"Race isn't real"

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[–]DragonerneJesus is white 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

I read some of your comments. He is making the "no discrete groups" and no one ever said race is a discrete group. So /u/Hematomato argues from a strawman position that no one holds.

If races were discrete, there would be no such thing as a mixed race person. But clearly NO ONE has ever argued that mixed race people don't exist. The existence of mixed race people necessarily, mathematically, means that races exists on a spectrum (called clines, in genetics) with individuals having various levels of admixture from different races.

I can recommend thuletides debunking:
https://thuletide.wordpress.com/debunking-race-denialism/

This article is great:
https://thuletide.wordpress.com/2021/08/21/race-science-infographics-archive-biology-genetics-anthropology-etc/

The user you argued against admitted himself that race is like colors, and no one would deny the existence of the color blue. And the important aspect here is that colors are way more arbitrary than race is, considering that colors are a literal evenly spaced spectrum, while races are closely clustered genetic populations.

It is really a pointless discussion. We've had biologists and geneticists arguing against race on this sub many times before, and eventually they always run away, because their position is indefensible.

They'd have to argue that the color blue doesn't exist. And that position would make MORE sense than race not existing.

My typical response to people saying race doesn't exist is to ask them if they believe transwomen are women- because that's the type of absurdities that you will start believing once you're brainwashed enough to reach these types of positions. And frankly, it is pointless to discuss with race denialists. But you should read the links I shared and educate yourself.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Dragonerne: Not a Jew.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I read some of your comments. He is making the "no discrete groups" and no one ever said race is a discrete group. So /u/Hematomato argues from a strawman position that no one holds.

"Straw man" is two words. And I'm arguing from that position because it's the only position that makes races even exist.

If we're all just a big genetic smear where some clusters from around the year 1600 are still visible - well, that simply means we're not a species divided into races.

I think it's oddly fitting that we chose colors to represent races. Because just like there's no specific, objective color that represents the concept of "yellow" or "red," there's no specific, objective genotype that represents the concept of "Asian" or "native American."

But whatever your mental picture of the concept of "yellow" or "red" is, it'd be pretty surprising if it bore any resemblance to human skin.

They'd have to argue that the color blue doesn't exist.

And I'll gladly take up that argument. This is obviously 25 different colors, but we subjectively lump them all under one word. Nothing that exists in nature makes these 25 colors the same color.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Color_icon_blue.png/600px-Color_icon_blue.png

My typical response to people saying race doesn't exist is to ask them if they believe transwomen are women

Meh. Trans women are trans women. A is A. Aristotle's Law of Identity.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

That you can subdivide a race into smaller races doesn't negate the concept of race. The German race and the Anglo race are part of the bigger Caucasian race.

That you can display different shades of blue doesn't negate the concept of the color blue. They are all part of the bigger overarching color "blue".

Choosing color to represent race is a modern invention and it fits into the social constructionist argument that race is only skin deep. It is in fact misleading, because someone who has black skin from India is not part of the same race as someone who has black skin from Congo, neither does a light skinned Korean come from the same race as a light skinned German.

From around 1600? The first ancient human we have DNA from is genetically European, that's 45000 years ago.

there's no specific, objective genotype that represents the concept of "Asian" or "native American."

Sure there is. It's called genetic clusters. Ask an unsupervised computer algorithm to categorize humans, and it will group Asians/Mongoloids together into one cluster based on their genetics.

Meh. Trans women are trans women. A is A. Aristotle's Law of Identity.

Transwomen are men. Calling a cow a cat doesn't make it a cat.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

That you can subdivide a race into smaller races doesn't negate the concept of race. The German race and the Anglo race are part of the bigger Caucasian race.

According to you. Of course, Hitler disagreed, didn't he? He was quite adamant that the German race and the Slavic race were two different races.

And the thing is, neither of you are right and neither of you are wrong. Because the question is totally subjective. It's astrology. Nature does not give us delineations that say "this group goes in this race and this group goes in that race." You can immediately distinguish an Irish ginger from a dark-skinned Italian. You can do it visually and you can do it genetically. But we put them in the same "race." Why? Subjective biases.

That you can display different shades of blue doesn't negate the concept of the color blue. They are all part of the bigger overarching color "blue".

Not objectively. Whether "cyan" is part of "blue" is not a question with an answer that is found in science, nature, or logic. It is if we say it is; it isn't if we say it isn't. The sky is obviously not the same color as a morpho didius butterfly, but we use the same word "blue" for both, because it suits us. Because we're sloppy. Because categories give us shorthands.

Our ancestors disagreed. In fact, they didn't recognize the existence of blue. There is no word for "blue" in any of the Bronze Age languages.

From around 1600?

Yes, from around 1600. That's when the Age of Sail came into full swing and humans became exceptionally mobile, breaking a 10,000 year streak of mostly staying with their farms. It's also when our "heathen" slaves started converting to Christianity, so we needed a new excuse to enslave them. So, we invented the concept of race. No human before 1600 had any concept of race. It was a brand new invention.

Sure there is. It's called genetic clusters. Ask an unsupervised computer algorithm to categorize humans, and it will group Asians/Mongoloids together into one cluster based on their genetics.

Asking an unsupervised computer algorithm to take on a subjective task? Yeah, that's machine learning/AI. Sometimes it gives results that are very satisfying to humans; sometimes it hallucinates and lies; sometimes it draws a picture of a Lovecraftian nightmare.

Transwomen are men. Calling a cow a cat doesn't make it a cat.

It's really not complicated. Trans women are trans women. They are distinct from cis women; they are distinct from cis men. They are their own thing. There is no need or benefit in trying to shove them into additional categories.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Sometimes it gives results that are very satisfying to humans; sometimes it hallucinates and lies; sometimes it draws a picture of a Lovecraftian nightmare.

Absolutely clueless.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

...have you just never used AI? The other day I asked it to describe my band, and it told me my band contained four guys who I know but who are definitely not in the band.

If you have fantasies that machine learning gives objective, correct answers to any question you ask it... well, I'm sorry to burst your bubble.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I work with AI, I make the models you use. You are clueless but I'm sure you think you sound smart. Utterly clueless about what you're talking about. You learned some buzzwords and think they apply to what we're talking about.

I have nothing more to discuss with you. Start studying, and then come back, and I might privilege you with my insights.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Yeah, we all work with AI now. It's everywhere. And you and I and everyone all know that it's not useful for giving correct or reliable answers.

and I might privilege you with my insights.

Lol. Okay, sure, Lord Elsington Hastingdingdingworth.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You consume AI products that I make.

And you and I and everyone all know that it's not useful for giving correct or reliable answers.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Absolutely, utterly, beyond clueless. Yet arrogant in your ignorance.

See you in 5 years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsupervised_learning

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

lol. Well, if you're not lying to me, the products you make are shitty. They can't even draw two people standing next to each other without turning their limbs into a horrifying tangle of flesh.

But I'm pretty sure you're lying to me, since I'm guessing if you had a real job, you wouldn't be spending all day on some backwater corner of the Internet spewing racist bullshit into the void.

That's really much closer to the kind of behavior shut-ins and alcoholics and the mentally ill partake in.

[–]weary_traveller 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

He’s playing word games. Whether you call it race or something else, and regardless of how strictly defined the borders of these human population groups are, they exist and they are genetically distinct from each other. AI can accurately identify a person’s “race” just by looking at an xray of their skeleton.

He’s not entirely wrong. Race is an imperfect social construct used to describe actual physical/genetic differences between human population groups that evolved separately for tens, and possibly hundreds of thousands of years.

You could also argue the term species is a social construct and point out the borders between them can be fuzzy, and yet most people would agree species exist.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]DragonerneJesus is white 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    AIs aren't above word games and can be manipulated to produce the results you want.

    However when you use as unbiased and neutral algorithms as possible, you get what you'd expect.

    [–]radicalcentristNational Centrism 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    https://saidit.net/s/news/comments/bj4w/2_high_profile_kiiiers_jailed_this_month_one_is/143c8

    No one was conceptualizing humans as groups of discrete races before we needed an excuse for mass slavery.

    Or maybe people saw other groups that where far more primitive/animal-like than they were?

    You even bring up the age of sail, yet why would any European Person who just stepped foot in Africa see themselves as equals to Native Bushmen who never invented the wheel? Or live in mudhuts?

    Consider that racial gaps in civilization still exists to this day.

    There is no majority black country that is considered 1st world. And no amount of socio-economic factors has ever quelled this. Nations like South Africa and Rhodesia where objectively at their best when white ruled governments had been installed.

    Once blacks had replaced their positions they collapsed.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Race is real.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Any time bud.

      If you are ever really confused, look at culture.

      [–]MoeGreene 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Just try to fill out any government form.