DiscussionWhat would LGB activism look like?

submitted by PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑 from self.LGBDropTheT

Was just thinking about this recent-ish after browsing the "O" website that I occasionally go on...despite not fitting that ideology. Saw a post on the "O" complaining that most people post outrage/reactionary posts about TRAs and suggested to make debate subs to debate steel man(?) arguments from the TQ+.

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I know I ask many questions but here they are:

Questions

1. What are your (general) thoughts on activism?

2. Do you believe boycotting brands that are anti-LGB or even pro-TQ+ would help us/you?

3. Does social media help, hurt, or do nothing for the LGB Rights cause?

4. Do you think the LGB rights is an attainable goal in the near future?

5. Would you consider s/LGBDroptheT an activist group? Why or why not?

::BONUS QUESTION(S)::

  • What type of content would you like to see on this subsaidit?

That bonus question was just out of curiosity... I like to make these kinds of posts and post articles/research occasionally to generate discussion and see different perspectives. I've posted some comedy videos such as "I f*cking HATE gay people" and Lesbian couple meets friend's new "girlfriend" Leslie every once in a blue moon.

Anyways ...twas curious. Sorry if the questions get repetitive, some may be...just based on topic/thread/post or whatever.

Edit: And if you have constructive criticism on my posts, I'm all ears! I want to make better/useful content.

Edit 2: I should have been more specific, I meant LGB rights away from the TQ+ in my questions but feel free to answer however the question was worded. My bad.

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[–][deleted] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

  1. What are your (general) thoughts on activism?

I think it's helpful provided it doesn't get overly preachy or militant. Y'know, like TRAs.

  1. Do you believe boycotting brands that are anti-LGB or even pro-TQ+ would help us/you?

I've started doing this already. I boycotted Always after they caved to TRA bullying and removed the Venus symbol from their menstrual products, because apparently non-females menstruate. I've also unsubbed/unfollowed a lot of content creators for jumping on JKR bashing/TWAW/TMAM bandwagons so they no longer get ad revenue or engagement from me. I think if enough people do that with big corporations they'll see that actual LGBs don't support their cause.

  1. Does social media help, hurt, or do nothing for the LGB Rights cause?

Something that's bothered me for a while is that many LGBs who disagree with trans ideology, and honestly people critical of it in general, seem to be older. When I say 'older' I mean post-college age and up. This is great and all, but if we want to truly derail the TRA train we need more young people to wake up to how ridiculous their demands are. In that regard, social media is important because that's how a lot of young people get their information. It'll be especially helpful if young LGBs see more evidence of how homophobic TRAs are online.

Edited to add: A lot of young people will look at anyone over 30 who opposes gender nonsense and think 'well they're old and their opinions are outdated anyway so I don't have to listen to them.' It would be great to use social media to get more young people on board, so those drinking the kool aid can see that there are people their age who aren't falling for it.

  1. Do you think the LGB rights is an attainable goal in the near future?

Gay marriage was a victory we fought for in the US and won. So it's definitely possible to pry the TRAs off of us.

  1. Would you consider s/LGBDroptheT an activist group? Why or why not?

Not really. We aren't an organization like the various LGB alliances. I consider this space to be a place for discussion, not necessarily an activist group.

What type of content would you like to see on this subsaidit?

More LGB focused things that don't involve TRA madness. I know it's hard because they have their claws in damn near everything nowadays, and I enjoy dragging them just as much as the next person, but I do agree that it would be nice to see other things. It could be kind of like the 'true' subreddits (i.e truelesbians, truebisexuals, truegaymen) that were created after TRAs took over the originals. Those subs were formed to distance themselves from all the transplaining about 'genital preferences' and 'same gender attraction', but most of the content wasn't TRA focused. This sub could be similar to that. Like r/LGBT but without the virtue signaling. Obviously we'd still have to discuss how TRAs are trying to dismantle gay rights and the various ways they're homophobic and biphobic, but more content that isn't centered around that would be nice.

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It would be great to use social media to get more young people on board, so those drinking the kool aid can see that there are people their age who aren't falling for it.

In my early 20s, and I feel compelled to mention-- I think there are actually many more people my age who are opposed to transgender ideology than it might seem from social media. The problem is, we stay isolated from each other because we would be heavily bullied by our peers if we ventured to state our thoughts, or even question transgender ideology in the slightest. I went to a very liberal college and noticed, as I made friends both with people who were adamantly pro-TRA and people who were nonchalant about the whole "LGBTQ+" thing, that many people who portrayed themselves as nonchalant around the activists were, in fact, opposed to transgender ideology and thought the whole "I identify as X!" type of rhetoric was bullshit.

Do you have any suggestions for how we reach out to this demographic? I try and softball comments to friends sometimes to suss them out, but sometimes I just don't have the energy for it... have heard phrases like "disgusting transphobes" from people IRL enough times that I get tired of trying sometimes.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's actually very reassuring to hear! Although it saddens me that people aren't able to speak out against it without being bullied. I'm not really sure how to get through to them as long as cancel culture continues to exist. I can't say I'm much better either. All of my GC social media accounts are anonymous because I really don't wanna lose my job or shoot the business I just started in the foot. I've taken to doing a kind of 'watchful waiting' approach because it does seem like the tide is turning. I just don't know how long it'll take before 'I'm not into trans people' or 'being a masculine girl/feminine guy/androgynous doesn't make you nonbinary or agender' become non-bigoted statements.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I am not sure how to, either, and am also afraid of having my views exposed at work, where many people support transgender ideology.

I just don't know how long it'll take before 'I'm not into trans people' or 'being a masculine girl/feminine guy/androgynous doesn't make you nonbinary or agender' become non-bigoted statements.

I think, at least in the US, we might see some significant change in the next 5 years or so. But however long it is, it'll likely take a backseat to coronavirus. (Which I'm fine with, it's the priority at this moment in time.)

[–]8bitgay 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In that regard, social media is important because that's how a lot of young people get their information. It'll be especially helpful if young LGBs see more evidence of how homophobic TRAs are online.

Exactly. I think it's fine if you wanna stay away from social media. We all know how toxic it can be. But social media is still an important tool for communication. And for those of us that simply enjoy using social media, we shouldn't be pressured out of them either. We shouldn't feel like we have no space in social media.

And I'm not saying in a way like TRAs think that all the content of social media should cater to us. The issue is that social platforms, in theory, tend to be open to LGB people and even to LGB communities. But in practice we all know what happens if you try to create a gay-only or a lesbian-only group in Reddit, for example. There is nothing in their rules that forbids such groups.

Obviously we'd still have to discuss how TRAs are trying to dismantle gay rights and the various ways they're homophobic and biphobic, but more content that isn't centered around that would be nice.

I think the same. I'd love to see other communities that are simply LGB, or L, or G, or B. No need to talk about TRAs, about homophobia, about anti-LGB discourse. We need spaces to talk about mundane stuff, just like everyone else does. Except these spaces would also be spaces where a gay guy can say express his love for the male body without being corrected that he should also like female genitals.

But that's part of the importance of this current space. All these posts in this sub are proof of why we need our own spaces.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's crazy that we're now in 2021 and gay people are still facing the conservative homophobia and now the woke homophobia.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What are your (general) thoughts on activism?

I am in favor of activism as a concept-- it is about acting in accordance to one's beliefs in order to bring about a change one wishes to see in the world. I disagree with the values that some activist groups have, and agree with the values of other activist groups; I am strongly against activist groups that condone or encourage violence as a means to promote their values (and usually the ones that do so have values that I don't agree with). I distinguish "activism" from "performative activism" wherein people posture to an audience in order to pretend that they are doing activist work in a bid to win social approval. That's meaningless, deceitful and ultimately contributes nothing to a society.

Do you believe boycotting brands that are anti-LGB or even pro-TQ+ would help us/you?

On a personal level-- it would help me mentally, yes, because I would feel sick using a product I paid for knowing that my money and buying power supported a brand that promotes a homophobic ideology. I would feel as uncomfortable supporting anti-LGB liberal brands as I would supporting anti-LGB conservative brands (e.g. Chick-fil-A or Salvation Army).

On a wider scale-- yes, I think if we got enough attention to a boycott then it could make a difference. In regards to women's rights there has already been some noise over feminine hygiene product companies that kowtow to transgender movement. In the US at least, I think we need at least a few more years before LGB rights start to enter our mainstream dialogue (shoutout to the UK for leading the way).

Also, "pro-TQ" is, in the vast majority of cases (perhaps all cases?) also anti-LGB-- particularly "pro-queer" brands because Queer Theory is homophobic by nature. (I'm almost ready to say the same about the deeply-homophobic concept of "transitioning", but my views are still evolving.)

Does social media help, hurt, or do nothing for the LGB Rights cause?

Hmm... social media in general or social media as it exists in 2020? Some social media (such as this group!) helps LGB people, because it helps us connect to each other when we are banned from reddit for being same-sex attracted! But I think the fact that social media is widely available to young kids and teens, without any guidance from parents in most cases, is a major driver of the transgender trend, which is harmful to LGB rights (and the rights of children in general, women, people with mental disorders who're being taken advantage of by profiteering drug companies, etc...). So many points you could get into on this topic, but I'll leave it at that.

Do you think the LGB rights is an attainable goal in the near future?

I think it depends on the scope of the rights that we're talking about... Same-sex rights unaccompanied by a deeply homophobic ideology of "gender identity"? I think it's gonna take at least a couple decades to fully clean this mess up. I'm in the U.S., and I think there are still a ton of differences across states regarding not only what rights we have, but whether laws supporting our rights are actually enforced. I wish there were more support in this area. And I wish there were more support for L/G/B people across the globe, particularly those in countries where being same-sex-attracted is illegal.

Would you consider s/LGBDroptheT an activist group? Why or why not?

Hmm, that's an interesting question. (I'd imagine a couple people here who don't like activism in general might get annoyed at this question, haha. But worth asking!)

Practically speaking... no. I don't think we are because our activities are not centered around acting. They are primarily centered around

  • discussion

  • documentation (recording instances of harassment directed towards LGB people)

  • debate/arguing (for those of us who are into that sort of thing, lol)

I think there are a few individuals here who activists, in one form or another, or whose intentional acts to spread awareness about the issues we discuss here might be deemed activism (e.g. putting together a post and then spreading it to Reddit/Twitter/blogs/whatever). But as a group, overall, I don't think we do enough to qualify as activists... we mostly just sit here and talk, lol. Which is kind of all this group wanted in the first place on Reddit, til it kicked us off. (I hadn't joined yet before that happened.)

(Bonus) What type of content would you like to see on this subsaidit?

Okay, I'm really torn on this, to be honest. I'm so glad you asked because I don't think we've hardly talked about it at all, and I tried to make a post about it but it got snapped up by Automod (praise be).

Here's what I know I'd like to see:

  • Discussion posts, like this one! About other LGB people's experiences and opinions.

  • Posts documenting liberal homophobia. Be it on social media (Reddit, Tumblr, Twitter, whatever) or in real life (usually view news articles; or statistics/data). I know some people get tired of seeing posts about Reddit being homophobic, "we get it, we know Reddit is homophobic"... but I appreciate it because a) I like to keep track of the changes as they develop (e.g. users slowly starting to protest the more blatant comments and getting censored for it), b) I'm still amazed at it. I totally get that some people here just don't want to see the negativity, though, and that's fair; maybe we could bring more positive content to the table, as well, to balance it?

  • News articles about court cases, laws, and major public figure announcements that affect LGB rights, so we can track the development of these changes as they happen.

  • People's stories! I wish we had more of these. Maybe I ought to do that... make a "hey, do you have any stories about X topic?" type of posts. I'd love that. It's always interesting to hear people's stories. Potential topics: a) experiences introducing your same-sex significant other to your family, b) any TRAs in your life and what are they like? How do they talk about or describe being lesbian/gay/bisexual? c) when did you first realize you were same-sex-attracted, and how'd you realize it? d) thoughts on having children? I dunno, there are just so many questions I'm curious about. Now I want to make a post, lol.

  • Awesome essays about the transgender rights movement, same-sex attraction, homophobic queer theory, how these movements are playing out in particular subcultures/groups, etc. I have found so much good reading material because of this group! I'm very glad of it.

Less sure of:

  • Memes? - I know this group skews older, but it'd be cool if we had a meme subsaidit like "LGBmemes" or something. But I feel a little weird posting that stuff here because I know there's such a wide age range and some people don't like that stuff, lol.

  • Posts about conservative homophobia? - I know that this sub is about dropping the T but, like, this is also an LGB community and I kind of wish there were a dedicated place for talking about that as well. I dunno about anyone else but I could definitely benefit from some discussion and support on that front. And who the fuck else am I gonna ask-- the "LGBTQWTF++ community" on Tumblr? This is one of the only majority-LGB communities I even know of (and by far the most chill).

  • Posts bashing weird pronouns without any thoughtful discussion - I am 100% down for a discussion about "neopronouns"/MOGAI, whether they are homophobic, etc. but seeing posts that are like "look, it's carrotcakegender!" don't really add much... I mean, yes the whole thing's crazy and we ought to talk about it, but I kinda wish people would bring the discussion on those posts back around to "hey this is harmful and here's why".

Anyway. Now that I've written a fucking essay, I'll try to add anything else that I think of later. THANK YOU for another great discussion post! Keep em comin' :)

edit: typos, ugh

[–]mvmlego 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with a lot of your points, and I like your ideas for what this sub should be. There's one significant point of disagreement that I have with your post, though, which is regarding boycotts. I'm not so keen on boycotting Chick-Fil-A or other companies that don't incorporate their objectionable political or social views into their products or services.

I think there's an important distinction between "paying people who hate me" and "paying people to hate me". I don't mind seeing a movie which stars an actor who has abhorrent political views, as long as those views don't work their way into the movie. I don't think that buying a product from a person indicates, or should be commonly understood as indicating, that the buyer likes the seller or the seller's political views. I think that being willing to interact with people who we despise (and people who despise us) is important for living in a pluralistic society. I don't want cancel culture turned in my favor; I want it dismantled completely.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for reading! And for the feedback about the sub.

I think we may have to agree to disagree about boycotting, although I definitely get where you're coming from. To be honest, I do not really support boycotting out of some ideological reason or some strategic plan for taking out gender identity ideology-- for me, it's as simple as, Giving my money to a company that vocally supports bigoted ideologies makes me feel physically and emotionally uncomfortable. That's it. So I avoid doing it sometimes. I want to live in a way that's consistent with my values, and if there is an alternative to that product that I could buy from another company that doesn't vocalize views counter to my values, then I see no reason not to.

I think that being willing to interact with people who we despise (and people who despise us) is important for living in a pluralistic society.

I agree and I think trans rights activists miss this point. However, I draw a distinction between treating companies this way (even though by law, they are treated as individuals) and treating people I interact with this way. I would be willing to have a chat with anyone from Chick-fil-A, all else held equal, but I don't want to give my money to an organization knowing that in a small way I am supporting them spread their ideals.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Do you believe boycotting brands that are anti-LGB or even pro-TQ+ would help us/you?

We're a miniority inside of miniority. Boycotting is not exactly the type of strategy for us.

Does social media help, hurt, or do nothing for the LGB Rights cause?

It's a tool, so it has the potential to fit into any of these cathegories. It's important to note that we're up against radical left now, which owns most social medias and just showed the world that they stopped caring about appearances and are not afraid to silence anyone who disagrees.

So the normie, propaganda medias are against us. But then we can see LGB resistance on wilder communities, much bigger than saidit, that don't silence people. I've seen LGBdropTheT being spread on 4chan and 9gag, with acceptance of majority of users. So that definitely helps.

Do you think the LGB rights is an attainable goal in the near future?

Certainly. It's kinda the natural thing that will happen. But TQ+ will NEVER forgive us this, they'll make sure to make us look irrelevant and strip us off rights, probably by reducing our defining terms to "gender" from "sex", which will make us all about having a choice and preferences and of course – picking the wrong ones.

Would you consider s/LGBDroptheT an activist group? Why or why not?

No. Activism is defined by very specific agenda and strategy of action. We don't have any of these. The sole idea of LGBdroptheT is the same for all of us here, but we often have some differences when it comes to details. I would call LGBdroptheT a movement.

[–]mvmlego 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I like your points, but I think one warrants a note of caution:

So the normie, propaganda medias are against us. But... I've seen LGBdropTheT being spread on 4chan and 9gag, with acceptance of majority of users.

I'm reluctant to interpret opposition to TQ+ ideology as support for LGB people or ideas. I not trying to assume the worst, but I'm not going to assume that 4chan's support is anything more noble than an opportunistic political alliance, either. If this sub was a little more directly focused on LGB stuff instead of TQ+ stuff, it might be able to separate the grifters from the genuine supporters.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm reluctant to interpret opposition to TQ+ ideology as support for LGB people or ideas.

Agreed. I made an offhand comment to a conservative acquaintance about trans rights activists and he immediately condemned the "transgender and homosexual lifestyles". Lol.

If this sub was a little more directly focused on LGB stuff instead of TQ+ stuff

Hey, so-- idk how long you've been on this sub, but 2-3 months ago it actually was a lot more LGB-centered... some of the mods become more inactive though, and since then there have been more posts that are just about TQ and not LGB. I tried to make a post about it but it got caught by automod... might try again. You raise a good point. It is important to emphasize the pro-LGB aspect because we can't really assume that someone against the TQ+ is actually supportive of L/G/B people they might just as soon condemn us.

[–]PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah...I feel you on the conservatives part, my family is against trans and "homosexual lifestyle".

I wish it were more LGB centered again. I went off to the s/bisexuals sub for a while before, whenever I get tired of hearing around the TQ+ politics constantly and lots of "look trans say stupid thing in social media, trans bad. >:-0" posts.

But ...The bisexuals subsaidit is still a bit small and I do like to interact with the L & G as well. We're starting to get a bit more active though which is nice!

Hopefully they open the s/LGB sub soon...I came here due to dealing with the TQ+ on the daily at my old job, now I do not have to worry about that anymore (new job) and want to merely talk to other LGB peeps about other many other things apart from the T.

[–]HelloMomo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, please, what needs to be done to get s/LGB up and running?

[–]mvmlego 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was on r/LGBDropTheT for roughly the two weeks preceding its ban. A few weeks ago, I decided to check out the Saidit sub.

Thank you for the history. That's good to know.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No problem! And glad to have you here :)

[–]mvmlego 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that boycotts are warranted if the company has anti-LGB (or otherwise objectionable) content in its advertising or somehow embeds those messages into the products themselves.

As a hypothetical example of the latter kind of phenomenon, imagine that YouTube was outright promoting a row of videos (similarly to what they've done with COVID and racial stuff in 2020) specifically of TRAs, and that those videos provided misinformation that undermined the concept of sexual orientation or attempted to shame LGBs into having sex with trans people. Depending on how perniciously YouTube was promoting them, and how difficult they made it to find alternative views, I might support a boycott on those grounds.

On the other hand, I don't think that boycotts are warranted for anti-LGB views expressed by executives or employees, if those views don't work their way into the company's marketing or products. For example, I wouldn't have qualms about seeing a movie with an actor who spouted TRA talking points off-screen, as long as those views weren't being promoted in the movie itself. Similarly, I don't support attempts to boycott Chik-Fil-A, since the company itself has never attempted to promote anti-LGB messages.