satisfied, feel better when able to live out their predilection. I've whipped both men and women, and - apart from minor physiological differences - both react similar and both physically and mentally ENJOY what I do. Just as much as I enjoy it.

By the way, I do not knowingly play with abuse or rape victims, I do not consider BDSM a means for therapy (this appears to be a very American thing), and I suggest to fellow players who have abuse or rape in their past, that before they engage in BDSM they should get therapy.

Lastly, as long as you view BDSM as an extension of abuse or rape, instead for what it is, you actively keep yourself from any chance of understanding it. Or in other words, you behave exactly like people used to behave towards lesbians and homosexuals before they became civilised enough to acknowledge that this is nothing people can stop themselves from being or doing or wanting.

[–]worried19 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Given that these are your beliefs, I don't see how you can consider yourself a radical feminist.

That's all I've got to say.

[–]wheelyfebfem 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

supporting bdsm is counteractive to being a radical feminist. Bdsm is inherently toxic as it romanticizes abuse. It's disgusting even on a radfem form you find defenders of it here.

[–]Camberian 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Why would me being a BDSMer negate my radical feminism? The radical feminism I live, respects the aspects of people they can't and need not change. I can't change the fact that I am female any more than I can change the fact that I am a BDSMer.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I mean, radical feminism opposes what you are doing. I don't want to get into some big argument about whether you were born that way because I highly doubt you could be convinced otherwise, but the stripe of feminism you're claiming to follow doesn't match with that belief.

[–]Portrynial 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I can see both sides of this. I'm also into playing the domme/bdsm role (only with men, I can't imagine wanting a woman to play a sub) and at the same time I'm getting more interested in radical feminism, because it's the only kind of feminism that actually cares about women and our serious issues.

Just speaking for myself, I don't know if I could be called a radical feminist, I don't know if I fit perfectly due to morale. But maybe that imperfection shouldn't get in the way of dealing with those more serious issues. I could be wrong.

But I don't think it's productive to complain to radical feminists about their non-acceptance of bdsm. It's understandable how they're against it, they're allowed to disagree. Whether they agree with your fetish is not a serious issue. And women are already always being told they're wrong for what they believe in. In recent times, there's already a mainstream acceptance of kinks. So there probably isn't a need to convince a small minority that disagrees.

I personally don't consider my kinks "empowering" or a form of feminism. I see them similar to enjoying drinking beer or smoking. Not every lifestyle choice needs to be praised.

I actually agree with a lot of reasons for being anti-kink. In theory, bdsm can be "safe, sane and consensual" as they used to say. That's how I want it to be, too.

But aside from that, most of the modern bdsm "community", and in real experiences, tends to be gross guys trying to push the boundaries of women, or get away with abusing them. A lot of what they claim to be consent, might not actually be consent. I don't believe people who make it sound like all bdsm is fine.

I've seen so many examples of this in porn titles, and how people talk about the topic online. Also how "vanilla" is now considered prudish. Judging it like that, creates an atmosphere of boundary pushing.

A lot of men into bdsm have an instant assumption that women are supposed to be "submissives." Some guys who call themselves "doms" will contact female doms, to try to convince the female dom that she should instead be a sub. I've experienced this.

I think the pro-kink outlook was supposed to be, that there's nothing wrong with you if you find something erotic, that may be considered strange. As long as it's not illegal or doesn't harm anyone. It's to help people feel comfortable with their sexuality, especially if they're surrounded by an uncomfortably conservative community.

However, gross males have still turned bdsm into something repulsive, most of the time. I suspect most of that community is toxic.

I assume that it's not comparatively that important to argue for your private interest in consensual kinks. There are more important issues. It would be more important to argue for pro-abortion rights, for protecting women from violence.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree with a lot of what you say. I'm not the fucking bedroom police, but it's annoying how BDSM apologists come out of the woodwork any time a woman dares to criticize what they do, even on a radical feminist sub. Liberal feminists already won. They've already conquered the mainstream. They've already convinced the world that women are born submissive and that there's nothing even slightly problematic with men beating women in a sexual context as long as the so-called magical "consent" is involved. The fact that they keep digging the knife in over and over is just insult to injury.

Young girls are already doomed because they've been convinced by porn that this is their nature. That if a man wants to choke them or slap them around, there's nothing wrong with him, and that any woman who believes otherwise doesn't understand it's just "fun and games." I had people on Reddit tell me I was crazy, tell me that I was in the wrong because I said I would not tolerate domination or violence. I was called a prude, I was told I "have issues," I was made to feel that I was insane for saying I would file charges on a sex partner who strangled me or hit me without my consent. That's how normalized it is. That the proper response to a man hitting you or wrapping his hands around your throat is to meekly say "no" and accept what he did, rather than hold him accountable for what is a legally considered an assault.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We got to the point where loving, sensual and affectionate sex without any type of abuse is considered boring and 'vanilla" :)

[–]Portrynial 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I agree. That's messed up that people said that stuff to you! Obviously you don't "have issues" just because you're against violence. I am sick of people. They can't just make it a rule that everything goes, and you're a prude if you're not ok with that. That is some creepy gaslighting. Anyone who assumes it's ok to assault a woman because it's supposed to be no big deal, it's just "bdsm." Without even asking her if she wants that "bdsm" play, that's committing literal violence.

[–]forwardback 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't much care what consenting adults do sexually, but the proselytizing has to stop. Porn should have warnings; BDSM porn should absolutely be adult ONLY. Else, "the well is being poisoned". BDSM should never be set as mainstream - it's fringe, and making children and (idiot) adults think it's normal and expected behavior is perverse. Women have suffered and died, and men had walked scott-free for murder using the defense of "rough sex". The word "shameful" doesn't cover it.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

One woman i know said that it help her with her trauma(rape) and it made me think that a lot of women are masochisric because thwy have been traumatized or secualized by men and it makes me do sad like for ughhhhh

Then maybe men should stop fucking raping and traumatizing people????? By everytime i say this women get so angry at me lmao

[–]Maryam 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think its that weve been thoroughly lied to and our lives have been filled with layers upon layers of bullshit about men that the women who can slightly smell the coffee (but are still brainwashed) are the ones traumatized by them, and who cope with their traumas by things like these.

[–]questioningtw 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Because new feminism is obsessed with choice. When you point out the misogyny in BDSM they will say same sex BDSM exists as well as femdom-malesub. Ignoring the fact BDSM is not healthy sexuality and it is not normal to normalize abuse. Pretty much all feminists including now sex pozzies like Jessica Valanti and Jill Fillovici were anti porn and prostitution. They got bullied online by the pro sex work lobby and changed their stance to sex work is work instead of standing their ground. It drives me crazy at how people pleasing and milqtoast modern feminism is.

[–]VioletRemi 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, because those women clearly have sooooo much choice. I remember them defending of women being beaten by rocks and wearing burquas, as "it is their religion and their choice". I am pretty sure if those women had real choice, they'd chose not to be beaten by rocks at all. Because if choice is "you will suffer something bad OR you will suffer something much worse. Now chose between the two" - it is NOT a chiuce.

[–]questioningtw 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah if women just loooooove burqas so much then why are we not seeing a ton of non Muslim women wanting to wear them? In fact, i honestly think most women prefer to look sharp and attractive, not covered up in ugly garb. And choosing to be stoned just throws me in a rage.

[–]slayeroftruth 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Choice" feminisms that promotes nothing but submit to licking man boot is the reason. They were choose for mainstream over radicals for this reason. That's why men love it so much. These feminist's teach girls, teens and women to be sexually submissive for men to their detriment. Liking BDSM does not make it healthy. It does not mean you should not question nothing about it. The "choice" crowd acts as if everything we enjoy is good for us. Men do BDSM to be abusive. Why do you think its been used to get off of murder? I don't believe for second men don't do BDSM to abuse women.

[–]Camberian 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was born with my BDSM affinity. It is a trait a lot of us BDSMers are born with, not just human beings either. You find variations of that in many species.

By the way, the assumption that women are submissives/masochists and men dominants/sadists is idiotic. That is pure porn industry nonsense. I'm female and I'm a sadist, not a sub or maso. I'm in good and numerous company, a lot of women are - one way or other - tops (active roles in BDSM), just as a lot of men are bottoms (passive roles in BDSM).

The distribution of males and females amongst tops and bottoms is, when you look at BDSMers who come by their BDSM preference early in their lives (I was four years old when I knew what I am), quite even. I'm not denying that - especially among those who enter BDSM late and as sort of a lifestyle choice or from a merely erotic angle - there is a disparity between the numbers of men and women seeking passive and active roles. I also don't disagree with the idea that this can be and probably is largely caused by traditional gender roles, just like a lot of social roles and behaviour.

However, that doesn't mean that BDSM affinities actually are spread uneven. They aren't. It also doesn't mean that BDSM is negative or a result of brainwashing. You could just as well claim that being a lesbian is something society brainwashes into women.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reading this makes me wonder how many straight men exists that are subs and even if they did they would probably never admit it cause that would obviously be the fault of feminism that are ruining the men and the western civilization. I don't remember the post but I think it was about a dad laughing when he caught his young child watching porn and treating it as a harmless funny adorable thing which fucking baffled me. As someone who never visits porn sites because quite frankly never needed it, seeing pornhubs front page displaying infront of my eyes with all the demeaning titles such as choking, beating, ass slapping, "dominating", the teen categories and the million of views they get plus reminding myself that a lot of teens and kids that watch these and their parents treating it as nothing more than a normal thing that kids need because they hit puberty, only will get worse over time and normalizes the shit out of basically misogyny porn.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't know how many hold this belief but, if men are dominant by nature and that can be observed with many other species as well, I don't think that women are the way they are because of socialization. I believe the majority of them are submissive by nature, even the ones that are not into bdsm and choking or whatever.

[–]Portrynial 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh hell no we're not submissive by nature. Actually I suspect that the dominant/submissive dichotomy (outside of fantasy) isn't real. It's more like a psychotic male fantasy that they turned into a social norm. The natural state of women might be neutral instead of either one. And neutral might be interpreted as "submissive" in a masculine-obsessed world. Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTyQgwVvYyc

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Moids have definitely reinforced the submissive role whether its societal or not. I don't know , I happen to be very pessimistic in this regard, all the experiences I've had with other women doesn't help since it only strengthens that belief on me.

Regarding the video , I still believe most social animals often fall into a definite hierarchy. Primates, wolves, and lions all have a definite “alpha” that eats first, has the majority of sex, competes with other males and asserts dominance over others.

However, seeing the like and dislike ratio gave me a chuckle, men no matter what will always be insecure about their cocksimping culture

[–]Portrynial 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see it differently. I would not call the lion who eats first an "alpha." I would call it a psychopathic male who's abusing the females, even if it's just an animal. It reminds me of an idea someone said back in reddit's pinkpill or blackpill threads. That even in nature, males have almost exclusively existed to act as parasites to the females. From simpler organisms (I forgot what the examples were) to everything else.

Other animal species have a more cooperative social hierarchy that's instead based on the family, with the mother and father obviously as the leader. The best hierarchies are probably based on placing the oldest and wisest creature as the leader, like in elephant matriarchies. https://seaworld.org/animals/all-about/elephants/behavior The male elephants do compete with each other, but their smaller groups are socially unstable.