Men's Issues"Looking for Trans Only" men on Grindr.

submitted by Criticallacitirc from self.LGBDropTheT

Just thought I'd share my anecdotal experiences & observations on grindr.

Without revealing too much about myself. I'm a man who's not masculine or feminine, I do have shoulder length hair, generally thin and very little body hair. That being said, I'm obviously man and do not come across as androgynous to the point my sex isn't clear.

I see lots of men on grindr who say they are looking for trans only. I never try to talk to these people for the obvious reason that I'm not trans.

I am however noticing a pattern of me getting messages from these men. Last night I got a message from a profile who literally read " Only message me if you are trans, all others will be blocked". So when he messaged me I said, yo...I'm not trans . His response was "yeah but you're cute" This is the 3rd time I've had a similar exchange.

I also see a pattern of these dudes being into trans women , femme boys , and twinks.

I'm sure most of these men consider themselves straight and the trans movement is happy to prop up this idea because it helps to validate their identities as well.

However it's painfully obvious these men are bisexual, with a preference for people with "feminine " features . I can understand these men not wanting to say they are bisexual because they aren't interested in people who appear masculine. I really think if we could come up with a term for people who are bisexual but exclusively attracted to people who are feminine only or masculine only, it would stop all the discourse & keep these people from squatting in the terms gay, lesbian & straight.

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[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 27 insightful - 5 fun27 insightful - 4 fun28 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

When I first came out there were a couple of guys like this at my local club who also went to my gym. They were huge muscular men who hung out together and presented as straight but their "girlfriends" were transwomen.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The technical term for the phenomena is gyneandromorphophilia. It exists only in men. It's a paraphilia. They desire cross-dressed and/or feminized/feminine males, usually in addition to women, but sometimes exclusively.

Ultimately, human sexuality is too complex when you get to the edge cases to classify everything simply as het/homo/bi.

Bisexual identification among these men has been shown to correlate with another paraphilia, autogynephilia. Otherwise they usually just identify as straight.

[–]Criticallacitirc[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I question if all of these guys fit into the GAMP box. To my understanding that meant attraction to people with male & female features. How do effeminate men , or even just hairless men fit into that ?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GAM, as the the object of desire, covers MTF transsexuals and/or cross-dressing. It's not exactly a black-and-white categorization. More like a gradient.

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Have you seen this video of a GAMP (or perhaps he wouldn't be considered a GAMP?) being confronted with the fact that he's dating a male? Apparently this guy has only dated women before his current boyfriend (Blaire White). I personally believe this guy is a closet bi (or possibly gay, definitely likes males; Blaire has a dick), though he is possibly also a fetishist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgdr-8TmImo

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Also Blaire White w/ boyfriend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiFPIfN99N0

Start at 1:30 and we get to "gyneadromorphophilic" at minute two.

[–]usehername 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This one is also relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehQWvlSxbOQ

Apparently they started dating before Blaire got a boob job or facial feminization surgery, so does Joey really fit into the GAMP box? I mean, not even tits, that's just a man in makeup. Seems like he is some level of actually bi. Would you consider him a GAMP, and if so, do you think he isn't bi, and is only a fetishist? I'd like your opinion.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

that's just a man in makeup

Yeah, that's included in GAMP, conceptually. Blanchard collected an anecdote from a man who's ideal erotic target was a person who was completely indistinguishable from a natal woman, but who at one point in the past had been a man man. This falls into the same bucket. Human sexuality can be directed towards abstract concepts.

I mean, this isn't set in stone, this taxonomy. IIRC Joey has dated women and trans women, not men. So I wouldn't lump him into bi, since bi is generally understood to be people into men and women. Sure, you can stuff it into bi, if you want to, but I think it's worthwhile to keep a typology that would indicate the qualitatively different sorts of things then all being labeled bisexual. Especially with regard to the particular fascination that some men have towards trans women. Other things come into play when developing the taxonomy, like masochism. There's a concept called "forced bi" where the male partner is made to have sex with another man at the behest of a dominant woman and finds this activity to be erotic, yet would never pursue men outside of the sadomasochistic context--which is the erotic locus. I think reducing conceptualization of what goes on in fringe phenomena to what sets of natural genitalia people have will elide important aspects. It also has societal impacts, since the guys marching in the pride parade in full pup-play outfits are all equipped with natural dicks and share a common interest in them, but I'd like to focus on the pup-play thing there.

I don't think Joey is a closeted bisexual or gay man, in the classic sense. Now we can disagree exactly what Joey has going on, but it's obvious that something's up with him that's not the norm. He's got his face plastered all over YouTube. His whole family knows that he's engaged to Blaire, It does not stand up to scrutiny to me that he's closeted in any fashion. If he is, that's some pretty wild formulation of internalized homophobia.

In Joey's case, I'm inclined to believe his self-report of GAMP.

I think your thought process touches something along the lines of that GAMP isn't a phenomena at all and men who are interested in trans women, generally, are just plain old bisexuals, albeit very screwed up ones, in terms of etiology and desire?

[–]JulienMayfair 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

These are what are known as "chasers." I fooled around with a bi-curious guy in college, and he later told me that what he really wanted was "a chick with a dick." I guess there's also a market for "a man with a pussy."

[–]Criticallacitirc[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Ya but why are chasers chasing me ? Lol

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It might sound a little strange but I've heard of highly-autogynephilic men who actually would have sex with a man in order to "affirm" his self-image as being a woman. Many chasers are also autogynephilic. Perhaps that's the case for some of them?

For others, they may be closeted bisexual men as you described. It seems like there is a lot of bisexual erasure for men in particular. I'm not familiar with the dating scene for gay/bisexual men, though, so I'm just speculating.

edit: Also that sounds annoying, sorry you're dealing with that.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

There is a lot of erasure for bisexual men. I acknowledge that bisexual men exist, but you’d be surprised with the amount of people who believe that only women can be bisexual. And then you have people who acknowledge that bisexual people exist, but don’t want to date them. Which is fine, we’re all entitled to our preferences, we can’t help what we’re attracted to and not attracted to, but there are a lot of gay men, straight women and even bisexual women who won’t date bisexual men simply because of ignorance.

Another thing to consider, if a man is bisexual, he is way more likely to end up with a woman than with a man as a life partner. There are significantly more straight/bisexual women than there are gay/bisexual men. If a bisexual man lives in a society where bisexuality is taboo or misunderstood, he’s going to rule out dating, marrying, civilly uniting with or cohabiting with other men. Men don’t like to deal with hassle unless it’s necessary for us to deal with it, and I can imagine that explaining to people over and over again that you go both ways gets tiring, especially when the people asking you these questions are being confrontational and rude. So I don’t blame bisexual men for being closeted. But it is a shame, because I would like my dating pool to go up.

[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Funny, I have encountered a surprising amount of people who believe that bisexuality doesn't exist, period. And then you have the opposite problem: bisexual people who think that everyone must be bisexual, just because they are. Lol. If everybody could just do a little perspective-taking, maybe we would all understand each other better.

Yup, all good points.

So I don’t blame bisexual men for being closeted. But it is a shame, because I would like my dating pool to go up.

I totally feel you, dude. Many bisexual women are also closeted, and some small but vocal proportion seem to actually be women who aren't same sex attracted at all and self-describe as being "bisexual" for other reasons.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I also know people who believe that bisexuals aren’t real; that bisexuals are either closeted homosexuals or attention-seeking heterosexuals. So far, none of them have shamed a bisexual person for being bisexual, at least not that I know of, so I’ve never felt the need to get them to acknowledge that bisexuality is real. But when these people ask me why I acknowledge the existence of it, I simply compare bisexuality to being ambidextrous and also point out that, there being two sexes, it’s not entirely impossible that a small proportion of the adult population could like both sexes. But all I do is explain, I don’t preach. And to be fair, while I can acknowledge that bisexuality is real, I can never understand what it would be like to be bisexual, because I’m not. And on the flip side, a bisexual man can never understand what it’s like for me to be gay, nor what it’s like for my dad or my brother to be straight. But I could imagine being bi as best I can, and imagination is where empathy comes from.

I find it ironic that so many bisexual women are closeted, while so many straight or lesbian women say they’re bisexual. I can understand a lesbian calling herself bisexual at the start of her self-discovery, because oftentimes a homosexual finds out that he or she has same sex attraction before he or she realises that he or she lacks opposite-sex attraction. That happened to me; I was 17 when I was certain I liked men, and 18 when I was certain I had no interest in women. But I don’t get why a straight person, woman or man, would pretend to be bisexual. For the record, I can understand a bisexual person who’s married to a person and has previously dated people of that one sex, while never having experiences with anyone from the other sex, because probably or whatever.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But I don’t get why a straight person, woman or man, would pretend to be bisexual.

I don't think it's likely a straight man would, not even briefly for kicks. The risk of being seen as gay would be too great for most of them, as they would very likely to be rounded up to 6 on the Kinsey scale. Would nuke most of their chances with the opposite sex at that point.

A straight woman(of progressive political leanings) might, because the risk of being seen as homosexual(and judged as such) is less for women and because bisexuality is also frequently considered merely a lifestyle choice for liberals "open-minded" about sexuality. Strategically required or not, I think this is an unfortunate consequence of tying the LGB so closely with one political side. It becomes like the "political lesbian" situation with feminists. Both letters can be seen as a type of lifestyle/political decision, so you get lots of activist heterosexuals wearing a letter- like a statement of their own ideology/affiliations.

Also, there's this thing in younger progressive circles, an obligatory sex-positivity, where it's considered uptight and old-fashioned to be in any way reserved about your sex life. I do believe it's responsible for the propagation of all of these more recent gendered abstractions around sexuality from the left. Because a lot of people are naturally not going to be all, "Hey, Look at me!" about sex.

Many people prefer to keep that aspect of their life private and unadvertised. But what happens when their demographic or political alignment makes advertising publicly about your sex life practically compulsory? You can buffer yourself from that by building a wall of nonsensical weasel words(gender-speak) between you and the reality of sex, like many do(which subsequently helps to erase boundaries and paves the way for sexual opportunists/predators).

But an easy way to get the sex-positivists off your back is to simply identify as bi. Because bi trumps even promiscuous straight when it comes to sex-positivity and openness. What could be more open-minded than someone who would date both sexes and copulate with everything that moves? I mean, that's not what bisexuality actually is, but that's how the thinking goes, at least for females.

Anyway, when it comes to myself, I appropriated straight long before I identified as bi. I simply low-key projected my own sexuality on to heterosexuals all up until I became an adult. Before then, I figured that's how straight people actually were, but no one admitted to their same-sex attraction due to the stigma. Whoops...

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The compulsory sex positivity in woke circles is definitely a serious problem. Not that there’s anything wrong with being sexual, but it’s okay to have a strict attitude towards your own sexuality. In fact, I don’t even consider it sex negative to treat your sexuality as a private matter or to self-regulate your sexuality, I consider it a good thing, because sex has consequences and it therefore needs to be treated with respect. Plus, there is a time and a place for it. You are not free unless you are in control of your sexuality. And the fact that these woke liberals don’t see it is a sad reflection on society.

[–]usehername 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I guess you're feminine enough for them (closet bi guys). Do you have facial hair?

[–]Criticallacitirc[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No facial hair. If I appear feminine, it's just because of my hair, my build I guess. I don't do anything in terms of mannerisms or dress that I would label as feminine.

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

These guys are deep in the closet.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A bisexual person can like both sexual organs but only being into femininity or masculinity. I think they're just bisexual who mostly lean toward heterosexuality. You appear feminine, so you're attractive to them.

[–]artetolife 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A person could go crazy trying to make sense out of the ridiculous things that repressed bisexuals say and do.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Doesn’t matter what kind of males these men are into, those men are still bisexual. The fact that they continued to find you attractive even after you explained to them you’re not trans and not effeminate is proof that those men are bi. The men don’t have to be open about their orientation, but they are on Grindr looking for males, so obviously they’re not straight. And yes, it’s okay to be attracted only to certain kinds of men. I’m not attracted to effeminate men, those men who are hitting you up are not attracted to masculine men, we all have our preferences and we shouldn’t be ashamed to declare them.

If these "straight" men keep pursuing you, don’t be afraid to keep the conversation going with them. You don’t have to date them or anything, but talking to them can help them to make sense of their own orientations and realise that men can also have long hair. Not only would this help them, it would also help any potential sons of these men who might be effeminate or bisexual, or both. This could prevent a future trans kid down the line. And if one of these men end up coming out as bisexual, you could say that you helped him, and subliminally, the male bisexual community in general.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The words you are looking for are gynosexual (femininity) and androsexual (masculinity)

I would not worry too much about why they contact you, the genderists think when you have long hair you're a girl and short hair a boy. They are just idiots. Just ignore them

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I may have read this wrong initially, but do they think you're a trans-id male ("trans woman") or a trans-id female ("trans man")? I thought you meant they thought you were female, but I'm reading a lot about trans-id males in the comments lol.

[–]Criticallacitirc[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm 6'3 I don't think they think I'm a Biological female. Lol. I don't even think they think I'm trans. I guess I was trying to make a counter point to the people that say that the men who sleep with TW aren't bi or gay. But I see men who are into TW & also into me a man ( I guess feminine appearing man 🙄)...so they are atleast bisexual.

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see what you mean. Yeah, I agree here. I know that it's possible for a fetish to override one's orientation (that's part of the diagnostic criteria for paraphilic disorder), so I don't doubt that some "chasers" aren't into normal men, and specifically like TW for fetishistic reasons, but I think you're right that a ton of them are closet bi/gay.