DiscussionIf TRAs saying a boy in a dress is inherently trans is creepy, then so is obsessing over children's potential sexualities.

submitted by OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" from self.LGBDropTheT

Please, think about this. If TRA saying:

"My son likes to wear dresses so she's obviously a trans girl" or "My daughter is not like the other girls so he's a trans boy" is creepy, invasive, borderline pedophilic...

Then why is LGB "activists"/LGB alliance saying things like:

"Gender non conforming children will grow up to be gay!" "Your son isn't trans just because he likes dresses, he will grow up to be a happy gay man!" "Your daughter doesn't need testosterone, if she likes playing outside she is clearly going to be a butch lesbian!" On a photo of a little boy in a dress "Oh, he will become such a happy gay man!"

If you have problem with one of these, why is it okay to say the other? These are common phrases I see on this sub, and more importantly this godawful "LGB alliance" that's trying to take off. How do people not see the problem with this?

Let me spell it out.

Saying that "gender non conforming equals gay/lesbian" is:

  • Inherently anti-science, as it has no grounds in reality. Gender is, first of all, fake/socially constructed. No one is inherently traditionally masculine or feminine in "who they are", saying otherwise is exactly what trans belief is.

  • Nothing but a regressive stereotype. "Gay means girly" and "Lesbian means manly" are exactly the type of logic people use to mock homosexuals. It is actually the other way around. Because people believe homosexuality in males is "not manly" and is "manly" in women, homosexuals have an easier time being gender non conforming solely because they will get less hate for doing so.

  • Harmful to straight gender non conforming people. Most gender non conforming males I've met, for example, are straight. But they get relentlessly bullied by being assumed to be "gay" and "bottoms", I have seen this pushed so aggressively that it has had a serious negative effect on mental health.

  • Contrary to the gay/lesbian reality. Please take a look at any gay community, especially male ones. Gender non conformity is not the most common, in fact "gay culture" focuses a lot on traditional masculinity. I am a very gender non conforming homosexual male and I have never been able to feel like I fit in gay communities because I am not masculine.

Now, saying specifically that children who are gender non conforming will inherently grow up to be gay/lesbian? That is:

  • Incorrect, for the reasons listed above. Also, kids are kids and a lot of things are needlessly gendered with no basis in logic. I don't know anyone who conformed to traditional gender roles 100% as a kid.

  • Creepy. REALLY FUCKING CREEPY. Why are you thinking about a child's sexuality? Why does it matter? How is this any less creepy than obsessing over a child's "transition"?

And with the horrible stereotype that the feminine gay man is the "bottom" or the "bitch", that he is to take the inferior role for being "like a woman", then wtf are the implications of someone saying that a gender non conforming underage boy will become gay? Aren't you effectively saying "ah yes, this child will grow up to be a sex object for men because he's wearing a dress in this picture."

Please stop saying this stuff. Not only is it factually incorrect and as ridiculous of a claim as "inherent gender identity" - it's also going to paint homosexual people as pedophiles. Don't do it.

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[–][deleted] 29 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 0 fun30 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So, there's a lot going on in this post, but the correlation between GNC kids growing up to be LGB is actually substantiated by numerous large and small scale studies: http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html That's what it is, a correlation. I don't think anyone is saying there's inherent causation, and if they do, they're being disingenuous. I'm not sure why there's a correlation between being GNC as a kid and growing up to be LGB, but it does exist. I would say it's because LGB is so invisible in media, etc., that gay kids often "identify" with things associated with the other sex. I often dressed up for Halloween as a prince instead of a princess, for example, because I always related to the princes marrying the princess in all Disney/fairytale stories.

"homosexuals have an easier time being gender non conforming" I think is an objectively false statement, and I'm curious as to where you've gotten that impression. Butch lesbians and GNC gay men receive far more homophobic harassment in school and elsewhere in public spaces because they're more visible. I've received far less homophobic harassment since I started dressing more feminine than when I was a tomboy. I have no idea what goes on in gay male communities, but for lesbians, lesbian spaces are pretty much the only place butches and masc women can find support for being GNC.

I don't see how straight GNC people being targeted for misplaced homophobic harassment is the fault of gay people, especially gay GNC people. That's the fault of homophobes. I'm not sure what we're supposed to be doing about that. Edit: I think the main problem here is the suggestion that "the way to get ride of homophobic harassment is to get rid of the stereotype that being GNC means you're gay" when this doesn't get at the root of the problem, which is "why is it a bad thing to be associated with being gay"? Ultimately, it's homophobia that drives this harassment. If people accepted LGB as natural, no one would harass GNC straight people for their sexuality or how they dress/behave, no one would harass anyone for their sexuality and dress/behavior in general.

You are right that no one conforms 100% to gender roles as a kid, which is why they should be abolished.

There is a difference between fixating on children's sexuality and acknowledging that LGB children exist and need to be given the message that it's okay for boys to have crushes on boys and girls to have crushes on girls, and it's okay to dress however you want, regardless of who you get crushes on. If I had known lesbians existed as a child, that men can marry men and women can marry women, and been taught a message that homosexuality is natural, it would've saved me a lot of self-hatred, loneliness and depression growing up. There is nothing pedophilic about letting children know in an AGE-APPROPRIATE manner about same-sex attraction. Key word, age-appropriate.

Also, your last comment is... very strange, and I'm unsure what you're trying to say. I think anyone who looks at a child and thinks "this kid is going to grow up to be a sex object for men!' obviously has weird pedophilic tendencies and is also deeply homophobic because they inherently see gay men as being sex objects. I mean, if a boy were to come out by saying he has crushes on other boys, and a person's starts thinking about all the butt-sex the boy must be having when he grows up, that's because that person is just fucked up. I don't think that association has anything to do with acknowledging the fact that kids can be gay.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

also, link to the references for the follow-up studies: http://www.sexologytoday.org/2017/12/faulty-statistics-on-how-many-trans.html

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen"[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But people aren't seeing why the correleation is. It's not that gay men are inherently feminine and lesbian women are inherently masculine. Like I said, it's usually because society says homosexual = unmanly for men and manly for women, that you are "imitating the opposite sex." Boys get told that doing anything associated as "girl things" is "gay" from a very young age. I think I was only 8 or 9 when people started saying I "looked gay" for having long hair and things like that.

So naturally, it makes sense that homosexual people are more likely to express gender non conformity and not hide it, if they have no "gayness" to deny. It also sometimes goes the other way, you even have gay communities telling men they should be feminine if they are in the recieving role, so you get things like "sissification" porn which is all about sexually humiliating men by "turning them into women." This is also how the trans fetishism started.

I'm curious as to where you've gotten that impression. Butch lesbians and GNC gay men receive far more homophobic harassment in school and elsewhere in public spaces because they're more visible.

It's expected of gay people to be "different" or "weird" thanks to shitty stereotypes. But if straight people do it they get an extra level of harassment, compared to openly gay people. Straight guys will have "jokes" and mockery thrown their way about taking it up the ass and secretly being gay if they are "too girly."

I'm not saying being both GNC and gay is easy because it's not. Trust me, I get a lot of hate from both straight and bisexual/homosexual people alike. It sucks. But I feel like if you are OPENLY gay it's easier to get away with, less so if you are straight, or extremely "closeted"/denying it (like I do in real life.)

I don't see how straight GNC people being targeted for misplaced homophobic harassment is the fault of gay people

This seems like a strawman. I'm not blaming "gay people" as a whole. I am blaming pedophilic, creepy people on this sub & LGB alliance for being obsessed with children's sexualities that have yet to develop, and sexualizing children by saying they will grow up to be homosexual inherently just because they are little boys who wear dresses or little girls who play with trucks.

And my problem with it is that even if people like you claim "oh we're not saying they'll ALL be gay", that's what it sounds like. I never see any positivity for GNCness itself. I never see any positivity for GNC straight people. It's always about being gay.

Nobody, especially aligned with crap like LGB alliance, says things like "It's okay for boys to wear dresses, this does not mean they have female brains and need to be transitioned." It's always "It's okay for little gay boys to wear dresses and be fabulous gays, transitioning them is literal conversion therapy, even if they haven't expressed their sexuality yet!"

acknowledging the fact that kids can be gay.

But they can't. If a SMALL CHILD is "gay" then it's an expression of physical abuse and is not an "orientation." People are not born with sexualities and this stuff does not kick in pre-puberty. Children are too young to understand these concepts and it is extremely dangerous for adults to be projecting the concepts of gender identity and sexual orientation onto them.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tbh, I have no association with the LGBAlliance so I have no idea what kind of agenda they're trying to push or what the people involved in that organization are saying about GNC-ness, so I can't respond to any of those points.

However, your last point is blatantly incorrect and honestly offensive. People are born with sexualities. People are born gay and bisexual just as people are born straight. I had crushes on girls when I was 6 years old. I knew I liked only girls by the time I was 9 years old. I didn't start puberty until around 12. The sexual attraction doesn't start until puberty. But the orientation is still there. How the hell was me having a crush on my female friend at age 6 an expression of physical abuse??????? Straight people can talk about their stories of having crushes and holding hands with the opposite sex when they were little kids and it's regarded as normal and cute but suddenly when gay people do it it's physical abuse????? I was never physically or sexually abused as a child, but I still had gay crushes. Many, many, MANY gay people have similar stories, and knew they were gay before puberty. Explain that please??????

[–]reluctant_commenter 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Gender non conforming children will grow up to be gay!" "Your son isn't trans just because he likes dresses, he will grow up to be a happy gay man!" "Your daughter doesn't need testosterone, if she likes playing outside she is clearly going to be a butch lesbian!" On a photo of a little boy in a dress "Oh, he will become such a happy gay man!"

To some extent, I agree with you. It is weird and unnecessary that people are imposing these expectations on children at such a young age. It could be harmful regardless of whether the child turns out to be straight or LGB. If the child is straight, they may have people constantly pressuring them to "admit" that they are gay, and in effect get gaslighted as to what they actually feel in their body. If the child is gay, they may have people constantly pressuring them to "admit" that they are gay, when the child may not be ready to accept that, or simply not want to talk about it with acquaintances they don't know well.

However... I think you're mistaken on some points.

1 - There IS empirical evidence that many GNC kids grow up to be lesbian/gay/bisexual.

It is NOT anti-science to observe this fact, and I'm kind of amazed that you suggest otherwise. If you want to get into a discussion about research, I'm happy to if you are. While not all GNC kids are LGB, many are; and many LGB people are (or were as children) GNC. There are sizeable and above-chance correlations. (Does that mean we need to prescribe to children, "You're GNC so you must be gay!" and vice versa? No, absolutely not. That would be trying to force children to fit a certain mold. But the likelihood is there.)

2 - It is not creepy to discuss the factors in childhood that are associated with a likelihood of being gay.

Creepy. REALLY FUCKING CREEPY. Why are you thinking about a child's sexuality? Why does it matter? How is this any less creepy than obsessing over a child's "transition"?

Great question; I think there is a context in which it matters: when I look around at my female homosexual peers and say, "Good god, where did they all go?" or better yet, "Why are they all pretending to be men...?" Then in order to understand why they're all denying that they're gay women, I have to trace back to the roots of the transgender movement to figure out 1. what demographic is being target for trans medicalization (answer: GNC kids), and 2. what demographic is more likely to be GNC (answer: LGB people), and... then I have at least part of my answer, that's one reason why my female homosexual age peers are acting this way.

Please stop saying this stuff. Not only is it factually incorrect and as ridiculous of a claim as "inherent gender identity" - it's also going to paint homosexual people as pedophiles. Don't do it.

That is a false equivalency, comparing the claim that "LGB are more likely to be GNC; GNC are more likely to be LGB" to the belief in a "gender identity". One is a made-up construct that requires faith and is unfalsifiable, the other is a premise that may be debunked or supported by evidence. And research has shown that there is SOME truth to that claim. Not the same thing at all.

Again, I do agree with you that this rhetoric (I've seen it a lot on Twitter) about "let the child be gay in peace!" when they don't even know the kid's sexual orientation, is unnecessary and often harmful. It makes gender-conforming LGB people more invisible, as well. But I think it's important to acknowledge the real roots in empirical evidence that this mistake comes from. I think many people are just making well-intentioned but mistaken conclusions from these research studies.

[–]slushpilot 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think you make a valid point that obsessing over this stuff is weird. Also, does nobody else consider if kids are being overexposed to the complexities of adult sexuality, and that we should just let them grow up with a little more innocence? Questioning is an important process to developing a stable and secure identity. Let kids be themselves, they'll puzzle it out eventually!

Because when someone proclaims they have a "trans kid"—especially when they haven't even even reached puberty, and I would say even teenagers at this point—that's placing an expectation on how they will feel and see themselves after they mature. Projecting those expectations and confirming them is deeply wrong, since it denies children the ability to explore and find out where they fit into the world, so pushing this idea into young minds can only lead to harmful, irreversible decisions.

I don't think anybody is saying they will otherwise grow up to be gay. (Citation needed.) Saying the child might just be gay is the opposite of that. It's specifically avoiding any expectations, and it's not something that they can't figure out for themselves later after having at least been through a relationship or two on their own terms.

I think it's the declaration that they "will" become something that's the weird and creepy part—and it doesn't matter what it is.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen"[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly that. I was overexposed to sexual content as a kid and I think it warped my sexuality permanently. No I am not a "masturbation is bad, abstinence only" Christian, I just don't think that teaching young children (below teenagers) about detailed sex and orientation is healthy.

I don't think anybody is saying they will otherwise grow up to be gay.

This sub and LGB alliance twitters seem to claim otherwise.

[–]grixit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wow, first challenging post that i actually agree with. The idea of "gender nonconforming" is external to the individual, it's a judgement made by observers. Someone who is of one sex and does something that someone else put on a list of things associated with the other sex, says nothing about that person, it just proves once again that that list is wrong and should be abolished. Sexual orientation is about who you want to have sex with, not about what toys/clothes/hairstyles/etc you favored as a child.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agree that sexual orientation isn't about what toys/clothes/hairstyles/etc you favored as a child.

But it's not about who you want to have sex with. That's a fundamental important part of it, sure, but it's also about who you get crushes on, who you fall in love with, and that indescribable sense of who you're meant to be with. I was linked to a post on r/AskGayMen a few weeks ago, a commenter was a guy who said he felt he was predestined to fall in love with only men, to form connections with them, and to satisfy them both sexually and emotionally, and that's what being gay meant to him. That really resonated with my experience with women as a lesbian, and evidently other people too. So no, it's not just about sex, although sex is obviously a defining factor.

[–]SuperGayIsOkay 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're weirdly fixated on this I see. I remember you getting on your high horse about this as a weird comment response in another thread, where you basically misunderstood and proceeded to attack a strawman.

"Gender non conforming children will grow up to be gay!" "Your son isn't trans just because he likes dresses, he will grow up to be a happy gay man!" "Your daughter doesn't need testosterone, if she likes playing outside she is clearly going to be a butch lesbian!"

We don't say this. At all. Because they're clearly fucking stupid comments. We recognize that the reason religious conservatives are against gender nonconformity is because they're obsessed with the possibility their child might be LGB and they think gender nonconformity is a slippery slope that leads to that, but it doesn't mean the child is guaranteed to be LGB.

But hey, burn, strawman, burn, right?

There also seems to be some pearl-clutching hysteria from you here where you think a comment on a story about a kid being pressured into transition like "hey maybe this kid might be LGB" is somehow OH NO PEDOPHILIA, CALL THE COPS. Good luck working through... whatever's causing your issues there. Or don't, and just keep setting up those strawmen to burn, burn, burn.