all 31 comments

[–]NeoRail 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

I really dislike this "neo-feudalist" terminology. The current system has absolutely nothing to do with feudalism. If we want to make comparisons, then we can say that the current system resembles pre-war liberalism far more than anything else.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

You should make a full response expanding on this, I don't really know much about feudalism so I'd be interested in seeing something like this.

[–]NeoRail 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

Well, that is a very expansive topic. I think one thing worth mentioning at the start is that many scholars today no longer even believe in the value of the term "feudalism", because it is used to refer to a great variety of systems and arrangements all over Europe and over a centuries long period of time, to boot. If we include other societies like premodern China, Japan, India etc. the use of the term becomes even more problematic.

When I use the word "feudalism", I use it in the same sense Evola does, in order to refer to an ideal type of government where the organic principle prevails. Feudal societies were based on the concept of mutual obligations and mutual interest, on self-sufficiency, differentiation (farmers, artisan guilds, warriors etc), as well as local and familial ties. Incidentally, all of these things curtail the exercise of money power, and were consequently opposed and destroyed by liberals to clear the way for a bourgeois regime.

The problem I have with the "neo-feudalism" frame is that it links modern neoliberalism with feudalism, consequently making liberalism proper appear as some sort of high point sandwiched between those two eras, even though the two systems are absolutely nothing alike.

I think a much more accurate comparison could be made with early liberalism, since it eliminated the strong social links and institutions that helped sustain communities in order to atomise and standardise various groups of people into "workers", who would work any job they could get, no matter how dangerous, poorly paid and unfulfilling, with no obligations on behalf of the employer whatsoever other than providing these workers with "the priviledge of work". Additionally, by eliminating the political priviledges of the aristocracy, not only was control of the state opened up to just anyone with money, but the aristocrats themselves, left with nothing to do and no option other than to compete with merchants, would go into moneymaking themselves, which transformed them from a caste with a function into a mere class of rich people, de facto merchants. Land monopolies (held to a large extent by the remnants of the aristocracy) and capital monopolies (held by bankers, merchants and to a lesser extent industrialists) formed the basis of this early form of liberalism and are the chief reason why the ideology of "free trade" and "free markets" was as powerful as it was. Despite many ethical and political challenges, it took the massive stress of the world wars to force an end to this system and usher in a more social consensus and the era of the welfare state. Even that, of course, was done at the cost of the poorer sections of the upper classes, not at the cost of big capital. That is a bit of a digression, though. The point is that this pre-war liberalism, with its monopolies, brutal exploitation, completely anti-social character, plutocracy, and moneymaking rationale, is a much clearer match for the neoliberalism of today. This same issue of massive wealth and even more massive wealth inequality coinciding has already been seen at various times during the past two hundred years. Rather than a hypothetical regression to feudalism, it is a true regression to monopolistic liberalism, only woke and paired with a Netflix subscription this time.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

You rock, NeoRail.

[–]NeoRail 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks, glad you liked the post.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I think you could generate quality discussion concerning feudalism, I don't know where you could post it though. It might be worth your time, and it would be well appreciated by myself and a few others.

[–]NeoRail 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I am open to the idea, but I am not sure there is much to discuss. The history of feudalism is interesting, but it is just that - history. Its political use today boils down to two things: on the one hand, tracing and identifying the problems in the development of European civilisation which led us to the present state of things, and on the other, taking the positive aspects as reference points for reconstructive efforts. I approach history from a Traditionalist perspective, so everything that I could say has already been said by Evola in books such as Metaphysics of Power, Metaphysics of War and others, including various article-format texts. His writings on the Ghibellines, Philip the Fair, Joan of Arc, the Crusades and the crusader orders may be of special interest.

I also found some other posts I wrote that touch on feudalism, in case you want to read them:

None of these posts are specifically dedicated to feudalism, but I thought it might be worth sharing them. Ignore the stuff which isn't directly related to the history of feudalism.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I simply think it would generate discussion! Do as you will, of course. I will read those links with pleasure, thanks for sharing.

[–]NeoRail 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'll share my thoughts if the topic comes up, then.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah I agree, I've read some critiques of liberalism framed as moving away from the principles of Protection and Obedience into a system of pure power IE Obedience demanded with nothing given in return, hence the endless obfuscation of power in liberalism due to the illegitimate and oligarchical nature of the system. The welfare state era seemed to be the return of Protection less so as a military/state principle but now rather as a government/administration principle but in hindsight it looks more like it was just a calculated move where, as you mentioned, the High simply weakened the Middle to protect their own power, at the same time as releasing pressure from the lower elements. It would be like a king protecting his power from peasants by utilising land reform of the nobility, whereby both his threats have been quashed and his own power as a result is increased with little to no cost to himself or something along these lines.

I think Keith is just using Neo-Feudalism in the colloquial understanding of Feudalism as being a like authoritarian system with all the power whereas the masses have nothing. But I agree it's a mistake because they certainly aren't bringing their own obligations back they're just continuing to weaken all the other classes in society and pitting them against each other with extremely effective propaganda techniques.

[–]NeoRail 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think there is also another, more practical reason why it is a mistake. If neo-feudalism is bad and it is a modern reflection of feudalism, meaning that feudalism is also bad, then what are we left with in terms of a good social model to work off of? The middle period, "classical liberalism" or whatever you want to call it. This is one possible, intuitive way to interpret this framing.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, it's obvious that the term comes from a liberal critique of what's happening now and they're associating it with the Bad Thing that existed before liberalism according to liberal theology.

It also reminds me of how people 'define' fascism, the basis of calling this system Neo-Feudalism is a set of characteristics that are claimed to be part of Feudalism being in common to the current system or the current system trending towards these characteristics. But these characteristics can be seen in literally every system, it's the exact same thing as that 14 aspects of fascism bullshit.

I agree with you that this terminology isn't sufficient at all at best and is misleading at worse.

[–]JuliusCaesar225Nationalist + Socialist[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If neo-feudalism is bad and it is a modern reflection of feudalism, meaning that feudalism is also bad

This is your misunderstanding. Liberals who love liberalism use the term neo liberalism as a negative term because they hate neo liberalism. You can support liberalism and be against neo liberalism, same can be said for feudalism and neo feudalism.

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Liberals who love liberalism use the term neo liberalism as a negative term because they hate neo liberalism. You can support liberalism and be against neo liberalism

This is not really true, because liberals who hate neoliberalism are just middle class literati LARPers who pretend to be radical.

You can support liberalism and be against neo liberalism, same can be said for feudalism and neo feudalism.

I can't believe that you are not seeing the issue here. The very terms "liberal" and "neoliberal" refer to identical positions in regards to socio-economic organisation, yet this is obviously not the case for "feudalism" and "neo-feudalism". How can there be any comparison?

[–]JuliusCaesar225Nationalist + Socialist[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Neo Feudalism is the perfect term for it. You seem like feudalism and are bothered by the term but it doesn't matter if feudalism was the greatest social organization because neo feudalism would still be the correct term for what modern society is currently developing into. Liberals will use the term neo liberal in a negative way, they like liberalism but they hate neo liberalism. Neo feudalism is not feudalism so it doesn't matter if the original feudalism was good or not.

[–]NeoRail 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You are free to call things any way you wish, but I disagree that "neo-feudalism" is the "perfect term". It is a misleading term. If you are willing to use misleading terminology, then go ahead. I have already outlined my reasons on why I dislike the term right here:

The problem I have with the "neo-feudalism" frame is that it links modern neoliberalism with feudalism, consequently making liberalism proper appear as some sort of high point sandwiched between those two eras, even though the two systems are absolutely nothing alike.

[–]JuliusCaesar225Nationalist + Socialist[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

And I already told why you were wrong. Neo Feudalism doesn't not imply anything in which you suggest. Nothing about the term implies liberalism is good or feudalism is bad or vice versa. As I already said feudalism could be the greatest system ever and neo feudalism would still be a good term to describe what modern society is developing into. You like feudalism so you don't like the term because you misunderstand what it implies.

You mistakenly think neo feudalism implies negativity towards feudalism which it does not.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Calling something neo-Whatever implies it's intimately connected. Like a Neo-Nazi is someone who is a Nazi after the NSDAP was destroyed. Neo-Feudalism is just an evolution of liberalism/capitalism which has pretty much nothing to do with Feudalism, it seems like another liberal hot potato strategy of deflecting blame from itself.

[–]NeoRail 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

As I already said feudalism could be the greatest system ever and neo feudalism would still be a good term to describe what modern society is developing into.

No, it would not. "Neo-Feudalism" literally means "new feudalism". It is extremely obvious why referring to the current system as "neo-feudalism" brings to mind the feudal era, and how associations are in this way formed between the feudal and neoliberal eras.

[–]JuliusCaesar225Nationalist + Socialist[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It means new and different and is often used in a derogatory way when it comes to politics, a way to imply that the new version is an inferior bastardized version of the original.

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Can you give an example?

[–]JuliusCaesar225Nationalist + Socialist[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Neo liberal or Neo marxist, very few would ever identify as neo liberal or neo marxist.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What's the rationale for calling it Neo-Feudalism though? What are the similarities? It doesn't (seem to, to me anyway) resemble Feudalism and has no continuity with Feudalism so why would we call it Neo-Feudalism?

[–]JuliusCaesar225Nationalist + Socialist[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because the population will resemble peasants more than the traditional wage slaves of regular capitalism. This is why the global elite are supporting UBI in their 4th Industrial Revolution. The elite are consolidating their power over all areas of life including the State which becomes increasingly irrelevant as the global capitalist elite becomes the true official rulers.

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Late-stage liberalism.

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, something along those lines would be a much better fit.

[–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

pre-war liberalism

I just don't see that. We are more on the tail end of post modernism moving into a techno slave plantation. There was a degree of political and economic freedom under pre-war liberalism.

[–]NeoRail 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I just don't see that. We are more on the tail end of post modernism moving into a techno slave plantation.

If you scratch the "techno" part out, you've got original liberalism, more or less.

As to political and economic freedom, it depends on which strata of society we are talking about and what specific point in time we take as our frame of reference.

[–]Chipit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Why put the link in the body instead of in the URL field? Why can't we just click and go directly there? Sheesh.

[–]Nombre27 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's the submission format so that people don't just dump links without any discussion. Even this post without elaborating on the video, their own thoughts, etc., is low effort.