all 28 comments

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

WTF, I love Israel now.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

Can Israel be considered fascist?

No. You could say it is nationalistic, and socialistic, but not fascist specifically. Fascism has to be against international finance. Israel is the political head directing international finance.

There could theoretically be revolutionary Israeli jews that want to get rid of usury, speculation etc in Israel, cut off contact with their international finance cousins etc but it wouldn't really make sense.

Now the question of what is the definition of fascism in your view?

Populism with varying economic systems, mostly Syndicalist/Corporatist though

Is against Marxism and Capitalism economically

Specifically opposes 'international finance' as a class, along with unproductive economic activity (usury, speculation etc)

Nationalism, this can also be pan-Civilisational/Racial too though. Like in Ba'athism it conceptualises all Arabs as one nation, whereas with nation states today they make up many nations. Similarly, some Latin American fascists are pan-Mestizo, some European fascists are pan-European etc.

Sorelian myth of palingenesis < one of the most important concepts is the New Man which is highly concerned with virtue ethics, particularly the ideal of struggle

Built on social capital and has a mass movement

Organic worldview, as opposed to Mechanistic/Materialist one, is against the perceived spiritual decadence of Marxism and Liberalism

Put into a paragraph

"The Third Position (fascism) is revolutionary nationalism rooted in an organic worldview with the unifying Sorelian myth of the New Man, and national rebirth also known a palingenesis. It is built on social capital and is a grassroots populist struggle of the people against the forces of International Finance (the ruling elite) and the spiritual decadence of Materialism (the ideologies of Liberalism and Marxism)."

Is it corporate (not to b confused with corportocracy) syndicism?

'Corporate syndicism' ???? Corporatism/Syndicalism are the names of fascist economics yes, not 'Corporate syndicism' though, I assume you just made a kind of spelling mistake or something.

[–]douglas_waltersWhite Supremacist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

The Third Position (fascism)

Are they synonyms? Or would you suggest that the "Third Position" encompasses a variety of anti-capitalistic and anti-communist political movements and systems?

Because fascism, in the Italian form, was wholly separate from National Socialism.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I call them fascism as an umbrella term, Fascism or Italian Fascism if I mean Italy specifically. Scholars do this too, it's just a weird symptom of online discourse that people want to distinguish all of the revolutionary nationalisms from each other.

[–]asterias 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Third Position is a road separate from the left-right dipole and encompasses various ideological currents that have some common denominators and usually deviates from the original, mainly Italian, Fascism concept that race is not that important, and certainly rejects Jewish influences.. Here is an article that examines the concept objectively:

https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Third_Position

[–]Jesus[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Would you call National Bolshevism 3rd position?

[–]asterias 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nazbol is 4rth Position, which mainly came into prominence thanks to Dugin. I would say it's a leftist heresy.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really, Dugin is a reactionary mixed with conservative conspiracy stuff. The NazBols were fascists that preferred collective ownership and soviet councils over corporatism.

[–]arainynightinskyrim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

race is not that important

I completely forgot that italian fascist ideology did not think much about race, thanks for reminding me.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

People like to say that but it's not really true.

https://zoltanous.substack.com/p/italian-racism-in-fascism

[–]arainynightinskyrim 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Yeah, right after commenting I've checked "mussolini on race" and even the official wikipedia page says that he understod the importance of preserving the white race.

[–]asterias 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8734458-race-it-is-a-feeling-not-a-reality-ninety-five-per

In any case, Mussolini wasn't exactly a man of culture and intelligence but rather a pompous buffoon, in contrast to José Antonio Primo de Rivera.

[–]arainynightinskyrim 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

From wikipedia

In a 1921 speech in Bologna, Mussolini stated, "Fascism was born... out of a profound, perennial need of this our Aryan race".[17] Mussolini was concerned about the low birth rate of the white race in contrast to the higher birth rates of the African and Asian races. In 1928 he noted the high birth-rate of blacks in the United States, and stated that they had surpassed the population of whites in certain areas, such as Harlem in New York City. He described their greater racial consciousness in contrast to that of American whites as contributing to their growing strength.[25] On the issue of the low birth rate of whites, Mussolini said in 1928:

[When the] city dies, the nation – deprived of the young life-blood of new generations – is now made up of people who are old and degenerate and cannot defend itself against a younger people which launches an attack on the now unguarded frontiers [...] This will happen, and not just to cities and nations, but on an infinitely greater scale: the whole White race, the Western race can be submerged by other coloured races which are multiplying at a rate unknown in our race."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Fascism_and_racism

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

"If Petrograd (St. Petersburg) does not fall, if Denikin marks time, it is because the great Jewish bankers of London and New York so desire, linked up as they are by racial ties with the Jews who, in Moscow as in Budapest are taking revenge on the Aryan race which has condemned them to dispersion for so many centuries. In Russia 80% of the Soviet leaders are Jews. In Budapest 17 out of the 22 people's commissars are Jews. Might it not be that Bolshevism is the vendetta of Jewry against Christianity? It is a subject certainly worth pondering. It is entirely possible that Bolshevism will drown in the blood of a pogrom of catastrophic proportions. World finance is in the hands of the Jews. Whoever possesses the nations banks controls their politics. Behind the puppets of Paris stand the Rothschilds, the Warburgs, the Schiffs, the Guggenheims, who are of the same blood as the masters of St. Petersburg and Budapest. Race does not betray race. Bolshevism is defended by international plutocracy. That is the essential truth. International plutocracy, dominated and controlled by the Jews, has a supreme interest in hastening all of Russian life through its process of molecular disintegration to the point of paroxysm. A paralyzed Russia, disorganized and hungry, will tomorrow be the place where the bourgeoisie yes the bourgeoisie, my dear proletarians will celebrate its spectacular abundance. The kings of gold believe that Bolshevism must live now, to better prepare the ground for the new business of capitalism. American capitalism has already obtained a great "concession" in Russia. But there are still mines, springs, lands, workshops, which are waiting to be exploited by international capitalism."

-The Accomplices, published in Il Popolo d'ltalia, June 4, 1919

Well we, Fascisti, want to bring into every city, into every part of the country, even the most remote, the pride and passion of belonging to the most noble Italian race; the race which has produced Dante, which has given Galileo, the greatest masterpieces of art, Verdi, Mazzini, Garibaldi and dAnnunzio to the world, and which has produced the people who won Vittorio Veneto.

-Speech in Ferrara, April 4, 1920

Italy had twenty-seven million inhabitants in 1870, she has now fifty million; forty million of whom live in the Peninsula, and represent the most homogeneous block in Europe, because, compared with Bohemia, for instance, where five millions of the Czecho race govern seven millions of other races, Italy has only 180,000 German subjects on the Upper Adige and 360,000 Slavs, all the rest forming one compact whole.

-Speech in Trieste, September 20, 1920

In the first place she (the Italian nation) has a sure foundation, and that is the vitality of our race.

-Speech in Trieste, September 20, 1920

I have an unbounded faith in the future greatness of the Italian people. Ours is, among the European peoples, the largest and most homogeneous. Unlike the pessimists who believe that everything is great in other peoples houses, while everything is too small in their own, we have pride in our race and our history.

-Speech in Trieste, February 6, 1921

How then was this Fascismo born it was born of the profound and perennial need of this our Mediterranean and Aryan race

-Speech in Bologna, April 3, 1921

We feel those bonds of race to be alive and vital which bind us, not only to the Italians of Zara, Ragusa and Cattaro, but also to those of the Canton Ticino and Corsica, to those beyond the oceans, to all that great family of fifty million men whom we wish to unite in the same pride of race.

-Speech in Bologna, April 3, 1921

Italy is not a State, she is a nation, because from the Alps to Sicily there is the fundamental unity of our race, our customs, our language and our religion.

-Speech in Milan, October 4, 1922

It must not be forgotten that, besides the minority that represent actual militant politics, there are forty millions of excellent Italians who work, by their splendid birth-rate perpetuate our race

-Speech Delivered in the Chamber, November 16, 1922

We, here and everywhere, are ready for any battle so that we may uphold the foundations of our race and of our history.

-Speech in London, December 12, 1922

Let me first of all say how happy I am that we should have met in these magnificent rooms which furnish evidence of the strength and beauty of our race.

-Speech in Rome, January 2, 1923

It is obvious that the problem of Italian expansion in the world is a problem of life or death for the Italian race.

-Speech in Milan, March 30, 1923

I have looked you well in the face, I have recognized that you are superb shoots of this Italian race which was great when other people were not born, of this Italian race which three times gave our civilization to the barbarian world, of this Italian race which we wish to mold by all the struggles necessary for discipline, for work, for faith.

-Speech in Sassari, June 10, 1923

Fascism, representing an irresistible movement for the regeneration of the race, was bound to carry with it this island where the Italian race is manifested so superbly.

-Speech in Cagliari, June 12, 1923

Rome is always, as it will be tomorrow and in the centuries to come, the living heart of our race!

-Speech in Rome, June 25, 1923

It is therefore necessary to take great care of the future of the race, starting with measures to look after the health of mothers and infants.

-Speech of the Ascension, May 26, 1927

I thought that he (Franz Ferdinand) always underestimated our race. He was not able to sense the heart throbs of the people of Italian blood still under his flag. He could not weigh the power of race consciousness. He was cherishing the dream of a monarchy melting three races together. Races, I know, are difficult to melt.

-Autobiography, 1928

The entire white race, the Western race, can become submerged by other races of colour that multiply with a rhythm unknown to our own. Blacks and yellows are thus at the door? Yes, they are at the door, and not only because of their fecundity but also because of their race consciousness and their future in the world.

-Preface to Decline of Births: Death of Peoples by Richard Korherr, 1928

Peace with honor and justice is a Pax Romanaa peace in conformity with the character and temperament of our Latin and Mediterranean race which I wish to exalt before you because it is the race which has given to the world, among thousands of others, Caesar, Dante, Michelangelo, and Napoleon; a race of creators and constructors, ancient and strong, determined and universal, which has given the keynote to the world three times in the course of the centuries.

-Speech in Florence, October 23, 1933

This is why the racial laws of the empire will be rigorously observed and that all who sin against them will be expelled, punished, imprisoned. Because for the empire to be preserved the natives must be clearly and forcefully aware of our superiority.

-Speech in Rome, October 25, 1938

Our rural policy follows this course to preserve and pass on the intrinsic virtues of the Italian race

-Speech at the Argentina Theatre in Rome, January 22, 1939

Our capacity to recuperate in moral and material fields is really formidable and constitutes one of the peculiar characteristics of our race.

-Speech to the Blackshirts of Rome, February 23, 1941

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The man was a masterclass of his own. You can see why Lenin admired him.

[–]arainynightinskyrim 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Judging by these quotes it is clear that he understood the importance of race and yet some still try to claim the opposite by using one single quote.

Maybe they are trying to delegetimize fascism.

[–]VraiBleuScots Protestant, Ulster Loyalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for this. I see so many people claiming that fascists actually didn’t care at all about race or Jewish finance & Hitler forced him to change or something. I knew it was bullshit but it’s great to have all those quotes in one place. I’ve even screenshot’d them for future use so thanks again 👍🏻

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's utterly false. Mussolini was an intellectual. He translated Nietzsche's work from German to Italian himself for fuck's sake. He was a great writer. The idea that he was a "pompous buffoon" is literally a Western media fabrication.

[–]VraiBleuScots Protestant, Ulster Loyalist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Italian Fascism certainly did not reject Jewish influence or the idea of ‘race’ either, they just had a different conception of it than the purely blood-based policies that were implemented post 1938.

[–]YJaewedwqewqClerical Fascist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are generally regarded as being different, with the former being more broad and all-encompassing. Third Positionism mainly describes syncretic systems that reject the rock-and-hard-place dichotomy of communism and capitalism. This definition, while specific, is still quite loose generally speaking and includes a very wide range of political positions/groups, but is very often associated with Fascism, National Socialism, Falangism, etc. and related systems as they are the most prominent within Third Positionism.

[–]EthnocratArcheofuturist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Excellent comment.

[–]Jesus[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Does fascism fight high finance though? In National Socialist Germany, sure, they fought high finance, which was a specific undertaking by a growing ruralist resentment. But it was Gottfried Feder (Federism) who was the mainspring for this and upon the firing of Schacht who was thrown in Dachu for being objectionist, Hitler would appoint one of Feder's pupils.

[–]Jesus[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And some claim Eva and Juan Peron were fascists. They did allow many Nazis to take up residence in Argentina—Juan claiming the Nuremberg Trials were a sham—but they also were quite fond of Israel and were the forst to recognize Israel as its own nationstate. Eva was buried in the same ritual and ordination as Lenin.

[–]asterias 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fidel Castro was said to have been influenced by Primo de Rivera and even have connections with Banderists which he had to severe when Moscow heard the rumours. That's a fascinating chapter of hidden history.

Many fascist doctrines claimed indifference to the Jewish Question (and race).

[–]asterias 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Fascism basically forms around the state where varying degrees of unions have a say and governance forms around the well being of the corporations (always in relation to the will of the unions). It pays little attention to race and asks for obedience to the decisions of the fascio, which is a central concept in fascism, in contrast to the organic concept of the volk. The fascio means that there is no concept of an hierarchy based on IQ or ability.

There are differences though between Italian Fascism and Spanish Fascism or Peronism, and even Spanish Fascism started from the Falange, which was virtually dissolved after the death of Primo de Rivera, and ended up in the Franco concept which was less idealistic.

In any case, Israel is not a fascist state but different parts of the society have different approaches, ranging from bolshevikism to corporatism to globohomo to technocracy to militarism to whatever serves the interests of Israel.

[–]Jesus[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Peronism is interesting. I've heard the word Ziofascism being thrown around and it seems that the Jabotinsky types certainly admired Mussolini and even Hitler. I'll admit, Israel LLC is a corporate ethnostate, and the info you've posted... that is, the fighting over which ism controls what, can hardly be pinpointed on a specific one.

[–]ifuckredditsnitches_Resident Pajeet 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Before WW2 a ton of Zionists actually sympathized with the Axis, it's more the American and Bolshevik Jews that were strictly anti-fascist. Of course now it's no longer the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)