Can you help debunk these pro-rape porn in animation, drawings and literature arguments? And what are the arguments and evidence in defense of making the production and the watching/reading of rape porn in animation, drawings and literature illegal?

submitted by EverydayIsSad from self.antipornography

I once posted this in the antiporn subreddit but unfortunately got no responses to my questions (the first time I posted the moderator of the subreddit removed it for some reason); https://www.reddit.com/r/antipornography/comments/i50qlp/can_you_help_debunk_these_prorape_porn_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

I thought it would be best to ask them here. Can you help debunk these pro-rape porn in animation, drawings and literature arguments? And what are the arguments and evidence in defense of making the production and the watching/reading of rape porn in animation, drawings and literature illegal?

Argument 1) "if rape porn in animation, drawings and literature gets banned, the rate of rape might increase, and there is no evidence rape porn in animation, drawings and literature has a negative effect on anyone"

In this article; https://cld.fandom.com/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoons

It says the argument that rape porn in animation, drawings and literature incites and encourages rape and contributes to rape has been disputed by the claim that there is no scientific basis for that connection, and that restricting "sexual expression" in drawings, animations and literature might actually increase the rate of rape by eliminating an outlet for desires that could motivate crime.

This is exemplified in a case involving a man, from Virginia who, while arrested after viewing lolicon at a public library computer, asserted that he had quit collecting real child pornography and switched to lolicon

That's for lolicon, what they mean is people that get off on rape porn with real people in them stop watching those things and instead get off on rape porn in animations, drawings and literature which makes them stop raping real people in reality because they get to use fictional characters for self-therapy and imagine themselves raping imaginary characters instead.

This article says rape porn does not increase rape; https://open.lib.umn.edu/socialproblems/chapter/9-5-pornography/

Many scholars conclude that pornography does not have this effect and may even help reduce sexual violence by providing a sexual outlet for men (Diamond, 2009; Weitzer, 2011).

A recent review of the research on pornography and rape concluded that pornography does not increase rape (Ferguson & Hartley, 2009, p. 323): Evidence for a causal relationship between exposure to pornography and sexual aggression is slim

A growing conclusion from the research evidence is that pornography does not lead to violence against women. In addition to this consideration, laws against pornography raise questions of freedom of speech.

What are some good counter-arguments to the "if rape porn in animation, drawings and literature gets banned, the rate of rape might increase" argument?

Argument 2) "rape porn in animations, drawings and literature has no effect in the real world, it's all fiction. People who can not separate fiction from reality have some issues. Rape porn in animations, drawings and literature should not be taken away from the people that can separate fiction from reality and will not go out to do the thing they read and/or watch in animation, drawings, and literature. It would be unfair.

You can not ban rape porn in animation, drawings, and literature on the basis that some people might get encouraged to rape people in reality by watching/reading those things because many people don't act on that urge when watching/reading rape porn and taking that rape porn away from someone that just watches/reads rape porn in animation, drawings and literature for fun but doesn't act on what they watch and read is unfair, they're not going to get encouraged to rape in reality anyway"

Argument 3) "It's not real people. It's just pixels. Real people are not harmed in making this, so drawn/animated rape porn is not illegal, pixels can't rape each other"

Argument 4) "The drawn/animated rape porn is just a fantasy, what's wrong with having a fantasy? By banning drawn/animated rape porn, you're policing others based on what they might do or what they think, that's thought-policing and violates the freedom of speech and freedom of expression of the people that want to create, watch and/or read rape porn in animation, drawings and literature"

Argument 5) "rape porn in animations, drawings and literature have an impact on the real world. Does that mean all movies shouldn't have pets featured in them any more? Does every scene or violence need to come with a disclaimer? For the same reason it's not women's faults for speaking out against porn that causes pro-porn people to be harassed, it's not creatives' fault if people decide to act on what they watch or read in real life with real consequences.

There's also people who create this type of work to begin with (myself included) as a form of self therapy or an outlet for expression and exploration. It doesn't mean we condone rape, obviously."

Can you help debunk those 5 arguments? Thank you.

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[–]firebird 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

An important distinction to make here is which side is talked about. Especially since at one point there's talk of it being self therapy. If it concerns a rape survivor who tries to deals with it by using rape porn from this perspective, that's something entirely different from someone whose fantasy is themselves raping someone.

A second thing that seems important to note is that it is known that porn in general always leads you further down the rabbit hole. You become numb to what you've been watching, and start looking for something more extreme, and this cycle keeps continuing. So even if (and that's a big if) this is just their outlet for now, it won't stay that way. I think there are sources on this phenomenon on this sub, if you're interested.

Third point: by watching this sort of thing, you're normalizing it for yourself. Just look at the abuse portrayed routinely in porn: there's more and more coverage and statistics about men starting to imitate these behaviours in the bedroom, while the women they're with never consented. If porn was merely an outlet, this stuff wouldn't happen.

Fourth: all these arguments essentially hinge on one thing, that having a fantasy of raping someone is somehow just part of someone's sexuality, or a kink, or whatever you want to call it. It is not, since rape has to do with power, not sex. Again, it's different if it's someone who has a fantasy about being raped, but I think we can agree they don't really pose a threat to anyone, so I'm assuming those are not the people whose arguments you are looking to counter.

The fifth point follows out of the fourth: if it's not part of a healthy sexuality, and if other people might get harmed because of it, the solution should be treatment of some sort, not to feed this fantasy. I don't think anyone has ever been cured of anything by engaging in the same harmful behaviour over and over again, even if it is in a different form.

While not completely the same, I think what is talked about in this article is similar enough, so I'm including it as a source that might interest you: https://filia.org.uk/news/2020/9/10/not-a-victimless-crime-how-child-sex-abuse-dolls-facilitate-crimes-against-children

This is all I could come up with right now, but I'm really tired so I'm sure there are things I missed that I hope someone else might be able to help you out with.

[–]EverydayIsSad[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

If someone fantasizes about being raped, or if a survivor of rape watches or reads rape porn in animation, drawings, and literature, is it good for this someone to do that? Or should this someone stop because that doesn't help at all and is not really an outlet?

[–]firebird 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I've seen lots of people claim that it is helpful, but I've been thinking about it a lot myself and I don't see how. For me there's similarities with self-harm, and in that case I understand that in the moment it might feel like a strange sort of distraction, relief or even comfort, but overall it's obvious that no healing is going to come through that path. Basically, I can understand why they might be doing this, but I don't think it's good for anyone, no.

My main reason for not bringing up arguments for this aspect of the rape porn debate is like I said, they're not a threat to anyone else. And I highly doubt that the support for the continued existence of rape porn in some form is for the benefit of this group. It seems more likely that people benefit from these people being around, because that gives them an excuse to keep rape porn around as well, with the added bonus of less scrutiny because now they can label it as a form of self-therapy or something.

[–]zephyranthes 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is exemplified in a case involving a man, from Virginia who, while arrested after viewing lolicon at a public library computer, asserted that he had quit collecting real child pornography and switched to lolicon

Lol, taking a chomo at his word. Also, this is extortion. In a democratic society, you don't extort people by threatening to commit crimes against children. Chomos get the bullet needle.

A growing conclusion from the research evidence is that pornography does not lead to violence against women.

We already know this is garbage. Look up "we can't consent to this", look up all the idiotic initiatives to teach children "enjoyable" sex and counteract the influence of violent porn.

What are some good counter-arguments to the "if rape porn in animation, drawings and literature gets banned, the rate of rape might increase" argument?

The trans cult online both the male and female sides, is largely anime-driven. They do take their fetish outside and force it on people.

People who can not separate fiction from reality have some issues. Rape porn in animations, drawings and literature should not be taken away from the people that can separate fiction from reality

No, we limit people's access to potentially dangerous things all the time on the basis that a tiny minority can't handle them and would cause great social harm. Wannabe rapists don't get special pleading.

You can not ban rape porn in animation, drawings, and literature on the basis that

I literally don't care. We live in a culture where everyone who watches rape porn is a wannabe rapist. I'm not interested in catering to wannabe rapists.

It's not real people. It's just pixels. Real people are not harmed in making this

Yes they are, unless we're talking machine-generated youtube spam of yesteryear. Real people are making it, and real people are watching it, and from social media moderator lawsuits we know it fucks people up. We ban drugs, we can ban rape porn.

The drawn/animated rape porn is just a fantasy, what's wrong with having a fantasy?

Fuck off, rapist. (The person making the argument, not the OP.) Imagine you're dating someone and he (or she, let's not be sexist) tells you s/he fantasizes about brutally raping and murdering you, let's say the way Gertrude Baniszewski tortured and murdered Sylvia Likens. Still "what's wrong with it", eh?

Rape porn is just a fantasy. Jail is just a room.

In addition to this consideration, laws against pornography raise questions of freedom of speech. violates the freedom of speech and freedom of expression of the people that want to create

Oooooooh fuck off forever, rapist-Alcibiades. You know what violates the freedom of speech and creative expression? The COPYRIGHT LAW. You know how many small commercial projects would flourish if only they could get the (non-exclusive) rights to a major property? Creative expression is already regulated up the wazoo to shape the media landscape as we allegedly want it. Rapists don't get special pleading.

rape porn in animations, drawings and literature have an impact on the real world.

Everything "has an impact". Me walking into a cafeteria with industrial-strength perfume and ruining everyone's appetite because I had a cold "has an impact". A terrorist flooding the aircon with sarin and killing everyone in the building "has an impact".

There's also people who create this type of work to begin with (myself included) as a form of self therapy or an outlet for expression and exploration.

Can real-life rape have an exemption for "self therapy"? Obviously not. Does any real therapeutic technique include "imagine yourself raping someone"? None that I know of. And cut the fancy speak. Put it in plain English, rapist: "I want to express the joy of raping a person", "I want to explore raping a person". This calls for a neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedle.

[–]Nemesis 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Porn isn't a substitute for therapy or psychological intervention. If someone fantasizes about rape or pedophilia, the answer isn't to give them the means to live out their fantasy in private. Eventually the fantasy loses novelty and can no longer substitute for the real thing. The answer is to intervene, help them understand why they experience this compulsion, and give them strategies to control and avoid impulses. Science has yet to identify a pedo or rapist gene, it's clearly nurture/psychological in origin, therefore treatment should be a priority, not just having society throwing up their collective hands and saying "haha they're just born this way, we just need to give them enough porn to satisfy their immutable sexual identity".