LGB History"One reason why homosexuals are so rarely cured is that they rarely try treatment. Too many of them actually believe that they are happy and satisfied the way they are."

submitted by Happy_Blueberry3910 from time.com

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[–]Happy_Blueberry3910[S] 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This quote from 1965 reminds me Gender activists pressuring lesbians into "cock time".

[–][deleted] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I genuinely believed that it was a quote from a TRA until I clicked the link. Speaks volumes as to how ridiculous they can be when conversion therapy rhetoric can easily be passed off as their own.

[–]julesburm1891 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same. Before reading the piece, I thought, “oh Christ, now Time supports the cotton ceiling?” Goes to show what TRAs really stand for.

[–]Happy_Blueberry3910[S] 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Karl Marx was right:

Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

If they are happy and satisfied it doesn't sound like there's something that needs to be cured.

And amazing how the bullshit from the past is still around to day thanks to the TQ asshats.

[–]ukrdude10 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (9 children)

From my anecdotal observations, I'm not exactly convinced that sexual orientation is unchangeable, because many people experiment with the same or opposite sex in younger years, and then choose one gender.

However, sexuality must NEVER be forced or manipulated, it must develop naturally. That's why both conversion therapy and pedophilia have horrible consequences on the mind, and must be eliminated.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think there has been some research on sexual orientation "identity" changing for some people before age 20 or something, but remaining stable after, due to experimentation. u/GatitoMalo do you know of any papers off the top of your head? No pressure :)

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Not off the top of my head, no, I'm not aware if there is much research on longitudinal tracking of orientation or identity beyond Lisa Diamond's work. (I'd like to see replication and definitely scrutinize the operationalization.)

But let me share the framework: Orientation, identity, and behavior are all three different things and there's no guarantee that they'll all line up perfectly. Take a gay man in the 1930's. Probably married a woman, has a bunch of kids with her (behavior,) is understood to be a heterosexual by his wife and community (public identity) but is homosexual (orientation,) and knows it (private identity.)

Obviously identity is quite mutable. It is merely how we conceive of ourselves in a social context. A change in identity does not necessarily reflect a change in orientation, and we all can (hopefully) chose our own behavior, experimentation included.

There may be some evidence that orientation in some individuals can be "latent," and this does seem to be the case for several lesbian anecdotes I have collected, but understand, they never did get on well with men sexually to begin with. They didn't switch from heterosexual, they never were; just trying to play that social role.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

There may be some evidence that orientation in some individuals can be "latent," and this does seem to be the case for several lesbian anecdotes I have collected, but understand, they never did get on well with men sexually to begin with. They didn't switch from heterosexual, they never were; just trying to play that social role.

Could you elaborate? There are a lot of anecdotes I've seen of lesbians discovering themselves later in life, however while some seem legitimate others are pretty eye-roll worthy.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's all anecdotal at this point with regards to "latency." I've seen it, clinicians I respect have seen it. Again, longitudinal study of sexual identity, orientation, and behavior are fairly lacking.

Some people enter therapy because they're distressed about their low drive, because theirs does not match their partner's and that's causing strife, or they feel as if they are missing out (and there is a DSM entry for HSDD, so it's not by any means a rare phenomena) which can be due to a number of things.

Understand that a lack of sexual compulsion may be a stumbling block for discerning orientation, and that some things just need a little bit of sun and water to bloom, if you'll excuse the tortured metaphor.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've seen someone who would fit the HSTS category but for the fact that they have only had (relatively short) relationships with women. They also suffered really horrible child abuse — so I could imagine they are a fairly obvious example that could fit your coercive category.

Would the latency you describe include subtler examples of coercion?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well in HSTS, the family environment at home, and the socioeconomic background do appear to have impacts on persistence of GID. Generally speaking, the "worse things are," the more likely they are to persist, rather than desist. Environment does matter.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for sharing! I appreciate it.

There may be some evidence that orientation in some individuals can be "latent," and this does seem to be the case for several lesbian anecdotes I have collected, but understand, they never did get on well with men sexually to begin with. They didn't switch from heterosexual, they never were; just trying to play that social role.

Funny, that sounds somewhat similar to my own experience. For me, there was a clear coercive element to it; I wonder to what degree that plays into others' experiences.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I absolutely believe that coercion is capable of obscuring someone's innate sexuality for that individual. Or greatly confusing a person. That does not even necessarily have to play out in very overt ways, either. Nor does it have to be malicious. And certainly it's harmful to robust sexual identity formation, which should not be discounted as a part of anyone's overall psychological well being.

Up-and-coming homosexuals going on the internet today are being told they're bad people if they don't like the opposite sex. (Can't believe I just penned that sentence. What year is it?) But, I also think that much more subtle things may also have large impacts.

I mean, I've heard from gay people growing up in decades past in sheltered areas who knew they were different, but had never heard of gay people at all. Once they saw that there were others just like them, the light bulb went off. (Of course social conservatives--and Queer Theorists--love to hear this sort of thing.) It's not just about SSA, it's about a fundamental, radically different life trajectory. Not just which sex you happen to fancy.

[–]grixit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems to me irrelevant what the source of someone's orientation is. Whether they were "born this way", "always knew", "gradually realized", "suddenly realized", "tried it and liked it", or whatever-- none of that should affect a person's rights.

[–]blackrainbow 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The other day I read a queer activist saying that maybe we are not born this way and that homosexuality could be a choice... They are giving homophobes a lot of ammos...

[–]JulienMayfair 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But I assume they are claiming that gender identity is innate? Or are they?

[–]DestructionI ❤️ adult human females 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

History repeats itself, doesn't it?