Who is in your closer to you in-group?

submitted by Parthings from self.debatealtright

A white european muslim or a black/brown religious nationalist (could be Christian,Norse… or any historically white religion)

Ethnic Identities could be along racial and religious lines and often intersect. Ethno nationalists states would ideally have pre conditions for both but if you have to choose an ally…who would you choose to be closer to your ingroup.

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[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

White muslim by far. I like anyone who is anti-semitic though.

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That would depend on the individual. The secularised white Muslims are, to my knowledge, basically the same as your average European. Devout white Muslims and white converts are another matter, since they have a very different vision for Europe. I also think that there is a lot of room for dialogue with non-European traditionalists, although not at a mass level.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Devout white Muslims

Like whom? The only groups I know of are like Caucasus guys who basically just live in their mountain villages minding their business. Are Bosniaks and Albanians particularly troublesome in terms of it being a religious thing?

[–]NeoRail 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Not usually, although there are such people, especially over the last couple of decades. A lot of Saudi Arabian money goes into promoting Wahhabism worldwide, including also in Bosnia. I have also seen a number of Western converts - all of them gingers, actually, which is something you also noted in another thread. The converts are typically very serious about the cause of Islam. Generally when you are dealing with religion in Europe, it's a very minor and almost completely aesthetic thing, but for small, select groups of highly devout people, religion comes in a package with a set of principles and a social and political vision. This is why devout white Muslims are a more challenging topic - even an ethnopluralist policy wouldn't be able to account for them. At the mass level though this is less of a problem, because the only real identity modern secularised people have is their nationality.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

You're right about promotion of wahabbism in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but the rest is not true at all, when you have ethnic tensions, religious tensions are automatically high as well. For example Sarajevo always prides itself as being multicultural city, but that's not the case when you display cross publically, you will have your car wrecked, you will have your doorway wrecked, etc.

It's only a matter of aesthetics among urbanized groups like gamers, punk-rockers, metropolitans, etc.

For example is a Muslim is shittalking Christianity, I would probably get aggressive as well even though I'm not much of a Christian, because it's tightly knitted to ethnicity.

But I also think Bosniaks are shitty because they're Bosniaks, not because they're Muslim though. They are descendants of people who traded their religion for a nice meal during the Ottoman invasion, and they feel bad about the fact that they're rapebabies, so they're overcompensating with extremist religious aesthetics quite a bit while also being two-faced subhumans who lick western boot at every step. Chechens in comparison seem loyal, so again, it's not Islam that is the problem really.

[–]NeoRail 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're right about promotion of wahabbism in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but the rest is not true at all, when you have ethnic tensions, religious tensions are automatically high as well. For example Sarajevo always prides itself as being multicultural city, but that's not the case when you display cross publically, you will have your car wrecked, you will have your doorway wrecked, etc.

It's only a matter of aesthetics among urbanized groups like gamers, punk-rockers, metropolitans, etc.

Right, but in this case religion is simply a clear marker for national difference, isn't it? Especially in a place like Bosnia where the different ethnicities look very similar, religious belonging serves as the demarcation line that lets you know who is Serbian, Croatian, Bosniak etc. I think this is most easily perceivable when you look at Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs - in the West, a marriage between an Orthodox Christian and a Catholic Christian would be completely unremarkable, but in Bosnia such a marriage would mean the loss of a Croat or a Serb to another nationality, hence why there is so much social pressure against such marriages even in the case of people who are basically atheists and never go to church or follow any Christian traditions. I think in modern sectarian conflicts like in Bosnia, Northern Ireland, etc. religion is reduced to a simple proxy for nationality, but if you have a different opinion I would be interested to hear it.

For example is a Muslim is shittalking Christianity, I would probably get aggressive as well even though I'm not much of a Christian, because it's tightly knitted to ethnicity.

It is a complex issue. Depending on what is being said, I would probably respond as well, although to be completely frank with you, I would also do the same if anyone were to criticise ancient European paganism and pagan societies, even if the person doing that is a European Christian.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry for the late reply. Yes, everything you said is right, religion is more of a proxy for nationality, I just thought you were downplaying the role it plays in these places. There is some hyperpolarity at play here where (even without extra-national pressures imo) people are ultrareligious (majority to the point of fanaticism) and also being super hypocritical when you contrast their beliefs and behaviour. So in a sense, Bosniak Muslim "doesn't care that much" about Islam because he drinks alcohol, swears, and whatnot, and at the same time will eagerly defend his religion, even in extremist manners, because it would up his in-group status as well. It similarly goes for Catholics as well, although the polarity isn't as extreme as in Muslim case.

Btw., last paragraph = based.

[–]WhiteZealotWhite Nationalist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The White person, of course. But we don't need to allow either of them to live in our countries.

[–]Parthings[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’ll explain why I ask.

As a Hindu Indian, my culture is tied to the land, history and identity of the Indian subcontinent.

When I think of it, Muslim (and another Abrahamic) presence in India was far worse for this ethno religious identity than any ruler of another race. To maintain the legacy of Hindu history and a distinct cultural identity, a white/black/yellow hindu is a better ally than any Abrahamic faith.

Now with the majority of you, some part of history is already Christian. And possibly that’s why you might not see much spiritual difference to Islam since both are antagonistic to pre Abrahamic culture of the past (though Islam is far worse).

I see someone like Dinesh Dsouza, Jindal, Kamala Harris, who are successful only because of their religious affiliation to Christianity. And it makes me think how do you guys see them.

According to me most of these brown converts are for political convenience. And while you might see them as friends, they will support every immigration policy you oppose for brown/black people.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I see someone like Dinesh Dsouza, Jindal, Kamala Harris, who are successful only because of their religious affiliation to Christianity.

Idk about the other two but everyone knows Kamala sneeded her way to the top.

[–]Parthings[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Well, Reagan platforms a lot of minority population Christians. I don’t think they had any individual political merit apart from being overtly devoted.

I’ll add Nicky Haeley to the list who seems to me ti be the right’s Kamala

[–]Blackbrownfreestuff 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think this depends on whether the white was raised muslim or if he is a convert wannabe-arab type who became muslim as a rebellion against whites or christianity or to be an "other".

I am sympayhetic to Bosnians for example. They were raised mooslim, so they don't know any better. But a white muslim convert is like a wigger to me.

[–]Rakean93Identitarian socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

White European fascist Muslim community is a thing in Milan and in other places across the country, they are mostly related to René Guenon works, so I would choose them. I am strongly against any non-european and non MENA christian, we can't trust those who left their religion and anyway we should keep Christianity for Europeans.

[–]ifuckredditsnitches_Resident Pajeet 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Anyone who falls in too deep into Islam/Christianity inevitably becomes racially egalitarian tbh, it's pretty explicit in the bible that all gentiles are equal to one another.