Men's IssuesI don't feel welcome anywhere as a gay man

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[–]DrMantisToboggan 32 insightful - 3 fun32 insightful - 2 fun33 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

The problem with many of these groups is that they've been co-opted by radical feminists who want to blame everything on men. Of course, not all radical feminists are like that. I find there are often double standards applied, for instance, they hate it when homosexual males talk about their aversion to vagina, yet many of them can talk about how disgusted they are about dick. I've read a few threads on Ovarit where they say gay men are the ultimate misogynists because our attraction is phallocentric...well duh, we're gay men...we like dick. Are we supposed to center our male homosexuality around feminism? I mean there's no such thing as male feminists, we can only be allies. I've read other threads that talk about how entitled gay men are, yet no mention to the entitlement many straight women feel they have to our spaces, whether it's drunk straight girls sucking up all the oxygen in gay bars or LARPing "gay" transmen. Thanks to woke intersectionality, gay men are at the bottom of the totem pole since we're now seen as some of the most privileged people in society.

[–]fuck_reddit 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also an example of why intersectionality is bull. There are some characteristics that immediately force you to the bottom of the totem, no matter how many other good one’s you have. For a very long time, that was how it was for gay people (and honestly, still is in a lot of ways)

[–]Horror-SwordfishI don't get how flairs work 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I'm finding, as I get older, that I care less and less and less about labels and identities and stuff. Would it be nice to have gay male friends that know what it's like to grow up gay men in the late 90s/early 00s? Sure. But honestly, every single person's experience in life is so different that I find it better to just hang out with a group of friends from different walks of life. Maybe that's very 90s of me, I dunno.

My friend group is two gay guys, a straight married couple, a double-divorcee and his girlfriend, and all of them bring friends from their circles sometimes to our hang outs, and we all get along great and have fun together. Maybe think about why you want to be part of an LGB group specifically. I get that it's an easy in when you're gay, because you automatically think, "Okay, we've got something in common and I know that they'll not care about me being gay," but really, most groups you can find based around any common interest (hobby groups, for example) won't care if you're gay nowadays.

I know it feels bad to not feel like you belong, especially with a group that you've always felt a sense of belonging with before, but maybe you should take these feelings as a sign to look outside LGB and into other groups of people that you have something in common with. You might surprise yourself with how well you fit in somewhere else.

[–]PriestTheyCalledHimBisexual 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am bisexual and feel the same way. Local bisexual and LGBT discussion/social groups have been taken over by trans, NB, and asexuals that bully, monopolize discussion or make it ALL about them and not about being bisexual and then say how we bisexual people must identify as pansexual, or worse the slur queer 'deeer because bi means two and it is transphobia!' and that we must sleep with, date, partner with trans people despite how we are not attracted to them...😒

[–]Fusrodamus 13 insightful - 10 fun13 insightful - 9 fun14 insightful - 10 fun -  (2 children)

Leading with the phrase "not all men" probably wasn't the best idea you've ever had.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

How dare you summarize my 9 paragraph comment in one sentence 😂

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Why? Saying "Not all men are bad" in response to a broad generalization being made about men is reasonable. Granted, we don't know the context of why OP's argument arose; maybe he was talking about a behavior that, say, 95% of men do, in which case it would be silly and minimizing the issue. But we don't accept people making broad generalizations about women or about LGB people, so why is it OK when directed at any other demographic?

I'm a woman and have feminist views myself, and I see no reason for feminists to endorse this kind of cognitive distortion. It's illogical.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

In general it's why I am kinda cautious of these movements even if I support the principal behind this movement. The fact that TRAs throw the term TERF around doesn't mean actual misandristic rad fems don't exist. Whether you argue they have "power" is kinda irrelevant to me as I just hold anyone that dares to reduce people down to their identities with contempt. It's the same issue I have with the trans movement as well.

Plus I don't hate people who are trans outside of those that intrude on others spaces and make threats. If anything the reason I think it's important to be skeptical of both who gets defined as "trans" and treatment is to avoid tons of innocent people being gaslight into drugs that won't deal with the various problems and insecurities that plague them.

Though I understand not feeling you ever fit into the stereotype group you should belong to. One of the many reasons I was denial about being bi was that I didn't really care for what often got sold to be as LGBT culture by the mass media. In large it may be seen as sitting on the fence but I think it's important not to anchor yourself to any organization or group and just stay true to your values. It's not like fitting in or not changes your sexuality.

I will say that while plenty of say bad MTF are influenced by misogynistic beliefs plenty are also misandristic. There are a lot of issues I think especially boys confront early on that don't give them proper role models from a young age and where they can't feel secure in themselves as men. In the more progressive wings being a straight dude can be seen as a sin. Way too many people here just want to argue all these issues are just down to misogyny.

Even for FTMs they just argue it's body hatred caused by misogynistic views regarding woman's bodies and while true for some they ignore how fetishtic those communities can be no different than MTFs. They also do ignore many guys try to transition also partially due to body hate or insecurity.

Partially the reason I created this account at all was to show not every dude with AGP is some misogynistic bastard with a porn addiction issue shoving it into everyone's face and wanting to rape lesbians.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Partially the reason I created this account at all was to show not every dude with AGP is some misogynistic bastard with a porn addiction issue shoving it into everyone's face and wanting to rape lesbians.

I'm glad you did! Also, I've got a bi male friend who has AGP (albeit probably a mild case), in no way considers himself a woman, and is TERFy af (vocal about how dudes-with-ladyfeelz are NOT women, need to stay out of women's spaces/sports, and leave lesbians the hell alone). It probably helps that his AGP (he himself refers to it as such) is something that he does not feel good about (regards it as an embarrassment).

All of which is to say... yeah, it's not so much the AGP itself as how a guy handles it. Of course, all too many handle it in creepy, predatory, bullying ways, unfortunately.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah my hope is that by being at least more open about it without shame some will realize it for what is a weird sexual fetish or obsession instead of trying to "legitimize it" through the trans movement. It is even more annoying some might even view my comments as being some secret egg that needs to be cracked.

Personally it's not really an obsession it's just sometimes I want to be GNC and see myself this way. I like being a guy though 90% of the time and I am happy with who I am. A ton of stuff I am happy I don't have to deal with that women do have to.

I honestly think it only developed due to being insecure about being bi which is why in large for me unlike say a lot of people that fantasize about being a lesbian for me it's more being a straight woman. There is also the desire of wanting to be with say a dude I care about but it still being kinda socially iffy for me to do so and if I was a woman I wouldn't have to worry about that. Honestly that line of thinking is how many LGB individuals are being gaslighted into life altering stuff.

Regardless I think society has to come to that reckoning and I hope it's not because of tons of detrans people who have had their lives ruined due to medical malpractice. You can't change biological sex we don't live in some super advanced sci fi world there are many limitations on what we can do with the human body. Personally I am someone who can find say men who try to be very feminine and women masculine attractive but I can't lie in both cases the reasons why they are attractive to me is not the same reason why a typical woman or man would be attractive. Injecting hormones is not giving you a cyberpunk redo of your body.

In large I don't like know the bad stigma associated with the term though I do understand why.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Between your friend, Coruscant, and me (with AAP) I'm starting to wonder if there's a correlation between bisexuality and AGP/AAP lol.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You would think but honestly especially with the recent trans movement it seems like a lot of people seem to be straight. It's something to look at though I suppose it's not like there isn't plenty of stuff at least on the AGP side that if you project into the feminine perspective would easily be considered very bi in nature or exploring at least. I can't say for AAP.

That said the amount of trans people trying to co-op the gay or lesbian communities likely because they are straight goes against that view I have. Then again maybe it's more about sexual validation than anything else IDK.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will say that while plenty of say bad MTF are influenced by misogynistic beliefs plenty are also misandristic. There are a lot of issues I think especially boys confront early on that don't give them proper role models from a young age and where they can't feel secure in themselves as men. In the more progressive wings being a straight dude can be seen as a sin. Way too many people here just want to argue all these issues are just down to misogyny.

Even for FTMs they just argue it's body hatred caused by misogynistic views regarding woman's bodies and while true for some they ignore how fetishtic those communities can be no different than MTFs. They also do ignore many guys try to transition also partially due to body hate or insecurity.

Completely agree. I worry a lot that mainstream media outlets, when they do report on an alternate take from the trans lobby's creed, do not incorporate these details. The picture is more nuanced than just "girls hate themselves so they transition, okay we're done we've solved the transgender debate!!"

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I'm not in any LGB discords so I can't say for certainty what the other person was feeling, but I'll try to provide some insight. I'm also not a radical feminist as I don't subscribe completely to their beliefs, but my own beliefs are radfem aligned in many ways.

As someone who got extremely angry at a friend who said this same thing to me while I was venting about a male stalker, I don't think you should've been attacked, but I do want to try to explain the response you got. I'll just copy and paste my comments from Ovarit here, as there's a thread going on with a similar premise:

When I say 'I hate men' I don't hate them simply for being male. I hate them when they turn a blind eye to their friends making sexist jokes. I hate them when they say getting catcalled isn't a big deal. I hate them when they blame us for being raped based on alcohol consumption or wardrobe choices. I hate them for refusing to even attempt to understand why we hate them.

"if being male makes them being bad regardless of what they do... why would they try to be better?"

This is what I mean by missing the nuance. Of course I don't speak for every woman, but I do not think being male is what makes them bad. It's the misogyny, the violence, the lack of empathy, the subtle sexism of talking over women, infantilizing women, etc that makes them bad. For me personally, in addition to all of that, most of all it is the refusal to be better when shown their crimes that makes them bad, and makes me hate them the most.

Men who would rather hate women and close their minds to feminism because they have wrongly internalized 'I hate men's misogyny and violence' as 'I hate men for being male' are missing the point. Men are not hated for things they can't help (like being male). They are hated for things they can help, but refuse to do anything about.

When I say 'I hate men' the most that happens is that a man might get his feelings hurt. Whereas when violent men say 'I hate women' we get Elliot Rodger, Ted Bundy, Chris Chan, girls trapped in menstrual huts, female genital mutilation, rape, the sex trade, selective abortion of female fetuses, etc.

When I was venting about how I had to tiptoe around that stalker's feelings, lest he try and come find me because we live in the same city, I was reminded of every single time I've had to push my own feelings aside to preserve a man's ego because he could potentially hurt me if he takes a rejection the wrong way. I was reminded of how every time I have been followed or catcalled while on public transportation or while out for a walk, it has been a man doing the pursuing. So to then hear, 'not all men are like that', it's annoying. Of course I fucking KNOW not all men are that way. But the fact that not all rectangles are squares (not all men are bad), does not negate the fact that all squares are rectangles (the majority of sexual harassment and violent crime is perpetrated by men). It is ONLY men who harass me. Women do not sexually harass me. Women do not catcall me. The good men in the world do not cancel out the fact that the staggering, overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crimes are committed by men. Moreover, the good ones rarely call out the shitty behavior of other men. They just shrug and say they're sorry things are the way they are while doing nothing to change things.

Again, you shouldn't have been attacked. But you were not attacked for just 'being male'. If 'men are trash' or similar sentiments don't apply to you then ignore it and move past it. You are one of the good ones. Help your male peers be better men.

[–]fuck_reddit 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Men get angry at these statements because you act as if it’s rare for men to see rape as wrong. But for every rapist in the US, there are multiple (largely male) police officers that hunt him down, male attorneys that prosecute and defend the accused per the constitution, a 50% male jury that convicts, a male judge that sentences, and an exclusively male force that keeps them imprisoned. For every rapist, there are dozens of men working full time to catch and punish them because all the men that aren’t rapists already know rape is horrible, that’s why we don’t do it.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Things must be different where you're from, because in the majority of rape and sexual harassment cases that happen where I live the rhetoric is 'but he's such a good athlete! This will ruin his shot at college! She was drunk and out alone at night!' and he gets a slap on the wrist as punishment, maybe.

Edit: the Blizzard sexual harassment case is a textbook example of this kind of thing. Blizzard is being sued and the employees who engaged in it were fired, but consider how long this had been going on beforehand, and how bad things had to get for it to make the news. Meaning this kind of thing is encouraged. Will these men serve more than a few years in prison for what they've done? Will the have to pay the victims and their families some form of compensation? Is anything going to come out of this societally besides people saying 'wow that's fucked up' and forgetting about it? I highly doubt it. Same with Bill Cosby. He was sentenced to a decade in prison and got out after 2 years. He admitted to drugging his victims in order to assault them. But he gets out on good behavior or some other technicality. Because fuck the victims I guess.

edit 2: https://www.insider.com/cosby-got-more-time-than-most-accused-of-sexual-assault-2021-7

If you think, as a society, people are frothing at the mouth making sure rapists and abusers get what they deserve, you live on another planet or are severely deluded.

[–]fuck_reddit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I dont know where you’re from, because where I’m from, an accusation is enough to ruin a man’s life and initiate a soviet-style inquiry in which no evidence is necessary, one cannot confront one’s accusers, and no jury is ever consulted.

In my personal life, I have had friends confide in me about sexual harassment and I have supported them unconditionally. However, neither of us are personally involved in the cases you brought up. Therefore, we must take a more conservative and impartial stance and weigh evidence impartially and consider the rights of the accused party to defend themselves. A boy crying “wolf” is not evidence of a wolf.

Also we literally just had a governor resign over sexual assault. His party did try and cover for him, but the Democrat Party and left-leaning media is not society.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ccusation is enough to ruin a man’s life and initiate a soviet-style inquiry in which no evidence is necessary, one cannot confront one’s accusers, and no jury is ever consulted.

I have seen this happen. And it's very unfortunate. What I see more often though, is the other extreme where there is evidence abound and the culprit gets a slap on the wrist. I live in the south, so maybe that's why.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Okay, I can't resist a side tangent: have you seen Promising Young Woman? I think you might love it.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"It's a guy's worst nightmare getting accused like that."

"Can you guess what every woman's worst nightmare is?"

Beautiful. Watching this. Thank you.

[–]Destresse🇨🇵 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Something I have been thinking about:

We should not, ever, mix different struggles together. If a group is labelled an LGB group, then it's an LGB group. For feminism, there are feminist groups.

Lesbians tend to go for L+feminism because, well, that's what benefits us the most, but when I see lesbian groups focus on "sexism+racism+classism+homophobia+...." I just know it is doomed to fail. Lol.

Honestly, the boundaries need to be crystal clear from the beginning. LGB group, then only LGB issues. The rest is dealt with elsewhere. Discord servers, if run by people who aren't that great at managing, will follow the same pattern of diverging.

My advice is to analyse and question very precisely, what group does what. What do they deal with. This is how you'll find where you belong. Women do need feminism and spaces away from men because clumsy words like yours hit the tolerance limit for plenty of us lol, but there's a place for everything. We can't expect every man to be perfectly empathetic, perfectly informed, perfectly tactful. If we decide to share a space with them, we should be prepared for clumsy words. It's not a "safe space" for women. It's a "safe space" for LGB. And if they didn't realise this, then it means it wasn't really an LGB space. Probably more of a lesbian and bi women space. Open to super empathetic, informed, and tactful G or B men lol.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know, I actually agree with this. "Safe space given these specific parameters, or for this specific demographic." And then people could make more specific groups if they liked, e.g. "this one's for lesbian/bisexual women," etc.

That's kind of how this group functions, actually. s/lgbdropthet is a "safe space" for LGB people and censors language on the basis of homophobia, but does not censor language on the basis of, say, religious beliefs. Or sexism, come to think of it. Lol.

edit: typo

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Early on at Reddit I was afraid the group was just lesbian gc instead of lgb, but the mods were good about listening to men’s concerns about anti male rhetoric. I remember bringing it up and the mods asked about it, they were concerned about everyone feeling welcome. There were occasional “all men” comments but pretty infrequent. I like this group because we don’t have to hold a specific political-social mindset.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. And it bothers me when I see "all men" comments, as a woman, because it perpetuates the same logical fallacies that often get used against LGB people. If we condone that kind of behavior towards one demographic then there's no reason why people won't try it with other demographics.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Eh.. I'm a little lost here, so could you explain your case a little better? I got the basics, but I need a little more information to make any conclusions.

Also, yeah I observed some Radical Feminists love to flaunt around double standards: MtFs are all fetishistic men, but FtMs are lost souls who have been raped and abused by men, or are otherwise victims (notice my wording here) of internalized misogyny.

Just disregard the fact that HSTS FtMs love to beat their female partners (Hi Buck!) and the straight ones have been shown to be major fetishists too (yaoi-sick).

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly why I have no general sympathy for transmen. They can be just as narcissistic and crazy as their 'skirt go spinny' counterparts. The straight ones especially piss me off with their homophobia. It's gross. Sympathy is awarded on a case by case basis, and most of them don't deserve an ounce.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just disregard the fact that HSTS FtMs love to beat their female partners (Hi Buck!)

Whoa. Is that a thing? I've never heard of that before.

[–]Rag3 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Just disregard the fact that HSTS FtMs love to beat their female partners (Hi Buck!)

I’ve never heard about this re: Buck 👀

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I’ve never heard about this re: Buck 👀

Don't you know? Buck Angel has some background with this specific subject.

[–]Rag3 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I’ve never heard it come up even when Buck was on contra’s channel befofe contra was "cancelled".

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do you really think the TRA brigade care about violence against women? lmao.

Buck's major 'crime' for them was being truscum, which by itself is baffling.

[–]Rag3 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Do you really think the TRA brigade care about violence against women?

You know…I thought it would have been mentioned until you brought up this very valid point. 😅 They don’t give a damn about violence against women. Duh.

How did you find out about it? When did this happen? Was Buck abusive to his ex who left with the Wachowskis?

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How did you find out about it? When did this happen?

It was after the whole meltdown that happened with ContraPoints.

The TRA brigade managed to dig alot of dirt on her, including a pyramid scheme (yes, really) targeted around the whole transgender craze.

When did this happen? Was Buck abusive to his ex who left with the Wachowskis?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: it looks like even thought she prides herself as a pornstar, she didn't like the idea of her partner's entanglements with the Wachowskis, ao things got pretty dark.

More information:

https://breadtube.tv/essenceofthought/let-s-discuss-contrapoints-open-worship-of-domestic-abuser-buck-angel/

Also, if you wanna have some laughs:

https://leftytgirl.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/when-mansplaining-goes-too-far-buck-angel-on-trans-women/

Yes, a MtF is accusing a FtM of mainsplaining.

It's as tone deaf and hilarous as it sounds.

[–]Rag3 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for the links.

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah you pointed out why I don't like the radfems. Demonizing men. Blaming men for everything. Saying how all of them are perverts, fetishists only waiting for the moment they can rape women. No thank you, radfems.

[–]pacsatonifil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Im am in the same boat.