DiscussionFormer poster from here rants on AGB about how hateful he thinks LGBDropTheT is.

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[–]hellonumpty 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I've read it and there's lots to address but I'm just about to head to bed so I will only touch upon the whole "echo chamber" thing right now. The echo chamber is not really a choice. They have us banned on every platform for saying biological sex is real and males cant be females and vice versa. I also think plenty of us have engaged with or debated TRAs at some point. Personally, sometimes, I just want a place to bitch about them. 😂

I'm also at a place where I'm done with debating with them and would rather focus energies on practical ways to halt their nonsense and prevent them from doing any more damage. I'm going to be honest, in recent years, I feel like the trans movement has absolutely became further and further detached from reality (thanks to their own echo chamber, no doubt). You can't debate people who are essentially delusional.

So, Drop The T might be an echo chamber but not really one of our own doing. TRAs however, do indeed have an echo chamber of their own doing -- think the silencing, the wee browser plug-ins they use to determine if an online space is "safe" or not, the fact that many have full on (reality) (collapses/meltdowns) when they have to interact with the outside world and it's not consistent with their online echo chamber. Also, the anime. I want to say the anime is part of it.

[–]MoutonelectriqueBland Straight ♀ 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hear hear! I wouldn't be here if I could say in public that I see serious trouble in the current discourse without having to worry about my job, screaching people and other known fun stuff. For a very 'suppressed', 'underdog' group, they have managed to get an amazing amount of power.

[–]reluctant_commenter 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn't be here if I could say in public that I see serious trouble in the current discourse without having to worry about my job, screaching people and other known fun stuff.

Preach. Same here.

I am glad to have gotten the chance to talk to all the lovely people here, though. :)

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's the most mind-bogging thing to me. Trans stuff is also incredibly prevalent on English-sphere. Not to mention how ridiculously easy it is to encounter a "trans" person online and how harshly you will be treated for any little misstep against so called "trans" people. Yet they cry how incredibly opressed and hated they are. Sorry but in the recent years I see people proclaiming to be trans as some protected class who you don't dare touch or criticize for anything. Some kind of higher class beyond anyone but crying victimhood because they have to deal with the same mental health system like literally anyone else. Not to mention so many conflicting wishes TRAs have - aka trans person will kill themselves if they don't become who they are but they don't need dysphoria to be trans but misgendering and dead naming is the worst crime possible. I'm so tired of this.

[–]reluctant_commenter 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So, Drop The T might be an echo chamber but not really one of our own doing. TRAs however, do indeed have an echo chamber of their own doing -- think the silencing, the wee browser plug-ins they use to determine if an online space is "safe" or not, the fact that many have full on reality collapses/meltdowns when they have to interact with the outside world and it's not consistent with their online echo chamber.

This is an important point, I appreciate you observing it. (And I agree with pretty much the rest of what you said as well!)

[–]reluctant_commenter 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That was not so long ago. Three years ago, if I’m not mistaken.

He was here way more recently than that. Like a year ago, or even more recent than that. Why lie?

Possibilities:

  1. Impostor - This Reddit account does not actually belong to the same person as the Saidit user who went by a similar name and used to post here.

  2. troll - The Saidit and the Reddit accounts are the same, and this guy was just trolling all along. (Reasonably likely, given that there have already been several long-term trolls here...)

  3. otherwise misleading - Or he is just lying for some other reason.

I originally thought they shared the same opinion as me, but I didn’t even realize it was just a hateful echo chamber, because its members themselves never claimed to be hateful.

...I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Lots of people who act in hate-filled ways also simultaneously claim that they are not hateful. Use your brain and decide for yourself?? It's the internet; sometimes people misrepresent themselves, be it intentionally or unintentionally. edit: I'm sorry, I'm not trying to sound dismissive... I just don't understand this level of naive optimism, it's too much even for me. In the most neutral way I can observe it: This guy is thinking very simplistically if he is assuming that hateful people just, like, announce to the world that they're hateful, lol.

We often have people who are randomly going to post threads like “would you date a trans man?” or “would you have sex with someone who has a vagina?”, and then if you say “no”, the OP is going to call you a transphobe.

No we don't, we've had like two of those posts max. I've spent an incessant amount of time here for the last 2 years, I've been keeping track, hahahaha.

Not reading the rest of this post, I doubt it's any more honest than its opening.

edit: Skimming the comments... I think this is just astroturfing. I wonder if it's that same troll who's been bothering us and he's upset he can't rig the votes in here right now since we're private...

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

That was not so long ago. Three years ago, if I’m not mistaken.

He was here way more recently than that. Like a year ago, or even more recent than that. Why lie?

I got a post from him dated summer August 2021. Maybe he meant when he started.

This guy is thinking very simplistically if he is assuming that hateful people just, like, announce to the world that they're hateful, lol.

Oh, I'm totally hateful; Hatefilled McHaterton, they call me. Tell your friends!

We often have people who are randomly going to post threads like “would you date a trans man?” or “would you have sex with someone who has a vagina?”, and then if you say “no”, the OP is going to call you a transphobe.

No we don't, we've had like two of those posts max. I've spent an incessant amount of time here for the last 2 years, I've been keeping track, hahahaha.

Yeah. Honestly, that sounds more like a typical day on AGB, though.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There’s actually a lot of different opinions and schools of thought represented on here. There are definitely some contributions and contributors I don’t love and don’t personally find add much value, which I generally ignore because that’s not why I’m here. And I still think they should be allowed to express it because the censorship is so extreme elsewhere that I understand the inclination to not want to be as strict here. I’ve personally mostly moved beyond certain types of posts that I find more petty than anything. I’m more concerned about colonization of LGB spaces and resources than what people who identify as trans talk about in their own spaces.

Some things he mentions I think are out of context. He mentions that here Elliot (formerly Ellen Page) is “she.” He glosses over the extensive discussion here about the homophobia and lesbophobia Page is widely known to have received, and comparisons between Page’s coming out as lesbian vs as trans. How nothing about it looks like healthy self-actualization. These are important discussions to be had that really can’t happen anywhere else on the Internet or in the media. And he is not lesbian and doesn’t have the experience of having so little lesbian representation and having more fake lesbian representation. Likewise, he’s a gay man. He has AGB. He has gay bars IRL. He has places he can congregate with gay men. Yet even in liberal cities in the west, lesbians have NOTHING. Zero. Goose egg. It is damn hard to find other lesbians. And we are hounded constantly by outsiders. Also I know what he’s talking about with the cake case but he’s mischaracterizing both the issue and the perspective he’s trying to criticize.

Anyway, for me what characterizes this place is the abundant thoughtful, fresh, nuanced takes I find from a large group of longtime users who are all across the political spectrum and the globe. That’s why I come here.

If he doesn’t find value in this place, no point in trying to convince him otherwise, but his post and comments reflect he still has a lot of beliefs that would get him banned on the rest of Reddit and cancelled into oblivion. Godspeed, brother.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People who are gullible tend to focus on and remember the negative (and exaggerate it) more often. He sounds like one of those. Also a tourist.

"Misgendering" is not a universal law. I mean sure, come here and watch and then go whine about how we are bad when in fact we're just not playing along.

It's an unsophisticated take from an unsophisticated person who either didn't spend enough time here or just isn't ready to cope with the amount of nuance and gray that is inherent in contemplating this whole mess. It can't be distilled to something black-and-white.

That's the entire problem. The TRA world wants things to be in stark contrast to one another and they'll lie as much as it takes to persuade others of this.

Completely disingenuous, childish, ignorant take. It smells like what an insecure enabler does. Who cares if we are blunt sometimes? This is our space and we're going to be blunt. We need to vent and have comic relief. Go sit at the kids' table if you can't roll with it (or scroll away from it).

It's the same reason that ER doctors and nurses have a particular brand of gallows humor that would inspire onlookers to clutch their pearls if they don't understand what those professionals cope with every day.

It's also the same reason that mental health professionals have private opinions about Cluster B individuals which they generally will not disclose in public. There's a long history in psychiatry of passing such patients around or throwing in the towel because they are frequently so noxious and so impossible to treat.

We are far from alone in having our frustrations and developing our own gallows humor around them. If that person came here and failed to see that we are specifying the disordered TRA folks much of the time, that's on them. That's an important distinction and I couldn't care less that he didn't connect the dots. We know who we're talking about. And I take pains to draw that distinction on a regular basis.

But, and this is a word of caution for us generally IRL: There is always a credibility game with such abusers, and it goes like this: It is in your best interests to sound as kind and reasonable as possible when interacting with or talking with others about such people because those people WILL falsely accuse you of something the minute you have to enforce your boundaries, and you stand a lot better chance of winning in any arena where you could be judged by the ignorant, if you don't display your very justified anger and frustration openly.

Save that for private moments with people who get it. Don't show it to the abuser or any potential supporters or enablers. Not only will they not get it, they will use it against you to claim that you're the bad guy. Which is what the OP on that Reddit post is doing to us, in essence. Coming to a place where we speak a different language, and failing to interpret it properly and with the benefit of the doubt.

Good riddance. The reason I'm so disgusted with this is that it's disingenuous tattling. I am related to a person who does this, constantly feeling no empathy and distorting the truth or outright lying about others, because they're enmeshed with a narcissistic abuser who burned out, hurt, betrayed, and pissed off numerous other people in the family. No patience for it.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You nailed it. Especially the part about the credibility game with abusers, generally themselves Cluster B or having strong Cluster B traits. Not to mention that dramatic, hostile, black-and-white, all-or-nothing swings in perspectives and engaging in triangulation with third parties (here, going specifically to AGB to announce this apparent epiphany) are also Cluster B behaviors that are evident in a lot of the TRAs turned detransitioners back to TRAs and other iterations of that. This community doesn't really cater to black and white perspectives, and people prone to that way of thinking tend to find better platforms to indulge that elsewhere.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. Triangulation. The word I wasn't finding yesterday. We hardly ever use that term here but it goes on all the time with TRAs and their recruitment of enablers (rescuers) and demonizing of dissenters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

Plus enablers have a vested interest in continuously painting us, the targets of the abuse, as the bad guys, because the enablers are also participating in the abuse. Flying monkeys is another term for them. If they start acknowledging the harm they're doing, then they have to feel the corresponding guilt and shame, too.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-autism-spectrum-disorder/202010/are-you-narcissist-s-flying-monkey

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Liar liar pants on fire. We see you.

[–]MoutonelectriqueBland Straight ♀ 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah yes, the 'we don't say that, those are trolls stirring shit' argument.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Maybe there's nothing more to it than that his friend has now announced she's trans. Which automatically makes trans A-OK in Mr. Ice-Kagen's eyes. And, therefore, any criticism of it an attack on her (as well as, by extension, him).

Which is, of course, about the most sorry-ass argument (or should I say "argument") against our sub, and our position on the TQ+, that anyone could come up with. Because while this woman may be a friend of his, she's no friend of ours; we don't know her from a hole in the ground, or need to think well of her. Or her judgement.

Furthermore, I truly don't give a fuck whether any given genderologist is a "nice person". Even if true, that does nothing to redeem the ideology they're espousing. It remains false and poisonous to the core. And, when you get right down to it, that's really the only thing that matters.

[–]JulienMayfair 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

So, who was this person on here?

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Icekagen or icekagan or something like that. I remember them because I always thought of Elena Kagan when I saw their comments. They may have deleted their account.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

https://web.archive.org/web/20200717150155/https://saidit.net/user/Ice-Kagen/

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Why did someone take a screenshot of his account on July 17, 2020?

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

dun dun dun

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think it's weird, just saying. I just checked and I appeared to get archived everytime I argued with a troll. IceKagen never argued with anyone that I saw, though.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do vaguely recall him getting a reddit crosspost removed for rule 2 or something- but other than that, I don't much remember him on here.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He wasn't really ranting, he just seems like he never really questioned gender theory and was upset that other people did. I think reading what gets written here made him uncomfortable and he didn't like the idea of being socially unacceptable.

I remember talking to him, I didn't know he was French. I also thought he was a lesbian.

[–]pacsatonifil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A lot of people posting about this place now. I come by once every other month I feel. Though posts on Reddit say there is a lot of hate here. I noticed the sub is now also locked. I think that’s a good idea. We should try to be more positive. Focus on the LGB and how good it can be to just hand with LGB friends.

[–]automoderatorHuman-Exclusionary Radical Overlord[M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

RIP Snappy, I AM THE NEW GOD!

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