LifestyleDoes anyone have any suggestions for how to not feel so depressed about all this?

submitted by reluctant_commenter from self.LGBDropTheT

Title. I've been gone off and on, for a while-- starting sometime a couple months ago or so. Originally it was because I was just busy, but then a few weeks ago I started feeling a lot of despair about this whole situation that we're in-- the whole cult-like ideology, the [edit: left a sentence hanging] rampant homophobia, and the fact that's all treated like it's completely normal.

I think what might've pushed me over the edge is, I was chatting with a woman (in a casual context, not a romantic setting) and we hit it off really well, and then I discovered that she identified herself as nonbinary.

I don't know why it hit me so hard; I've had friends transition who I was way closer with emotionally. I also have seen and read far more horrible stuff than just some random woman pretending like she's not a woman (like most people here have). But something about it just struck me with the realization of how isolated I am. This is the situation, from a bird's-eye view:

  1. A random person, who I was getting along fine with, just told me with complete seriousness that an aspect of her existence that I can clearly see before my eyes does not exist. I can literally see before my eyes that she is a woman. This is delusional, this claim, and yet she said it with perfect seriousness. The normal reaction to this would be to turn to the person next to you, exchange glances, then ask, "What the fuck?"

  2. If I turned to someone else next to me and point out how crazy this is, they would not only deny reality, too, but tell me that I am insane and that I am a terrible person for claiming that reality is so. (And I might even lose my job, if evidence of this conversation gets back to my workplace.)

This is fucking crazy. Guys, this is fucking crazy. I know we talk about being down the rabbit hole a lot on this sub, but this really, actually, is fucking insane. People every day in that situation that I was in are being gaslighted, on a massive, wide-scale degree. In the name of politeness. In the name of politeness, we are being demanded to deny the evidence before our very own eyes.

I feel like I'm going crazy. I swear, this shit is horrible for mental health and I think no one has even dared to think far ahead in the future about how awful this society-wide level of gaslighting might be for us. They say all over, it's popular to say now, "Emotional abuse is bad for you! If someone's gaslighting you, that is really bad for your mental health and it deserves to be taken seriously." Oh yeah? Then why are you fine with people lying straight to my face about blatantly obvious details about themselves? At the very least, aren't you worried about THEM and the fact that they're this delusional??? Gaslighting erodes people's boundaries, builds a foundation of self-doubt in one's own mind. Doesn't it bother you that you're instilling in an entire population that level of self-doubt, of confusion, of shame at daring to trust their own sensory faculties?

I hope the woman I was talking to doesn't hate herself the way I did back when I believed that I could transition my way out of being gay. I hope it's a frivolous game for her, the way it is for some of the teenagers. Because there is a massive risk for real, lasting harm being done to all the people that she, and others like her, have gaslighted and to themselves. You can force me to repeat lies to your face, line by line, but that won't take away the pain that reality causes you. And so there I sit, trapped in "polite" conversations, unable to even go to a supportive friend afterwards and vent about how crazy it is because it seems like practically anyone could turn you over to the social media mob for sins of thought.

Does anyone have any tips for how to feel less despair about all this? I used to get a lot of energy and enjoyment out of putting thought into posts and building community on saidit, but I feel like I've been feeling too negative even for that recently. Thanks in advance, I appreciate you guys.

(Inb4 someone tells me to move to a less authoritarian, liberal area. Lol. Currently can't, though, for various reasons, so this is what I'm stuck with.)

edit: typos

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[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

-Realize that in a culture of fear and censorship you don't actually know how isolated you are. I don't say this to dismiss the isolation you feel; I feel it sometimes too. But what is more likely? That everyone you know believes men can be women, or that people fear the repercussions of speaking out? Related to that, I don't know if you're following the Lia Thomas situation but it seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back regarding men in women's sports. And that's only because someone had the courage to protest, inspiring many others to do the same. Courage begets courage.

-Familiarize yourself with other forums that are critical of trans dogma. I love saidit, but if we lost it, even if only to infiltration, we'd need a new oasis of sanity. I really believe in cultivating decentralization for exactly this reason. Additionally, learn to recognize the common shill tactics that bad actors use to divide communities and drive users away from forums. (This is what I believe happened to s/Lesbians btw)

-Check out James Lindsay's New Discourses podcast (as well as the book he co-authored with the amazing Helen Pluckrose, Cynical Theories). He covers the history and philosophy that got us to where we are today, and for me, just having an understanding of that is comforting.

-Make friends with older people. Reach out to/reconnect with your favorite aunts/uncles/teachers if possible. If you need mental health counseling, seek out older therapists. They will help tether you to reality.

-Watch LGB movies/shows that ignore the trans. There's actually tons of it. Letterboxd is a good resource.

-At the risk of veering off topic, I'll close by saying that we are in a crisis that encompasses much more than the gender insanity. That's some shit luck for us but it also gives us the opportunity to act heroically in whatever ways we can. Every crisis produces heroes. Take pride in that.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Thanks for all your suggestions. I really appreciate it.

Realize that in a culture of fear and censorship you don't actually know how isolated you are. I don't say this to dismiss the isolation you feel; I feel it sometimes too. But what is more likely? That everyone you know believes men can be women, or that people fear the repercussions of speaking out? Related to that, I don't know if you're following the Lia Thomas situation but it seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back regarding men in women's sports. And that's only because someone had the courage to protest, inspiring many others to do the same. Courage begets courage.

You're absolutely right. In a similar vein, I just saw Jules's post from a few days ago. I have not been following at all, no. I'll take a look.

Additionally, learn to recognize the common shill tactics that bad actors use to divide communities and drive users away from forums. (This is what I believe happened to s/Lesbians btw)

Great resources, thanks! Interesting... I didn't realize there might be anything that severe going on. What on earth could people possibly want from such a tiny community? But I guess I underestimate the drive of sheer narcissism. Maybe I'll go back and read through some of the old posts and try to identify some of these patterns... that sounds like a good exercise. (You could even suggest it to the other people on that sub, if they don't hate gay people too much to try it, lol.)

If you need mental health counseling, seek out older therapists. They will help tether you to reality.

I'm lucky to have finally found a solid therapist, but actually one of the ones I tried before, an older woman, was so deep into the trans doctrine that she ran workshops aimed at celebrating "trans children." I didn't realize until long after I left working with her that that was a red flag. (She had other concerning behaviors as a therapist that were unrelated to anything about the transgender movement.)

Watch LGB movies/shows that ignore the trans. There's actually tons of it. Letterboxd is a good resource.

I'll take a look, thanks. Do you have any particular recommendations? I liked Imagine Me & You, but I don't know how many movies there are like that. I would really like to avoid movies that have (non-trans) homophobic stereotypes in them.

-At the risk of veering off topic, I'll close by saying that we are in a crisis that encompasses much more than the gender insanity. That's some shit luck for us but it also gives us the opportunity to act heroically in whatever ways we can. Every crisis produces heroes. Take pride in that.

I appreciate your sense of perspective and scale. :) Yes, that's true, it does seem like these patterns common to transgender ideology keep popping up elsewhere in many other contexts and topics, too. Funny... now that's a revival of the real meaning of the word "pride," the way you're using it. When the word's been so otherwise hijacked.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I'm glad you were eventually able to find a competent therapist. It's baffling to me when older people fall for this stupidity but your experience is an unfortunate reminder that it does happen.

Maybe I'll go back and read through some of the old posts and try to identify some of these patterns... that sounds like a good exercise.

You might start with the mod log. I've been making my way through the queue as time allows and have seen a lot of obvious shit-stirring. The fact that there even is a year-old queue makes me think that the mods just straight up abandoned the place once ovarit came along, making it easy for trolls to slide in.

You could even suggest it to the other people on that sub, if they don't hate gay people too much to try it, lol.

Interesting idea! I might. Please also feel free to do so yourself if you like and if I don't get around to it in a timely manner.

Do you have any particular recommendations? I liked Imagine Me & You, but I don't know how many movies there are like that.

Okay, based on that I can recommend Kyss Mig (might also be under the English title With Every Heartbeat), Saving Face and Big Eden. That last one is one of the most underrated and understated love stories I've ever seen.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Way late to respond to this, sorry lol.

The fact that there even is a year-old queue makes me think that the mods just straight up abandoned the place once ovarit came along, making it easy for trolls to slide in.

That was my impression, back when I was active there. The mod (there was only one for a while) would go for weeks without doing anything on the sub or removing any comments. To be fair, I haven't done anything with the sub I mod in like a month, lol... so I get it, stuff happens, people get busy. But yeah, I think that a lot of bad-faith posts were allowed to flourish that should've been curtailed.

There were a couple topics especially that usually led to fights that kept being brought up, over and over again:

  1. "bisexuals suck"
  2. "being a gold star lesbian is amazing / gold stars are victims"
  3. "let's talk about comphet"

I interacted with several users on the sub who proudly self-identified as "political lesbians," i.e. probably not actually lesbians, but radical feminists who held homophobic and sexist beliefs. But I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more egregious accounts were actually run by TRAs.

Okay, based on that I can recommend Kyss Mig (might also be under the English title With Every Heartbeat), Saving Face and Big Eden. That last one is one of the most underrated and understated love stories I've ever seen.

Thank you so much for the recommendations!! Will take a look :)

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There were a couple topics especially that usually led to fights that kept being brought up, over and over again:

  1. "bisexuals suck"
  2. "being a gold star lesbian is amazing / gold stars are victims"
  3. "let's talk about comphet"

I noticed this too (albeit in retrospect since I only started using saidit regularly 6-8 months ago), and I'm noticing the exact same thing on ovarit, so I suspect that the shills have migrated over there. None of these topics fall outside the believable realm of occasional discussion but the fact that it's a repetitive pattern (and one that many users clearly dislike) makes me think it's inorganic. And I think the point is to drive users away from forums.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

so I suspect that the shills have migrated over there. None of these topics fall outside the believable realm of occasional discussion

For mentally healthy people, that is. It seems to me like at least a subset of radical feminists have an unhealthy fixation on and hatred of bisexual women... I mean, it's consistent with the belief system. "Women should only date women because men are terrible"-- and bisexual women, who actually have a choice between dating men and women, get maligned for dating men and they're seen as immoral and terrible. Jo Bartosch, a bisexual radical feminist, wrote an article about biphobia among radical feminists. Those "lesbian radical feminists" she's talking about aren't lesbian... they're political lesbians. AKA, women who aren't actually homosexual and are speaking over actual lesbians.

edit: But perhaps there are a drove of trolls following the radfems around. I wouldn't be surprised, given the vitriolic, hateful bent of the "AgainstHateSubreddits" community. Such an ironic name.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think it's a drove of trolls. I think it's one person with tons of alts who strategically inflames the naturally existing pressure points in a group in the hopes of--my best guess--driving people away from that group. Tensions and differing opinions do exist in heterogeneous communities such as this one, and even among lesbians whose common denominator isn't a shared ideology after all, but just a bio-social reality. Most people--sane people--who find themselves in philosophically diverse spaces know that in order to maintain a pleasant and collaborative atmosphere it's best to highlight those tensions rarely, if ever, and with a light touch. So that's one reason why a specific type of "grievance" post raises red flags for me. The other reason is that this is a known pattern of ((that one user)); it doesn't require much stretch of the imagination to think that this subsaidit and perhaps even this site aren't the only places he's trolled.

So that's my $.02. I won't keep trying to convince you, though, because your points are valid as well and all either of us can do is speculate anyway.

"Women should only date women because men are terrible"

Genuinely curious, do they actually say this? I mean, you're right, that is consistent with some radfems' beliefs, but I always thought the bisexual hatred came more from a place of insecurity (about being left for a man) or jealousy (resenting the fact that bisexuals have more options, one of which is more socially acceptable).

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Political lesbianism" is another one they love to bring up. I've gone my entire life not only never having met a "political lesbian", but also never having even heard the idea discussed in lesbian circles...until saidit. Could be that it's back en vogue, or could be that a very determined and pathetic user with countless alts wants to drive a wedge between lesbians and bisexual women.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I saw a couple on the old TL subreddit as well, and I've seen several on both saidit and ovarit. I've actually met one person like that IRL, was pretty surreal to hear the talking points repeated by someone I actually know! But she got bored of it and dropped the act after like a year or two. She was very mentally ill, and seemed to have a lot of identity issues. Wonder what she's up to now...

[–]emptiedriver 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Courage begets courage.

I do think this is the key thing. There are probably more people who don't believe this crap than who do, but the ones who do are more fervent. They have scared a portion of those who disagree from speaking up, and then another percentage of people think it's a side issue that doesn't matter much. It's sort of a scale from those who feel frustrated by a fear of social ostracism to those who are just trying to avoid conflict - who cares if it's true, let's not fight over it, kinda thing.

So what matters now is to make it clear that both a) it is important and does have serious consequences especially for women's and LGB rights, as well as many individuals' health and well-being; and b) there are plenty of people who agree on the basic facts at hand here, and we should all be speaking up more often in more places so that it's more evident to those nearby that it's a common, established, politically variable, simply fundamental position to hold. Anyone can say "there are two sexes" and "men cannot be women" - we've got to remind people those are ordinary things to be stating, and that we are not taking the nonsense seriously, by being clear about it whenever there's a chance.

[–]lunarstrain 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Realize that in a culture of fear and censorship you don't actually know how isolated you are. I don't say this to dismiss the isolation you feel; I feel it sometimes too. But what is more likely? That everyone you know believes men can be women, or that people fear the repercussions of speaking out?

Seriously. I had a conversation with the repairman the other day when the topic came up pretty naturally (they ask you to put if you're male or female when you hire one from their company) and he was completely disillusioned, too. He does what he has to do not to lose his job.

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Life was easier when transsexualism was a very niche rare disorder which you were diagnosed with, not what you identified with... and even then these people acknowledged what sex they were born as and this is why they transitioned in the first place.

The current trend simply appropriated this niche disorder and turned it into weird spiritual, philosophy system which you have to take as a fact or you will be shunned. Insane.

[–]justagaydude123 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Our foremothers and forefathers dealt with worse. We will overcome.

[–]Hannibalboy93 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Remember that these non binary clowns are a very very small percent of the population, surround yourself with gender critical lesbians and gay men, moderate liberals/moderate conservatives, more and more people are waking up to the bullshit. This non binary trend will come to an end, and then their will be a new crazy trend.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This non binary trend will come to an end, and then their will be a new crazy trend.

Now that's the truth. Thanks for your bracing words, I appreciate it.

[–]Hannibalboy93 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes of course :) hang in there

[–]censorshipment 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Socially distance yourself from strangers... lol

Two months ago, I started working and avoid 99% of the people I work with because I don't want to hear any nonsense. I act like I don't speak English since a lot of non-Americans work there.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just know you are not alone. There are more and more gender critical people popping up everywhere.

On youtube there is a bunch of them, Kellie-Jay Keen (Posie Parker), Graham Linehan has the mess we're in every wednesday, King critical for reactions to TRA vids. Hearing them talk sanity helps feeling less alone.

Twitter is a shithole, but there has been a growing number of gender critical people of all walks of life and its quite refreshing to see thousands of people talk about how nuts this all is.

There is Ovarit which is more for women.

It feels isolating but reaching out will help you get to know other people like us. I met with a group of people irl i talked to on twitter about this. It did me so much good.

[–]upcomingDaddygay af 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Embrace the 🤡🌎, pretend you've entered a bizarro earth timeline where nothing makes sense and you need to do all you can to cope.

[–]Lizzythelezzo 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've found it helps to talk to other Radfem/GC people, or at least people who are willing to question TRA dogma and consider other perspectives. Pretty much all my close friends are open to discussing it and tend to agree with a lot of what I say. Politically conservative people are often quite open minded to gendercritical ideas, though they are often coming from a more religious point of view. The only ones I don't really talk to much about it are those who identify as trans, or who have trans partners and have very strong feelings about it (most of those are not close friends, though).

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Does anyone have any tips for how to feel less despair about all this?

  • First and foremost-- take care of yourself! Emotionally and physically. Please take time to do the things you enjoy, that make you feel good. Look for ways to give yourself comfort and relaxation. Don't neglect your health; try to get some regular exercise (in a form that feels invigorating, not punitive) and decent sleep. All can help offset this trans-induced stress. Overall, treat yourself the way you would someone you cared about who's going through a difficult time: with compassion and kindness.
  • Don't be afraid to take a break from this issue if you need to. You can drop it altogether for a while, or just cut back on how much time/attention you give it. You may need some R&R-- consider whether a vacation (or staycation) from trans is due, and what that would look like for you.
  • Hone your arguments against transology in private, and/or among friends. Work on different ways to approach it, analogies/metaphors, etc., till you've got something airtight and easily-understood. This enables you to be productive, and know that you're doing something about the issue, without throwing yourself on a grenade, you know? Keep your powder dry, as they say; when there's an opening, you'll be ready.
  • Write to policymakers about the issue, if you're comfortable doing so. It may convince them (or, if they already know that transology is a pernicious lie, give them the cover they need to oppose it), and even if it doesn't, taking constructive action can make you feel stronger and more hopeful.
  • Cultivate your capacity for humor! Yeah, I know that, when things are this dispiriting, it's hard to think in those terms... but sometimes being able to laugh at (and I most DEFINITELY don't mean laugh WITH!) them can keep you going. Let scathing wit, withering sarcasm, and ridicule in general be your friends! Mock the ever-lovin' shit outta these fuckers. And look forward to the day when they're revealed to the world as the joke that they always were :)

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just now reading your comment, but I just wanted to say, I really appreciate you taking the time to write all this out. Certainly as relevant as it was when I made this post a few weeks ago, lol. I've been dealing with a ton of stress from work and it's really taken a toll on me, on top of transgender homophobia. I'll keep your points in mind, especially the first two. :) Hope you're doing well, always appreciate reading your comments.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm sorry to hear that you have not only trans-induced stress, but also work-induced stress, to contend with... yet glad to hear that my suggestions might help alleviate it, at least a little.

Hope you're doing well, always appreciate reading your comments.

I'm working on a lot of personal stuff these days; it's not easy, by any means, but I feel like-- for the first time ever-- I'm actually making progress. Which is more than I ever dared hope for, honestly. And, believe it or not, this sub (beginning with its Reddit incarnation-- R.I.P.) has been instrumental in that process. As have the people I've met here... people like you :)

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks, I appreciate it. Hoping work things, at least, will lighten up soon.

I'm working on a lot of personal stuff these days; it's not easy, by any means, but I feel like-- for the first time ever-- I'm actually making progress.

That is really great!! I'm proud of you :) it's always amazing to notice that you actually have made progress. I'm really glad this sub has helped you. It's definitely helped me, too... I probably would've medically transitioned without it (I was lucky enough to happen on a couple posts from the old reddit lgbdropthet, while I was contemplating transitioning).

As have the people I've met here... people like you :)

Aw, thanks Pensee <3 I'm really, really glad that I've helped you at all. :) And I feel the same way about the people here. People here have blown my mind with how kind and thoughtful they are. That's part of why I'm trying to get myself to log on more often again... I've noticed that it seems to improve my mood.