all 39 comments

[–]Treeofthoughts 37 insightful - 2 fun37 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I am with you on this.

The counter arguement is that they existed but were hidden. But then so were we and our numbers have not exploded after legal equality.

There have always been straight male cross dressers. They used to hang around in gay bars together in the past. I never understand the motivations, but they were not there for gay rights, they were not gay and were often not afraid to make thier distain known. I think they have basically been rebranded, Eddie izzard used to say he was a cross dresser and not trans - now what is considered trans has increased from transsexual to include straight men who get a kick out of cross dressing.

This is the probelm with including a socially constructed category of people alongside immutable characteristics, thier category will expand and contract depending on the definition and the social pressures which push people into or out of the catagory.

So if it is fetishisation, in the very recent past it was not reasonable for a man to define himself by his fetish for dressing as a woman, or a woman to fetishise gay men. But the pressure on them to not do this is not as extreme.

I suppose rhe nearest parallel I can a draw is to the leather community, except they have not received sudden social acceptance, your work polices have not been rewritten to be more inclusive and non discriminatory against that fetish, and no political parties want to enhance protections for it.

Obviously the current trans umbrella covers many different things, and it is more complicated .

[–][deleted] 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The counter argument of “we were just invisible” doesn’t make sense. Really, you were completely 100% invisible throughout human history and cultures for thousands of years? Homosexuality was a death sentence in so many societies throughout history. We had every reason to be 100% invisible, but our existence is still documented nonetheless because our trait is immutable and natural and unchangeable. If your trait was immutable and natural and unchangeable, you would have persisted too! So I don’t buy that argument at all.

I didn’t know that about the straight male crossdressers of the past. Checks out though, transbians absolutely LOATHE “cis” gay men, find them disgusting, and care nothing about them, whereas “cis” lesbians have been allied with gay men since the beginning of gay rights.

Edit: worth noting that transbians don’t give a fuck about trans men too, they tend to infantilise them. Transbians don’t really care about anyone except themselves and demand that everyone else prioritizes and caters to them as well. It couldn’t be more obvious they’re imposters.

[–]Treeofthoughts 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It is a bit terrifying that I can look back long enough to refute some of this stuff - I am still in my 30s, I hardly have - longitudinal view, but some ideas are just wrong.

As for the whole of human history - GNC people have always been there, as have men and women who cross dress, often associated with magic/shamism/religion and prostitution. People who feel they are more like the gender of the other sex are not new, the way our culture is dealing with it is. I am comfortable with the idea what some people are going to be happiest living a trans life, and that it is not a new thing. I am not comfortable with all the social messaging around this, because support for GNC people should not only be medical interventions, and should not be conflated with being LGB. I also think the conflation of fetishising women’s clothes being conflated with trans and therefore with being LGBT is unhelpful.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm with you. I'm not talking about GNC people, I agree that and crossdressing has always existed regardless of sexual orientation. I'm talking specifically about heterosexuals identifying as homosexuals. That's where I look to history and see no precedence. Even in societies where homosexual behaviors were more tolerated. Where were the heterosexual females in ancient Rome "identifying" out of the female class, and into the class of men who have sex with men? Where were the men who called themselves "women who have sex with other women"? GNC and people who don't conform to gender roles have always existed, but they never denounced their heterosexuality. this obsession with identifying as homosexuals is completely new and only enabled due to the internet and in countries where the privilege makes it possible to do so.

Edit: I am completely fine with people with gender dysphoria seeking treatment. Transsexualism will always exist now that medical capabilities have made medical transition possible, because there will always be extreme cases where gender dysphoria is best treated with transition. That's fine. Just don't claim to be a homosexual because of it.

[–]Treeofthoughts 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh sorry I see what you mean. There is a thesis in that one ...

You are right, off the top of my head I can think of numerous historical examples of men cross sex dressing but it is always associated with homosexuality, from Ancient Rome to the vikings. Women are more complex but also there are lots of lesbian examples - but there are other historical reasons for a heterosexual women to be perceived as a man, but never as a homosexual man ! They would have lost all the advantage they sought to gain.

I think it is part of the reason I find it so shocking - heterosexuals identifying as homosexuals is something that I have only really encountered in the last two years. As you say, if the stigma of homosexuality was enough to 100% prevent any heterosexual identifying as a cross gender homosexual it makes it less likely that it is an immutable characteristic. Unlike homosexuality and gender non conformity (even a trans type experience of it) which despite being punished by death kept cropping up again and again.

So presumably there is another driver, either purely cultural and of our time, or a driver which is so weak that you can be put off forming thet identity for all times prior to the last few years/decades.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I complete agree. And it’s all good I probably could’ve phrased my original statements more clearly lol.

[–]powpowpowpow 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I am a straight woman and when I was a teen I was very confused about myself, I used to self harm and I was sexually harrassed which made me hate myself a lot.

Sometimes I would think about becoming a man because I thought it would make things easier, I also had a FtM friend and if I'm not mistaken there is a study showing that girls with trans friends often start idetifying as trans too.

As I grew up I stopped hating myself and being disgusted with my body, so to me its not only a trend and a fetish but also a major problem where they use and groom vulnerable kids to further their own movement

Edit: I also think they conveluted the meaning of "gender dysphoria" bc to me it seems like a rebranded body dismorphia, which is something I still suffer with but as I said nowadays I don't feel disgusted with my body anymore so it is mild now.

But when I would look up online as to why I hated my body so much, why I cried when I saw myself in the mirror all it would take me was to gender dysphoria.

Idk why I didn't get conviced I was trans, I think it was because I knew I didn't hate being female rather I hated what people did to me because I was female (sexual harrassment, older men chasing me on the street, etc...)

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I see. I can see what straight girls and women could identify as men due to misogyny and social pressure. Thanks for this comment.

[–]powpowpowpow 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks. I've seen MtF detransioners mention social pressure too and anxiety, there are a lot of autistic detransioners that ended up thinking they were trans too. I would say a large chunk of them are fetishists that drag others with them to feel as though their fetish is legitimate

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh ok. The idea that a heterosexual man who’s feminine could feel like a “failure of a man”, especially in today’s climate where believing you’re trans is one click away on any social media, seems plausible to me. But I do agree the vast majority are just plain fetishists.

[–]JulienMayfair 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You're touching on quite a few topics here, so it's tricky to pick out exactly what you want to focus on.

What I think is clear is that the intention behind cross-dressing is not all one thing. For example, you have drag queens who are cross-dressing primarily as camp, to mock gender roles by highlighting their artificiality and parodying the sometimes bizarre things done in the name of female beauty. Then you have, as you noted, male prostitutes who cross-dress to appear more feminine to a male clientele. Marsha P. Johnson was in both categories as an entertainer and as a prostitute. Then you have the heterosexual men who cross-dress because they find it sexually stimulating, but those men, again, as you point out, were never really historically part of the lesbian and gay communities. I went to gay bars less in the 00s than I did in the 1990s, but straight male cross-dressers were not to be found in the gay bars I went to in the 90s.

Also, significantly, gender transition used to be controlled by gatekeepers in psychiatry who tended to exclude these fetish cross-dressers from medical transition. As we've found out somewhat recently, these men did have their own groups, but they were not part of Gay Liberation. (It's been revealed that a straight male cross-dresser operated weekend retreats for a house in a rural area for men who wanted to cross-dress.)

So, yes, heterosexual male fetishistic transvestism has been around for a while, but it was quite distinct from the concerns of LGB activism and culture. These straight male transvestites have nothing in common with gay men, and it's pretty clear that, as a group, they don't give a shit about us. They value lesbians for validation and intensification of their fetish identity. They also occasionally try to get gay male drag queens banned from LGBT events because they realize that it's all a joke for them and they really hate that.

Finally, it's important to remember that when "LGBT" was coined, straight cross-dressing men were not part of that. The T was included because of homosexuals who decided to transition. But even then, at the time, which I remember, we really had no clue as to what allying ourselves with the T would result in 30 years later.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah I made this post sleep deprived so I sort of rambled a bit. Thank you for the context and info from your experience! I completely understand why the T was originally included. I did not know that straight male crossdressers had their own groups but I suppose that makes sense, niche heterosexual fetish communities have always existed. Marquis de Sade wrote about secretive groups of men who would engage with prostitutes in what would be known today as BDSM interests, so. Believable

[–]JulienMayfair 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I did not know that straight male crossdressers had their own groups

Well, the salient points are that 1) these groups were not common, and 2) it was all done in privacy and in secrecy. The only reason we know is that historical photos have surfaced.

And there were women, like dominatrices, who catered to this fetish, dressing men up in women's lingerie and humiliating them.

As with many things, it's the internet, for better or worse, that has allowed straight male transvestites to become transwomen with an axe to grind.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I follow you. Thanks for the input.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a post for s/GCdebatesQT

[–]nettygay5 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (14 children)

I think we're being dishonest here. Yes, these people are NOT a part of us and they will never contribute to gays/lesbians in any way. It's all new for them. The second the stigma of homosexuality was reduced and put on homophobia and heterosexuals started to feel guilty about their persecution of gays/lesbians, all these bisexuals suddenly started flooding our commuities as sex tourists to "explore" that 5% of gay in them.

Then when the stigma reduced even more, all these straight men and women started "exploring" themselves. The only people with a real, SOLID sexuality are homosexuals. Not because we're better or superior, but because every single step of the way throughout history, through torture, death, murder, disgust and humiliating us into death and making homosexuality a clown show out of sheer hatred and fear to make sure NO ONE ever engages in a homosexual act and erases it from their culture, gay and lesbian children just grew up painfully grew up with the fact that theyre homosexuals even if they didnt have the word for it. They knew what they were and it took over a thousand years of sacrifice to achieve a sense of dignity as "homosexuals" even if we didnt have a word for it for the longest time. We've proven with 2000 years of murder that there is proof that a specific group of people have an innate excluisve same sex attraction no matter what you do or say or brainwash them with they are permanently gay.

Heterosexuality is a made up word gay people made up to make a more neutral term. Before heterosexual vs homosexual, it was just "normal people vs FGGTS". Thats seriously it. It was man+woman sex vs animal fucking, FGGTS, having sex with trees and rocks...we didnt "exist" in their eyes. WE gave them the word heterosexual so we could give ourselves the word homosexual. Trans people learned this from us and used "cis vs trans". Homosexuals proved we exist no matter how much you oppress us.

But what we gays like to ignore is that "heterosexuals" are a very complex and deeply complicated group of people. Heterosexuality is an "idea" for them to be oppressed and aspire to. If you dont pressure and contain them into this label, they collapse into 600,000 different identities and labels. A lot of their labels are fake and superficial and a joke but their "gender" is highly performative. Gays and lesbians can do and act however we want but they cant. It's deeply infused into their bones that you're not a real man if you do this and you're not a real woman if you dont do this. They genuinely believe this stuff.

Gays and Lesbians keep forgetting that we're still an "abomination" to them because we "break gender". Thats our biggest achievement. If we let this go, they'll convince us that we're really inverts and "women trapped inside a man's body" or "a man trapped inside a woman's body". I genuinely think we just have to hold on and survive the heterosexuals. Theyre working through their problems. All these straight trans people show us is that we have been given proof that it wasnt internalized homophobia that was making us think we were trans because these people dont suffer from internalized homophobia like we do. It shows it's a gender problem. The gay civil rights movement was to show gender and sex dont have to "match". Straight people are brainwashed to believe it does. And when you're in a liberal environment to be whomever you want to be (given to you by gay people) then you express all your hidden trauma and their trauma is their gender.

i seriously thought they hated us because of our homosexuality but it seems we truly disgust heterosexuals/bisexuals because of our "gender"?

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

So hey, welcome to this sub. We try to stay away from broad, derogatory generalizations here about members of our own group (LGB). I encourage you to consider the parts of your response which appear to be veering into that territory; it is both inaccurate and alienating to others here. It's possible to talk about one's experiences without negating or devaluing others. No one here needs or deserves to have it stated or implied that their sexual orientation is not real, for example.

Thanks for considering. Cheers.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I think it's exponent2 or grammaroo with another new account. He used to blame lesbians for everything that's wrong with LGB, but now he's moved on to including bisexuals. He rarely criticises gay men and he very often uses capitals to emphasise his points. Just look up grammaroo's post history and you'll see what I mean.

Edit: he's also very long winded and drags things down the pyramid of debate. Debate with him, if you dare.

[–]Treeofthoughts 12 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

There are some fascinating people on this sub.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

He has actually been hating on bisexuals for a while too, he started doing that like 5 accounts or so, haha. And straight women. All those evil bisexuals, lesbians, and straight women... and all straights... pretty much only gay men he won't go after.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I saw him complaining about black gay men, so I guess they're not safe either.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I keep telling people to ignore this dumbass bc nothing he says makes any sense and goes on long rants about the evils of lesbians and bisexuals. Man’s a troll

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This appears, upon inspection of the comment history, to be sound advice.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Wouldn't be surprised if he upvotes his own comments with some of those dozen or so other accounts he's made, haha.

[–]nettygay5 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

heterosexuality is a category made by a gay social scientist. im not saying it's not "real". If "straight" men and women werent attracted to each other, civilization would collapse and we'd all go extinct. I'm just saying theyre using categories we gave them because when theyre considered normal, theyre just invisible, common and all encompassing. Just like how we roll our eyes at the word "cis". And we dont have a category for people with 2 eyes. I just meant theyre a bit more complicated and their identity is a bit more sophisticated than just "heterosexual". Just look at the explosion of bisexuals.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 9 insightful - 8 fun9 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

Just look at the explosion of bisexuals.

Oh no! We already have scary levels of poverty and poor mental/physical health-- now we're EXPLODING, too???

Maybe, like so many things in movies that are prone to inexplicable detonation, we are (as per the trope) Made of Explodium?

Guess the good lord took a likin' to us bisexuals (and made us up blow up real good).

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Prove to me it's not a privileged fetish and new-age trend.

I suspect the paraphilia has existed for some time now. It was just unquestionable to privately act on it, let alone announce it to the world. This was all set in motion back when we were swinging from the trees and we evolved concealed ovulation. The Internet played a big role; there was no way to socialize on this prior.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh yeah I believe the paraphilia has existed. Definitely the sexual aspect of imagining yourself as the other sex or crossdressing in the bedroom. But actually living out the fantasy full time 24/7 is new.

[–]julesburm1891 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’ve never quite worked out why we don’t see swathes of kids with gender dysphoria in non-Western countries. Where are all these kids in Mali, China, or Nicaragua? I’ve also never understood how people ignore that this is 20th and 21st century phenomenon. Likewise, it doesn’t make sense why the rates of transition aren’t consistent across age in a single culture. If something has no historical record, tends to only happen in certain cultures, and has completely different generational occurrences, maybe it’s just a social trend. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Exactly. which is why I cannot wait for it to die out. I think there will always be corners of the internet that are dedicated to sustaining trends. There are still niche forums dedicated to satanic panic, for example. But it will depart mainstream eventually. Only difference is when that happens, LGB will have no credibility, will most likely face significant blowback and challenges to our legal rights and protections. I’ve said this before but in time, many of the TQ will ditch “progressivism” and any gender or queer identities they have in favor of right wing conservative views of gender roles and homosexuality. They already believe homosexuality is a choice/close-minded, and that women who step out of line should be severely punished. The rest isn’t far.

[–]julesburm1891 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolutely. I think this is a combination of malleable adolescents who don’t know any better and narcissistic assholes who don’t care if they tear apart LGB progress as long as they get their kicks.

[–]grixit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

TRAs love to point to cultural "third genders" as a gotcha, but those "third gender" categories applied to homosexual or bisexual men as a way to other them from society

It clear that those are not actually genders, they are castes.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes exactly.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's basically autogynophylia latching onto the gay trans people for credibility in pushing their fetish into the public. I can remember lots of references to bedroom crossdressing in pop culture... But it was just considered a sexual fetish.

For some reason autoandrophylia seems like something completely different. It's like the men who do it are sexualizing and objectifying themselves and the women who do it are obsessed with dating gay boys so they need to be a man in order to objectify the gay guy.

In my opinion.

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

(relatlvely) Famous heterosexual trains ppl....

Sandy Stone - Was actively causing division in rad fem communities in the 70s. Kate Bornstein - wrote former trans cannon "Gender Trouble" Lou Sullivan (one of her famous quotes, getting and dying of aids validated her gender identity as a gay man)

Ppl like Deirdre McClosky, Lili Elbe, Christine Jorgenson, Lynn Conway and Andrea James are also famous AGPs (not quite the same as straight per say but like, all were married to women and many had kids at one point I believe). A lot of them went on to having sex with men post surgery so it's a little unclear where they fall but they def't were not HSTSs.

Anne Lawrence is a famous AGP who wrote Men Trapped in Men's Bodies, so, totally hated by modern trains.

So, they do exist, for better or worse.

You may also want to look up Virginia Prince's history, a pioneer in today's current trans movement as much as they've disowned him for gatekeeping and elitism -

Admittedly he was pushing for trasvestistic fetishism, but also "Living as a woman full time" in drag.

So again, they're actually there / around. There were any number of AGPs/straight men, etc. And I'm not even a major academic source on this stuff but that's who I know.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So I looked these people up, and this is still directly corresponding to period of time of the rise of postmodernist movement and queer and gender theory that originated in French and American universities (Foucault etc). Also, they still weren’t involved in gay rights. Lou Sullivan was a rapist and aids-chaser, lol. Which brings me back to my question: where were heterosexuals indentifying as homosexuals throughout history and culture outside of this recent social/philosophical movement in (privileged) countries. GNC, crossdressers, and AGP has existed but they never denounced their heterosexuality until recently. This ain’t even a bad faith question I’d really just like to see a historical example

[–]Femaleisnthateful 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As I understand it, homosexual transexualism ("so gay they went girl") has always been around. This is what transactivists often refer to as 'third genders' in southeast Asia and other cultures. They always gloss over the fact that these 'third genders' arise out of cultures which have rigid gender roles and are homophobic.

I have yet to see evidence of AGP transexualism practiced or endorsed anywhere else in the world. This appears to be a distinctly western phenomenon.