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Just a thought of mine about "affirmative" treatment.

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[–]Butterlogs✨Superlesbian ✨ 24 insightful - 4 fun24 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 4 fun -  (13 children)

If a suicidal person says that they want to off themself so they can stop feeling depressed, the first thing you do is to make sure they can’t do it. If someone has a mental illness, the last thing they should do is listen to and act on what their brain wants, because it is incapable of functioning properly. I genuinely can’t understand why the rules change for gender dysphoria.

[–]censorshipment 7 insightful - 10 fun7 insightful - 9 fun8 insightful - 10 fun -  (8 children)

I strongly disagree that you should try to stop suicidal people. No one who wants to die should be forced to live.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 21 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

But it's important to make sure that they actually have no legitimate purpose or ability to find happiness ever again. If someone drops their pasta and, while in a temporary irrational emotional state declares that they want to kill themselves, that is very different from someone who has been so mentally damaged and traumatized that they are 100% incapable of ever finding happiness without being haunted by their past. Should we really treat both of those people the same way?

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 9 fun4 insightful - 8 fun5 insightful - 9 fun -  (4 children)

Yes.

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Should we really treat both of those people the same way?

Yes.

That's just messed up. I think in many cases, in fact even in either of the two outlined by the commenter above you, such people might find the ability to rejoin life if they had access to help.

[–]censorshipment 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

See, you're assuming people are lacking whereas I am not. I was thinking in terms of "crime of passion" for the first example. Manslaughter via suicide.

I'm sure Robin Williams had access to the best help yet he still took his life. And hopefully, no one tried to stop him... hope his wife wasn't banging on the bathroom door disturbing his final moments. :(

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

See, you're assuming people are lacking whereas I am not.

Correct, you are indeed making that assumption. I think it's misleading to suggest that all people who attempt suicide, or even the majority who attempt suicide, attempt suicide because they truly have no way of enjoying their lives or ever having a reason to live-- many attempt suicide because they think there is no way out of a predicament they are in. E.g. breadwinners who committed suicide in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis because they felt ashamed that they couldn't provide for their families. Would you encourage them to commit suicide? I don't think anyone should be shamed for wanting to but nor would I encourage anyone to!

I know how much you enjoy arguing with the people in the comments though, so I'll leave it at that.

[–]censorshipment 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

I'm saying no one should intervene... I'm not saying they should be encouraged to commit suicide. Smh and you replied to my simple comment of "yes". Maybe you should block me. I'm so sick of people replying to me and then acting like I'm the one provoking them.

[–]ukrdude10 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You have no idea what leads a person to suicide in every single case, so it's judgmental to call them "irrational". Every suicide case can somehow be rationalized, because let's face it, life sucks for most of us, especially in this pandemic and economic situation, we're still gonna die, most likely having no enjoyable leisure time or retirement, so what's the fucking point? The future is never pleasant, it's wrinkles, disease, pain, and loneliness, no matter who you are. You have no right to tell someone who wants to end their horrific pain forever not to do it, stopping them becomes a form of torture.

[–]panderichthys 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Well said!

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

because threatening suicide is a legitimate move I guess. Have no clue.

[–]mvmlego 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

It's not that the rules have changed; it's that the proponents of transgender surgeries/hormones disagree that these procedures constitute self-harm.

[–]ukrdude10 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Actually no, every person has the right to decide when they will die. We were born without our consent, and we have the right to exit this existence whenever we want. For some people life is constant torture and it's not worth it, we're going to die anyway from some disease in old age. Stopping people from suicide is a form of assault on bodily autonomy.

[–]censorshipment 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Agree. I didn't feel this way about suicidal people until I saw what my mom's youngest brother went through. He died at 39 after attempting suicide several times. He was forced on a feeding tube a few months before his death, and he was begging them to let him die. He drank bleach and begged for his stomach not to be pumped. He lived with my grandmother for his whole life (except when he was in the US army)... and then he moved out and finally died 2 weeks later because no one was there to call the police. He was found dead in an apartment he'd just rented. His agony was over.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

The purpose of this whole mess we're currently stuck in is to confuse the hell out of people and undermine our collective sense of reality. Sex is something that is basic and obvious, and if you confuse people on that subject, you can confuse them on a lot of things. It’s also about bullying people into submission.

[–]censorshipment 12 insightful - 9 fun12 insightful - 8 fun13 insightful - 9 fun -  (1 child)

Money money money.

https://ht-ca.com/blog/how-much-does-hormone-replacement-therapy-cost/

https://thervo.com/costs/how-much-does-therapy-cost

[–]purrvana 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

More reading: https://www.the11thhourblog.com/

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Because GD "isn't a disorder" even though it is directly linked to traumatic experiences or other mental health issues, requires surgeries and hormone treatments to, you know, TREAT, and makes the sufferer have delusions about reality

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

To be fair I wonder what were the studies on therapy of dysphoric people and that made all mental health workers conclude that it makes no sense to work with the issue but instead affirm it? It's the only mental issue, in which people are sent to surgeries and hormonal therapy. This is very invasive and risky in case the diagnosis is wrong (what happens even in case of different mental issues), wouldn't someone think of something similarly effective but not so invasive?

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think there are many factors to it, one of which is that trans patients don't even go to psychiatrists with the purpose of beating the dysphoria and living a healthy happy life in the body they were born. They go to the psychiatrist so that they can get a piece of paper that says that they have been greenlit to transition. They do not want psychiatric help, they just want the piece of paper. This causes patients to doctor-shop until they find a psychiatrist who is willing to just take the money, shut the fuck up, and give them what they want.

Any psychiatrist that says "Wait a minute, let's have a few sessions and try to figure this out" will at best just never see that patient again, and at worst will be reported for transphobia and may lose their jobs. I've read horror stories online about how some psychiatrists aren't allowed to give alternative options anymore. They must immediately affirm the imaginary gender or they risk losing their jobs.

Trans diagnosis has turned into a conveyor belt operation. If they come into your office, it's in your best interest to just give them the piece of paper and get them out of your face as quickly as possible, especially if you're dealing with the angry, violent, belligerent ones who are looking for a fight.

The ethical psychiatrists might say something like "I'm not qualified to give such a diagnosis" and try to just send these people elsewhere, or else refuse to give a diagnosis without several sessions, but even that can turn into a dangerous situation.

In Iran, it's totally different. You have to go to so many appointments and jump through so many hoops before a psychiatrist finally decides that you are in fact "trapped in the wrong body" and must have the sex change. It can take months or even years.

[–]mvmlego 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

It's the only mental issue, in which people are sent to surgeries and hormonal therapy.

The typical TRA response to that is that gender dysphoria isn't a problem with one's mind; it's a problem with one's body. Their explanations for that assertion vary pretty wildly and tend to be somewhat ad hoc, but I figure it's good to know what to expect in case you get into a conversation with them.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think affirmative therapy is being pushed right now is because gender clinics are absolutely flooded and nobody wants to spend the money or resources dealing with it. I can just imagine it "well if they go on to transition anyway just give them the pills, why the fuck are we paying for all this counselling".

[–]ColoredTwice 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As someone noticed in GC forum - such patients are goldmines for clinics. After affirmitive treatment they will become their patients until they die, every month and every year bringing them decent chunk of money, and there no way for them to stop doing it after they started, so they are "subscribers for healthcare" - like there are subscribers for Telegraph or Netflix.

[–]mvmlego 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

EDIT: I opened the tab for two different posts at once and basically posted my comment under the wrong one. Ignore this.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

comment 2: I really hate how people push affirmative therapy. Disclaimer: I think transgender is a real thing and that people should be able to transition, HOWEVER I think people should be given the opportunity to be able to visit counsellors etc who can talk to them about what's going on without leading them in a particular directions; I think they deserve the opportunity to reconcile two competing parts of themselves. I detest the simplistic narrative that the media is pushing at the moment— that being transgender is an innate identity, that making the decision to transition is easy, and that transition is an easy process. From what I can see a lot of teens / adults who go through this (even when transitioning is the right decision) often struggle with what is going on and the enormity of their decision.