all 9 comments

[–][deleted]  (8 children)


    [–]FoxySDT 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    This is not even true. Meta-analysis found that immigration has small negative effect on native wages.

    A 1 percentage pointincrease in the proportion of immigrants in the labour force lowers wages acrossthe investigated studies by only 0.119%

    Immigration may have positive economic impact when we are talking about European immigrants only but there is no reason to allow others to come.

    [–]Vegethu[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    ration may have positive economic impact when we are t

    Actually it doesnt account just for European immigrants, this data includes immigrants from Mexico, the Middle-East and other non-European countries. Immigration only negatively impacts High School drop outs and only by a marginal amount. I did'nt say there were no negatives but they definitely dont outweigh the benefits.

    Tons of immigrants from non-white countries benefit this country in massive ways. Just look at Nigerians. According to the United Census Bureau, 4 percent of Nigerians hold a PhD. degree compared to 1% of the general US population. Nigerian Americans are a highly educated and well-skilled group of people and perhaps one of the more prosperous ethnic groups in the US.

    [–]FoxySDT 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Actually it doesnt account just for European immigrants, this data includes immigrants from Mexico, the Middle-East and other non-European countries.

    Okay but they didn't distinguish between them. They didn't analyze effect of Mexicans, Africans, Asians,... on education, wages, fiscal impact each separately. This is important because the positive effects of European and Asian immigrants may offset the negative effects of African and Latin American immigrants. They just lumped them all together and proclaimed "Oh look, isn't immigration great?" It could very well be the case that some immigrants are better than others.

    I know this is true for at least for educational attainment, fiscal impact and innovations.

    [–]Vegethu[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    hat about other things like social trust? How do you calculate their worth

    I was actually hoping someone would bring up culture and social cohesion. The was an enormous meta-analysis of 90 cross-sectional studies analyzing relationship between diversity & social cohesion. Vast majority of studies on the subject fail to prove the relationship between two variables. In fact, study finds positive relationship between inter-ethnic contact & trust in ethnically heterogeneous communities. Only contrary data shows small-scale (intra-neighborhood) trust suffers with ethnic heterogeneity in some circumstances, and even then only in America. Plurality of data does not support - and largely contradicts - assertion that diversity hurts social cohesion.

    Here is the meta-analysis that I am referring to:;sa%3DD%26amp;ust%3D1595926849270000%26amp;usg%3DAOvVaw0wrWqGprzyjySQMpSr3wiJ&sa=D&ust=1595926849392000&usg=AFQjCNHsz5W7Ukdy1HgQAJGLCUhG3QmiPA

    I am not sure what you mean when you say "What is the value of an identity in USD?". I'm assuming you mean what does American identity compare to economic prosperity? I agree with the sentiment that economy shouldn't be the only means by which we assess the health of the economy, but it is damn important. As for American identity, i still dont fully understand. What is American identity? It seems to mean different things to diffrent people. An American living in Manhattan might as well come from a different culture or country as an American from Dallas. They would probably disagree much on what it means to be American, but theyre still both American.

    Cultures change constantly and that's not a bad thing, in fact that's a good thing and a sign of progress. The Nordics arent Vikings anymore, in fact quite the opposite if I'm not mistaken, and that's a very good thing.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)


      [–]Vegethu[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I disagree. I would be happy living an amish life.

      What I mean is that there are other factors to consider, such as national happiness, corruption, public health, mental health etc. Also, i dont want to sound rude but it doesn't matter much what YOU would prefer what matters is what the data says about the country as a whole. Also YOU might be happy with that lifestyle but that's not most people.

      You are defining American as "everyone, who lives in the US". My definition is different. I believe, you are not some root-less individual. I believe your identity is interconnected with your surroundings. Your family, your neighbors, your church, etc. all these elements shape your identity. You can not see some person as a pure individual - at the very least, he has a family and they have influenced his life and development.

      Literally the definition of being an American depends on you being a citizen and literally nothing else. Also you didn't confront my original argument.

      The Somali guy might practice the islamic religion and has other cultural traditions and practices than the Englishman

      You could say the same about Catholicism, Judiasm, Protestantism, Christianity and there used to be conflict (mainly because the dominant religious group saw the existence of these groups as a threat to its existence); yet there is no longer any conflict. In fact, Christainity, Judaism and Islam are all related they're all Abrahamic religions that originated in the Middle East and East Africa. Also not all immigrants are non-Christians more than half of Nigerian Americans are Christians and follow Christian values. Mexicans and other Hispanic immigrants are SO Christian that they're Catholic. The vast majority of immigrants coming into the country are of some Christian denominations, and most of those that aren't come from Abrahamic religions.

      For someone, that wants to preserve some sort of cultural heritage, migration of people from other cultural spheres, is obviously problematic.

      If you want to preserve your culture, the existence of other cultures would not get in the way of that. You can still practice your religion, live amongst white people if you want and pass those values down to your kids. No one is saying don't do these things. You can do all of these things and still have Somalian Muslims exist in the country.

      I believe todays culture is worse than the one we had in earlier times.

      By what netric can you determine this? By what standard? And how far back would you go?

      Sure, you might criticise some elements of Viking behavior. I personally am still sad to see, that they are not Vikings any longer. No, I do not want them to raid and rape, but my understanding of Viking culture is rooted in their pre-christian spirituality. I do not see anything wrong in people worshipping their ancestors or some tribal deities in sacred groves.

      I think it's a good thing that Vikings no longer exist precisely because of their slavery, rape, misogyny, homophobia, intolerance, violence, terrorism, lack of empathy or compassion, and all around disgusting behavior. No sensible human being would rather live in those times than now.

      [–]FoxySDT 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      The problems of the meta-analysis you linked has been pointed out here:

      These replication rates aren’t great, but they are also easy to explain. First, many of these studies measured ethnic diversity in a way that would call a half White half Black neighborhood and a half British American half German American neighborhood equally diverse. More specifically, ethnic diversity was often measured as the probability that two randomly selected two people from the same region would be of different ethnics groups were the list of possible ethnic groups included not 3-6 “races” but, rather, 100+ ethnic groups. Thus, many of these studies looked at ethnic, rather than racial, diversity. This is problematic because ethnic groups are far more genetically (and phenotypically) similar than races are. The second problem with this meta-analysis is that many of the studies referenced controlled for the mechanisms by which ethnic diversity might damage social cohesion. For instance, many studies controlled for income inequality and crime. The results of such an analysis will be misleading because ethnic diversity might cause a decrease in social cohesion by causing an increase in crime and income inequality. Thus, many of these studies controlled for the effects of diversity and then concluded that diversity had not effect.

      The worst of these are studies that actually controlled for racial diversity. For instance, Aizlewood and Pendakur (2005) and Andersen and Millligan (2011) both found that the proportion of a neighborhood which is non white negatively correlated with its level of social cohesion but that ethnic diversity had no, or a positive, impact on social cohesion, after controlling for the effects of variation in the size of the population that isn’t white! Several of these studies were counted as “failed replications” by Meet and Tolsma.

      Given the degree to which the deck was stacked against successful replications , the fact that less than 25% of studies clearly failed to replicate Putnam’s finding should be seen as more impressive than it might at first seem.

      Also, there has been a recent meta-analysis which found that diversity has negative impact on social cohesion

      [–]send_nasty_stuff 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      You would have gotten more debate on this if you had posted it in s/debatealtright

      [–]justjoggin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      The Liberian people changed their constitution to explicitly prohibit non blacks from becoming citizens.

      After reading this study, would you say that most of the Liberian people, for example, would be happier if they changed their constitution and allowed a majority-replacing number of educated, innovative, racial-block-voting white people to flood in?

      [–]asterias 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      This happens if (legal) immigrants are scientists looking for work in their field. Which is not what is happening now, especially in Europe.