all 17 comments

[–]HelloMomo 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm not sure how to turn this into something actionable, but here's an anecdote:

In my final year of middle school, the most dysphoric year of my life, I was part of building sets for the school play. It was a small school and volunteering parents did everything. Set building was overseen by a classmate's butchy-but-straight mom. (She's great; she's friends with my mom to this day, and just last year I borrowed her welding helmet for my welding class at the local community college.) Anyways, in middle school she let me use the power tools even more because I was a girl. It seemed like middle school boys who really want to use power tools aren't exactly a demographic who's heavily trusted to use power tools. But a quiet girl who really wants to use power tools? Sure, she seems trustworthy. She's the one you can allow to cut stuff without constantly watching closely.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 12 insightful - 8 fun12 insightful - 7 fun13 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

welding helmet

Misread that as "wedding helmet" at first and was like damn, that's some GNC representation.

It seemed like middle school boys who really want to use power tools aren't exactly a demographic who's heavily trusted to use power tools.

Uh, YEAH. Same with boys who are overexcited about knives. That's super awesome that you had that opportunity and encouragement! Maybe having adults take a moment to encourage girls who seem interested in traditionally masculine activities and vice versa for boys who seem interested in traditionally feminine activities?

[–]HelloMomo 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Same with boys who are overexcited about knives.

I have been really knife-happy as long as I can remember too. Adults always seemed more skeeved out by that one, though.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Haha, well, sometimes it's just fun to cut things.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Not this

I don't know. I think the answer is simple at an individual/family/community level (basically just taking a genuine and supportive interest in whatever hobbies kids pick up) but elusive at the societal level. In general I'm very anti-propaganda, so that biases me. By the way, I hope you'll post this to s/GenderCritical too.

Edit: more thoughts: I think one of the most important things we can do is promote resilience. There's no getting rid of the sense of otherness felt by people who fall outside the center region of a normal distribution, but we can make an effort to return to a "sticks and stones" mentality. And this can be done sensitively, by sympathizing with kids when they're sad and letting them have that process, but also letting them know that they will be okay and that they might even be tougher when all is said and done. I also think it's important to get kids thinking about their ethics; in the case of a GNC kid, encouraging them to question whether their nonconformity actually hurts anybody, for example.

Also I fixed the link - thank you for letting me know!

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Your link was broken but I think this might be related: https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1467981470765490178

basically just taking a genuine and supportive interest in whatever hobbies kids pick up

Yeah that's true! Just being nonjudgmental and supportive of kids exploring their interests, I guess. Within bounds of safety, of course. Yeah I don't know how I'd address it on a societal level either; calling out stereotypes when you see them, I guess, could be one way.

By the way, I hope you'll post this to s/GenderCritical too.

I do not really post on s/GenderCritical, but you're free to copy as much of my post as you want if you'd like to post it over there.

[–]DiveBarDiva 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

When I was little I only played with boy toys. I hated when someone who didn’t know me got me a doll for Christmas. My grandma let me have short hair and wear boys clothes because that’s what she did too. Sometimes people would mistakenly refer to me as my grandpas grandson. I would get so excited. I hated being a girl. I was never dysphoric or anything. I just wished I was a boy. I hated how people acted like I couldn’t do certain things I wanted to do because I was female

My grandma is very butch-like. She helped my grandpa re shingle the roof. she can weld, she can fix her own car, replace a toilet. She’s a gun enthusiast!! She would always tell me about beating up her brothers and the kids at school. Idk why my grandma was beating up so many people but her stories really helped me. I knew to stand up for myself. She always told me that girls can do anything boys can do. Even though I grew up to be quiet feminine I often wonder how I would have felt about myself during that time if she hadn’t raised me.

[–]wendyokoopa1 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your grandma is the type of southern woman I defined above. A real daisy Duke type. She could reshingle the roof, Jack up and replace your tires, clean and maintain your piece then go home and bake up a pie because the fruit just ripened that day and it be a real shame should they waste. As you know first crop of the season tastes the Sweetest.

[–]Mermer 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

God, now my "not like other girls" phase doesn't seem as cringey as thinking I'm actually a man would have been.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly, I think it is more sad than anything that some girls think that they must be a guy just because they act in ways that are less common for girls to act.

[–]szalinskikidproblematic androphile 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I was an extraordinarily big/tall boy in kindergarden and school until puberty. I mean two heads bigger and twice as wide. Very early on, I learned that appearance leads to people having certain expectations of you, and if you don't meet those expectations people are constantly disappointed and even weirded out because there's "something off". And you begin to believe that something's wrong with you, too.

When people heard my soft voice, learned that I liked to have my hair long, saw my timid nature or that I was afraid of the other boys, or witnessed me playing with non-masculine toys instead of beating up smaller kids, they oftentimes voiced their confusion. Adults were actually disappointed that I didn't bully other kids and liked to watch The little Mermaid instead, let that sink in! They let me know that how I looked and how I was acting didn't match up. They pointed out that me playing the soprano flute or holding a little pen and drawing a fairy looked ridiculous. They were angry at me for letting other kids steal my chair or toy, instead of helping me. They treated me differently.

I was never truly "dysphoric" because of that, but I still felt wrong and oftentimes wished to be born a small girl so that expectations and appearance are in sync again, in the opinion of other people. Mostly so that other people would treat me how I wanted/needed to be treated: with respect, with care, with love. If I had to point at one thing that messed with me the most, then it would be the adults' disappointment with me and their (passive) aggressive response to my character. It wasn't my peers asking me if I was a boy or a girl (which was hurtful/stressful, too), it was mostly the adult reaction that profoundly confused me and made me feel insecure. And I think we don't have to overcompensate instead and celebrate everything GNC. Just... let's not point things our kids do out as unusual or special behaviour. Let's not single them out and assign a "GNC identity" to them and treat them differently. Just being calm and fair and supportive of a kid's character is enough I think. No hobby or toy or superficial appearance is gender-locked.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was always small and as a kid I actually took pride in using people's assumptions about me in the reverse. I learned that in any physical activity I was severely underestimated and was able to use this against people because they let their guard down so I was able to outcompete them in a 1v1.

I know some people have the opposite experience as you where they want to be big and strong but aren't. I used it in a different way but I fully recognize that I was a really weird child in my ability to be self aware and that isn't going to work for most children.

I hope that perhaps there's a way to teach self awareness to children that the gender boxes don't matter.

My tendency to hide my mental and physical ability wasn't all positive either. I would let other kids around me fail repeatedly by not helping or revealing ways to do things because I wanted to keep the solution in my back pocket so that i could win later. I wouldn't want to teach that aspect to children.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry people had those expectations of you for so long, that's ridiculous BS. Thanks for sharing your story.

Just... let's not point things our kids do out as unusual or special behaviour. Let's not single them out and assign a "GNC identity" to them and treat them differently.

That's a good observation to make. In a similar vein, I think "GNC" can be a useful term when it's just descriptive, not prescriptive-- not when it's suggesting that a kid should be acting one way or another.

Just being calm and fair and supportive of a kid's character is enough I think. No hobby or toy or superficial appearance is gender-locked.

I think this is probably the best solution in the long run, but I do think that it can be useful to use the phrase "GNC" when discussing why someone is treating a GNC kid differently. For myself when I was growing up, the fact that I seemed to act and look differently was just a facet of reality. Maybe the important part is emphasizing that yes, these "differences" in behavior/dress/mannerisms/whatever may exist, but they really are kind of superficial and not important at the end of the day; at the end of the day, we are all human and have worth, and are unique individuals.

[–]Lizzythelezzo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The vast majority of trans/NB identifying people I've met are autistic, and a fairly high number have mental health issues such as Complex PTSD, BPD and dissociative disorders, so I think any outreach would be best targeted towards those groups. I definitely think providing more support for adolescent/teen autistic girls is huge but not sure how one would implement that effectively.

In a more general sense, I think just being a GNC person without identifying trans is pretty radical in our current climate. Even if you can't speak out openly about your views, if you have a position where you are visible to youth and young people, it can be great to be a positive example and role model. Healing trauma and teaching embodiment skills would probably reduce the number of transitioners as well.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The vast majority of trans/NB identifying people I've met are autistic, and a fairly high number have mental health issues such as Complex PTSD, BPD and dissociative disorders, so I think any outreach would be best targeted towards those groups.

That's a good point. Maybe if there were more widespread quality care for people with psychological disorders then that would end up helping many GNC kids without explicitly targeting GNC kids for interventions.

I definitely think providing more support for adolescent/teen autistic girls is huge but not sure how one would implement that effectively.

Yeah I agree.. and half the problem seems to be diagnosis. I haven't looked at research recently but I've heard it's underdiagnosed in girls.

In a more general sense, I think just being a GNC person without identifying trans is pretty radical in our current climate. Even if you can't speak out openly about your views, if you have a position where you are visible to youth and young people, it can be great to be a positive example and role model.

I appreciate you saying that.. perhaps I should try to consider if there are any opportunities for outreach with GNC kids like that. I know that all or almost all LGB-relevant outreach programs are dominated by the T and Q... but maybe if my country can import some of that sanity from "TERF Isle" then those sorts of opportunities might start to appear.