Joseph Rosenbaum was convicted for the molestation and rape of five separate boys between the ages of 9 and 11. Someone want you to know he was practicing Judaism.

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PART 1

/u/horrux

Oh okay... you want to debunk this then? And even Torah justice is ridiculous. A Jew rapes a women without her consent, they go to court. Under a sanhedrin the man would have to say sorry and then marry her for life and never divorce her. JUSTICE.

You wonder why Ultra-orthodox Jews have to suck the genitals of infants penis after circumcision, or that there is rampant pedophilia in the Jewish religious community, not much different than the Catholic community.

We are told there is a movement afoot to make pederasty (child-adult sex) socially acceptable and legally permissible. Researching the issue, we find that many dominant voices on both sides of the controversy are Jewish.

How is this possible?

Talmud law permits sexual intercourse between children and adults. This doctrine is contained in a number of Mishnahs. Before we examine them, however, it is necessary that the reader be familiar with the word kethubah.

According to the Soncino Talmud Glossary:

KETHUBAH (Lit., 'a written [document]'); (a) a wife's marriage settlement which she is entitled to recover on her being divorced or on the death of her husband. The minimum settlement for a virgin is two hundred zuz, and for a widow remarrying one hundred zuz; (b) the marriage contract specifying the mutual obligations between husband and wife and containing the amount of the endowment and any other special financial obligations assumed by the husband.

--- Babylonian Talmud, Soncino Talmud Glossary

Zuz is a unit of currency. We see, then, that a dollar (or zuz) value is put on virginity.

Now let's look at a Mishnah from Kethuboth 11a:

MISHNAH. WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN (7) HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH (8) A LITTLE GIRL, (9) OR WHEN A SMALL BOY (10) HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR [WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY] INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD (11) — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ] …

---Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kethuboth 11a Soncino 1961 Edition, page 57

The translator, Rabbi Dr. Samuel Daiches, amplifies the text with footnotes:

A man who was of age. Lit., 'who came on'. Less than three years old. Less than nine years of age. Lit., 'One who was injured by wood', as a result of which she injured the hymen.

Let's review the above-cited Mishnah: "When a grown-up man has had sexual intercourse with a little girl, or when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman …" It is obvious that sex activity between a grown man and a little girl, and between a grown woman and a little boy, is a part of the woof and the warp of everyday Talmud life; such relationships, in the eyes of the Sages, are unremarkable. There is no prohibition on sexual activity between adults and young children — it is simply regulated. Recall the words of the Very Reverend the Chief Rabbi of the British Empire the late Dr. Joseph Herman Hertz:

Religion in the Talmud attempts to penetrate the whole of human life with the sense of law and right. Nothing human is in its eyes mean or trivial; everything is regulated and sanctified by religion. Religious precept and duty accompany man from his earliest years to the grave and beyond it. They guide his desires and actions at every moment.

--- Rabbi Dr. Hertz

Babylonian Talmud, "Foreword," Seder Nezikin Vol. I, pages xxv-xxvi

Thus, if the Talmud permits girls three years old and younger to be sexually used by adults, that is the law. The concern of the Sages is to ensure that the adult is not, technically speaking, in violation of any of the rules.

In the Gemara that follows the Mishnah of Kethuboth 11a (cited above), the Sages discuss the issues. They say having intercourse with a girl younger than three is like putting a finger in the eye. Rabbi Dr. Daiches explains in the footnotes that, just as tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years.

GEMARA. Rab Judah said that Rab said: A small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood. (1) When I said it before Samuel he said: 'Injured by a piece of wood' does not apply to (2) flesh. Some teach this teaching by itself: (3) [As to] a small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman, Rab said, he makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood; whereas Samuel said: 'Injured by a piece of wood' does not apply to flesh. R. Oshaia objected: WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN HAS HAD INTERCOURSE WITH A LITTLE GIRL, OR WHEN A SMALL BOY HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]; SO ACCORDING TO R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY: A GIRL WHO WAS INJURED ACCIDENTALLY BY A PIECE OF WOOD — HER KETHUBAH IS A MANEH! (4) Raba said, It means (5) this: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this, (6) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye; (7) but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as 'a girl who is injured by a piece of wood,' and [with regard to the case of] 'a girl injured by a piece of wood,' itself, there is the difference of opinion between R. Meir and the Sages.

--- Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kethuboth 11b Soncino 1961 Edition, page 57-58

Rabbi Dr. Samuel Daiches amplifies the text with footnotes (page 58):

Although the intercourse of a small boy is not regarded as a sexual act, nevertheless the woman is injured by it as by a piece of wood.
Lit., 'is not in'.
I.e., the difference of opinion between Rab and Samuel with regard to that question was recorded without any reference to R. Judah.
The Sages differ only with regard to a girl injured by a piece of wood, but not with regard to a small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman. This shows that the latter case cannot be compared with the former case. The Mishnah would consequently be against Rab and for Samuel.
Lit., 'says'.
Lit., 'here', that is, less than three years old.
I.e., tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years. Cf. Nid. 45a.

To a person unaccustomed with the Talmud culture, it may seem that discussion of sexual intercourse between grown men and very young girls is merely theoretical. But as we shall see, cases are cited, judgments are weighed and debated, and the Sages discuss the wounds suffered by the young girls as a result of the intercourse.

MISHNAH. A WOMAN PROSELYTE, A WOMAN CAPTIVE, AND A WOMAN SLAVE, WHO HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, CONVERTED, OR FREED [WHEN THEY WERE] LESS THAN THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY OLD — THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]. AND THERE IS WITH REGARD TO THEM THE CLAIM OF [NON-]VIRGINITY. (17)

---- Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kethuboth 11a Soncino 1961 Edition, page 54

This seems like a generous and humanitarian ruling, the creation of a legal fiction of virginity when the woman is no longer physiologically a virgin. But Dr. Daiches corrects us. He tells us that, according to the Sages, the hymen of a girl younger than three literally grows back again.

If they had sexual intercourse before they were three years and one day old the hymen would grow again, and they would be virgins. V. 9a and 11b and cf. Nid. 44b and 45a.

--- Rabbi Dr. Daiches

[–]Jesus[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 3 years ago* (2 children)

PART 2

See also the discussion of Niddah 44b and 45a, below.

As we continue to explore the Talmud doctrines on child-adult sex, we will see further confirmation that the Talmud Sages believed that the hymen regenerates in a girl younger than three.

"… Of Lesser Age, No Guilt is Incurred"

In modern America, sex between an adult and a child is condemned in proportion to the youth of the child. That is, Americans generally consider sex with a fifteen year old, a twelve year old, a six year old, and a three-year-old on a continuous scale of condemnation. The younger the child, the greater the condemnation.

Talmudic law works on the reverse scale: sex with younger children is less significant than sex with older children. How did this doctrine come about?

Scripture states thus:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

The Old Testament prohibits a man lying with a man; but notice, the Old Testament does not prohibit a man lying with a boy. Thus, the Talmud Sages arrive at their position on pederasty. In the following, bestiality said to be committed "naturally" when a man uses the vaginal passage of the beast, and "unnaturally" when a man uses the anal passage of the beast. The Sages make a similar distinction for the couplings of a woman with a beast.

GEMARA. … Rab said: Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that. Samuel said: Pederasty with a child below three years is not treated as with a child above that. What is the basis of their dispute? — Rab maintains that only he who is able to engage in sexual intercourse, may, as the passive subject of pederasty throw guilt [upon the active offender]; whilst he who is unable to engage in sexual intercourse cannot be a passive subject of pederasty [in that respect]. But Samuel maintains: Scripture writes, [And thou shalt not lie with mankind] as with the lyings of a woman. (4)

It has been taught in accordance with Rab: Pederasty at the age of nine years and a day; [55a] [he] who commits bestiality, whether naturally or unnaturally; or a woman who causes herself to be bestially abused, whether naturally or unnaturally, is liable to punishment.

— Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 54b - 55a; Soncino 1961 Edition, page 371

The translator, Rabbi Dr. H. Freedman, amplifies the text with footnotes. Note particularly footnote 2: "… but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is incurred." See also the final sentence of footnote 5: "… nine years (and a day) is the minimum age of the passive partner for the adult to be liable." (See Soncino Talmud Glossary for definition of Baraitha.)

I.e., Rab makes nine years the minimum; but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is incurred. Samuel makes three the minimum.

At nine years a male attains sexual matureness.

Lev. XVIII, 22. Thus the point of comparison is the sexual matureness of woman, which is reached at the age of three.

(Rashi reads [H] instead of the [H] in our printed texts. A male, aged nine years and a day who commits etc.] There are thus three distinct clauses in this Baraitha. The first — a male aged nine years and a day — refers to the passive subject of pederasty, the punishment being incurred by the adult offender. This must be its meaning — because firstly, the active offender is never explicitly designated as a male, it being understood, just as the Bible states, Thou shalt not lie with mankind, where only the sex of the passive participant is mentioned; and secondly, if the age reference is to the active party, the guilt being incurred by the passive adult party, why single out pederasty: in all crimes of incest, the passive adult does not incur guilt unless the other party is at least nine years and a day? Hence the Baraitha supports Rab's contention that nine years (and a day) is the minimum age of the passive partner for the adult to be liable.

The plain English meaning of the Talmud text is clear, but if there is any doubt, the Soncino scholars put the matter to rest: No guilt is incurred with a boy child younger than nine, even in incest. Thus we see that Orthodox Jewish doctrines concerning homosexuality are not accurately represented by Dr. Laura and other Orthodox spokesmen.

Out of Context?

When quoted, those passages in Tractate Sanhedrin 54b and 55a are sometimes said to be taken out of context. Theologian James Trimm is one who makes this protest.(6) But now the full context of Sanhedrin 54b and 55a — and indeed, the complete Sanhedrin — is available to the readers of Come and Hear™.

Rabbi Michael Rodkinson, whose English translation of the Talmud was republished in 1918, censored the Sages' teaching on this issue. The 1918 Edition of Rabbi Rodkinson's Talmud was published under the editorship of Rabbi Dr. I. M. Wise, the pioneer of Reform Judaism. Rabbi Rodkinson explains his censorship in a footnote:

We deem it expedient not to translate about two pages of the text preceding the next Mishna, treating of miserable crimes with men and animals, and giving the discussion with questions and answers, it would be undesirable to express in the English language …

--- Rabbi Rodkinson

For further discussion, see "Rabbi Rodkinson Censors the Talmud" in Do Not Censor the Talmud, Please.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/censorship_1.html#rodkinson

Censorship, expurgation, and denial of the clear and obvious meaning of basic religious text do not help inter-religious understanding. It does not help people of different religions understand each others' faiths.

The lack of reliable authoritative information on the doctrines of Judaic law is a significant problem as American society and law becomes more Talmudized. Such information gaps can cause unwanted societal consequences.

America Is Rapidly Becoming Talmudized

In 1999, the Supreme Court agreed to consider an amicus brief based wholly on Talmudic law (see Sentence and Execution).

In November 2002, the American Orthodox Jewish community held a kosher dinner in the Supreme Court building to celebrate the establishment of the National Institute for Judaic Law.(31) The dinner was attended by 200 people, including three Supreme Court Justices. The purpose of the Institute is to introduce Talmudic laws into the US legal system and law schools.

It is thus the clear civic duty of every American to become intimately acquainted with the Talmud. Read articles at:

Death Penalty: http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/capunish_1.html

Kosher Dinner: http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/cp-jp-11-09-2002 and http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/cp-jw-01-08-03

In Tractate Niddah, again there is approval for priests to marry and copulate with baby girls. This passage describes a situation in which a priest dies without children, leaving a three-year-old widow. In such case, the priest's brother (the yebam) can acquire the girl by having sexual intercourse with her. The ellipsis (…) in the following Mishna indicates the omission of non-germane text. The full text is available through the link at the Come and Hear™ link, below.

MISHNAH. A GIRL OF THE AGE OF THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY MAY BE BETROTHED BY INTERCOURSE; … IF SHE WAS MARRIED TO A PRIEST, SHE MAY EAT TERUMAH.

--- Babylonian Talmud Tractate Niddah 44b Soncino 1961 Edition, page 308

MISHNAH. A GIRL OF THE AGE OF THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY MAY BE BETROTHED BY INTERCOURSE; … IF ONE WAS YOUNGER THAN THIS AGE INTERCOURSE WITH HER IS LIKE PUTTING A FINGER IN THE EYE.

--- Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Niddah 44b Soncino 1961 Edition, page 309

MISHNAH. IF A YOUNG GIRL, WHOSE AGE OF MENSTRUATION HAS NOT YET ARRIVED, MARRIED, BETH SHAMMAI RULED: SHE IS ALLOWED FOUR NIGHTS, AND BETH HILLEL RULED: UNTIL THE WOUND IS HEALED.

--- abylonian Talmud, Tractate Niddah 64b Soncino 1961 Edition, page 454

Old Fashioned Torah Rules

At a time when Americans are displaying an ever-increasing interest in all things Jewish — from kabbala to Senator Joseph Lieberman to "Kosher Sex" — Dr. Laura is the most popular source for a healthy dose of Jewish nagging, guilt trips and what she presents as lessons in good old-fashioned Torah values.

"Orthodox Group Honors Dr. Laura," Forward: http://www.forward.com/issues/2001//01.03.02/news6.html

We have seen in Numbers 31:12-18 that Moses permitted grown men to use little girls as concubines. In the Talmud, grown men are permitted to have sexual intercourse with female babies and children, and homosexual relations with boys younger than nine.

Those "good old fashioned Torah values" are not quite as Christian America remembers them.

In the following passage, the Sages discuss the use of contraception. All the Sages agree that a wife younger than eleven — a wife who is too young to become pregnant — is required to carry on "marital intercourse" in the normal manner. Recall that those brides can be as young as three, and sometimes younger

GEMARA. … Three classes of woman may use an absorbent (1) in their marital intercourse: (2) A minor, and an expectant and a nursing mother. The minor,(3) because otherwise she might become pregnant and die. An expectant mother, (3) because otherwise she might cause her foetus to degenerate into a sandal. (4) A nursing mother, (3) because otherwise she might have to wean her child prematurely, (5) and this would result in his death. And what is the age of such a 'minor'? (6) From the age of eleven years and one day to the age of twelve years and one day. One who is under (7) or over this age (8) must carry on her marital intercourse in a normal manner; so R. Meir. But the Sages ruled: The one as well as the other carries on her marital intercourse in a normal manner and mercy (9) will be vouchsafed from heaven, for it is said in Scripture, The Lord preserveth the simple (10) …

--- Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Niddah 45a Soncino 1961 Edition, page 311

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PART 3

A report in the Baltimore Jewish Times in February 2000 gives an account of a custody dispute in Italy. Moshe and Tali Dulberg (sometimes "Dolberg"), Israeli citizens living in Genoa, were divorced. Custody of the couple's two girls was initially given to the mother, Tali. In 1996, Tali was converted to Orthodox Judaism and remarried. Moshe brought suit for custody of the daughters, asserting that Tali, as an Orthodox Jew, was now unfit to care for the girls. The court awarded custody to the father. When arguing the case, Moshe presented to the court the findings of two psychologists. The Baltimore Jewish Times states of the psychologists:

They charged Orthodox Judaism views "exploitation and cruelty to minors as legitimate … and perverted behavior as normal." They compared Orthodox parents to drug addicts in their inability to serve as a "loving source of affection" for their children.

The court, guided by the assumption that the lifestyle of normal Italian children is self-evidently better, characterized the Lubavitch movement, through which Tali originally became religious, as a "totalitarian sect."

Thus, Mr. Dulberg won absolute authority over all educational decisions involving Nitzan and Danielle, with the explicit goal that they be exposed to the full range of Italian culture and a "normal life."

"Mortara Affair Revisited," Jewish Media Resources from Baltimore Jewish Times http://www.jewishmediaresources.org/article/264

Note the abbreviated nature of the Baltimore Jewish Times coverage. The Times presents only the psychologists' conclusions and infers the Italians are bigots. However, the court must have seen the psychologists' evidence and arguments, and the court must have been convinced. The Times does not describe the Orthodox Jewish doctrines and practices that prompted the psychologists' concerns.

Nathan Lewin, an Orthodox Jewish Washington, DC lawyer, and Rabbi Raphael Butler, the executive Vice President of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America ("Orthodox Union") at that time, arranged a meeting at the Italian Embassy in Washington, DC to protest the Genoa ruling. Mr. Lewin and Rabbi Butler should have been familiar with the details of the psychologists' testimony and the court's decision. They should have known the doctrines and the practices that worried the psychologists, and they should have been direct and forthright in correcting the record if the psychologists and the court were in error. Even if the psychologists offered no arguments or evidence to support their conclusions and the court reached its decision in the absence of information, Mr. Lewin and Rabbi Butler should have been quick to point out the folly.

Mr. Lewin wrote a follow-up letter summarizing the visit.(42) According to Mr. Lewin's account, neither he nor Rabbi Butler addressed the court's concern. Instead, Mr. Lewin and Rabbi Butler changed the subject: They charged that, in coming to its decision, the Italian court violated the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. (We met Nathan Lewin in Sentence and Execution,[40] and watched him misrepresent Talmud death penalty law in the brief he wrote and presented to the US Supreme Court.)

Rabbi Butler's Orthodox Union also organized a letter-writing campaign targeting Italian public officials. A prepared letter was posted on the Orthodox Union web page.(43) A review of the letter reveals the same scarcity of information: It contains no specifics concerning the doctrines or practices that worried the psychologists, and no attempt to demonstrate that their concerns are misplaced or in error. Instead, the Orthodox Union urges supporters to protest the "injustice" of the ruling, and to scold the Italians for violating the UN International Convention on the Rights of the Child.

The following Italian officials are targeted:

Mayor of Venice Massimo Cacciani
Office of the Minister of Justice Min. Oliviero Diliberto
Min. Lamberto Dini
Fabrizio Rende
Ambassador Sergio Vento
Counsellor Mauro Politi
Ambassador Ferdinando Salleo
President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi
Prime Minister Massimo D'Alema

From the Orthodox Jewish perspective, surely this strategy is unwise. If the mother's case has merit, her case should be fought on its merit. But instead, Orthodox Jewry is organizing a letter-writing campaign to sway the judge and public officials with political pressure.

In November 1999, Capt. Dr. Sharon, Israeli psychologist and captain in the Israeli Defense Force (IDF), wrote a report supporting the mother's case. Like Mr. Lewin and Rabbi Butler, Capt. Dr. Sharon does not address any specifics: He makes no attempt to discuss the psychologists' arguments or which Judaic doctrines and practices caused the concern, and he makes no attempt to show their concerns were misplaced. Like Mr. Lewin and Rabbi Butler, Capt. Dr. Sharon changes the subject and claims the court's decision violated the UN's convention on The Rights of the Child.

What can a rational, unbiased observer conclude? If the Italian psychologists' concerns are based on misinformation about Orthodox Judaism, the representatives of Orthodox Judaism (and the Israeli psychologist) should correct the misinformation. But since the material issues are being avoided, what should a reasonable person conclude?

Could the psychologists be worried about the Talmud laws and doctrines we have discussed in Sex with Children by Talmud Rules? If so, how can issues concerning child welfare be settled unless people are forthright about their religious beliefs? How can people of different faiths come to an understanding if there is a lack of candor?

Post Script: In an ironic sequel, Rabbi Raphael Butler, Vice President of the Orthodox Union, was forced to retire over a child sex abuse case. This from the Star-Ledger of January 23, 2001:

Sex scandal fallout ends rabbi-exec's career 01/23/01

Quoted:

The sex and abuse scandal that has laid waste to the reputation of a prominent Bergen County rabbi has now claimed the career of the chief executive of the largest Orthodox Jewish organization in the world.

Rabbi Raphael Butler of Queens resigned Friday as executive vice president of the Manhattan-based Orthodox Union, less than a month after a special investigative commission found that inaction at the top of the organization allowed decades of abuse by Rabbi Baruch Lanner of Fair Lawn to continue unchecked.

The resignation took effect immediately, and there was no attempt to sugarcoat it as the Orthodox Union made it clear that Butler quit because he was one of the leaders who knew about Lanner's activities long before they were made public.

Lanner was found to have abused — sexually, physically and emotionally — teenagers entrusted to his care while he ran the New Jersey region of the National Conference of Synagogue Youth, the Orthodox Union's youth organization, and worked at two New Jersey yeshivas, both of them high schools.

Criminal investigations into Lanner's activities in Bergen and Monmouth counties are continuing.

source & full story: http://www.njo.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/jersey/ledger/121f0f2.html

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