Men's IssuesMasculine Gay & Bi Men Gaslighting Feminine Gay Men to believe they are Trans?

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.LGBDropTheT

This is something that I have been thinking more about in recent months when I recently made a vent-type post where I was just talking about how my dating life was going as a feminine gay man and wanting to connect with some other feminine gay men about it as well as scouring other various gay subreddits and reading threads that were started by feminine gay men who either were doing vent-type posts about their own dating struggles as feminine gay men or even questioning whether they were "actually men" or transgender.

Going back to my own post, I was getting so many comments that the reason why my dating is difficult is because I "look trans", that I 'dress trans" which is in relation to me looking very feminine and nonconforming since I don't make myself look masculine. Obviously I think it's bullshit because it doesn't matter how I dress, I'm still a guy and I'm not trying to be anything other than myself. These kinda comments made me reflect on some of my old threads I started on thos threads through the years and remembering how I would have people saying that I come off "trans" or that I should even just "go trans" nevermind the fact that I was and still am upfront that I don't believe in the ideology and that I'm not shy of correcting people if they call me by female pronouns.

So with that in mind, when I was looking at other threads written by other various feminine gay men and taking a look at the comments, I would see that they too would be getting these kinds of comments of other gay men saying that these feminine men were or "might be" "trans" and knowing what I do now, knowing that it doesn't matter how a man dresses or acts, it doesn't make him a woman because women are not some sort of costume or a feeling in your head, that women are a state of sex (female) and that's all it is, I was hoping that these feminine men would see through this and some do but others, not so much...

This got me to thinking that there are some more masculine/masculine leaning gay men who try to gaslight feminine gay men into believing that we aren't men. On the other end, I'd be getting comments like that from some Bisexual men who were really just closet-cases with internalized homophobia who would try to convince me that I'm really a woman because of how I looked and my personality. I remember some of the comments I received and I doubled down on my not believing in gender ideology, some of these men would try to push back hard, saying that I'm in denial and other rhetoric of that nature and I feel that if I wasn't as head strong and self-assured as I am now, I could be tricked into believing it. And to be honest, I used to have subtle beliefs of thinking I wasn't a man many years ago because of how ostracized I'd get from other men and not understanding at the time that women are not a personality or a costume you can just put on.

In the gay men's scene, there was always this sort of contention that a lot of masculine gay men have towards feminine gay men because the mainstream media tended to paint this narrative that all gay men are feminine by only having feminine and/or flamboyant gay men in media. This makes some masculine gay men feel that feminine gay men a bad name and I can't help but feel that some of these more masculine gay men use the trans ideology to try to erase feminine gay men in belief that by doing this, the mainstream media and by extension society, will stop stereotyping all gay men as being effeminate and that any feminine gay man, especially those that dress in feminine styles are not men at all.

I'm just wondering if there is any sliver of truth to this theory because this has been on my mind for a good few weeks now.

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[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well I don't know how common it is within the community but personally I did develop pretty much an AGP fetish partially because I despised the part of me attracted to men. So imagining myself as a woman was a way to mollify it because for some reason I thought it was more straight lol. There probably are some bisexual guys that deal with it on the basis that feminine men aren't "real men" so they aren't truly gay for liking them. I mean it's a common joke but for some people they honestly feel that way. If you can frame your attraction to men with a hetro context it makes it feel less bad. The issue with this it gets back to attraction is just about roles and superficial things rather than the very real biological reality that as of now we can't change.

We are just as a result of this obsession with trans issues going ironically back to a more conservative perception of gender roles. That interests, dress or anything else reflects the biological sex you are is as ridiculous today as it was then. The issue is the people who were saying ah it's okay to be GNC have no gone back and said if you are GNC you might be trans. As for openly gay men it might just be an issue of needing to again parrot similar ideas that are going around. That gender roles not birth sex determine what you are. I don't think it's out of some large hatred for effeminate men but then again I wouldn't know how others feel. Most of the time I just see virtue singling and that is it.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There probably are some bisexual guys that deal with it on the basis that feminine men aren't "real men" so they aren't truly gay for liking them. I mean it's a common joke but for some people they honestly feel that way

Oh trust me, there are, I've had the displeasure of dealing with them lol.

The issue with this it gets back to attraction is just about roles and superficial things rather than the very real biological reality that as of now we can't change.

Exactly and that's why I refuse to play into their delusional view of attraction when it comes to this.

The issue is the people who were saying ah it's okay to be GNC have no gone back and said if you are GNC you might be trans.

Right! I have noticed this as well and I especially see this happen in gay forum threads with younger men who question if they're really men when they're interested in feminine things and some of the replies either tell them that might be trans or that they are trans and that is what is fucked up about it and why I try to talk with these guys when I can and try to explain that it's just stereotypes and doesn't mean anything.

You're probably right that most gay men who try to gaslight feminine gay men with this gender crap is that they're doing it to virtue signal.

[–]jim_steak 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think it's definitely possible that gay men push other gay men to transition, I don't know how common it is though. There are a lot of gay men who buy into gender ideology, where the dominant narrative is that being trans is like being gay and that by denying it you're harming yourself. Some of those people might be well meaning.

I think there's also a recognition in liberal spaces that you'll never get in trouble for pushing transness or suggesting someone may be trans, which leads to people being more comfortable making that suggestion than they really should be.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hm you're probably right. Another reaosn though why I feel some masculine gay men may do this to men like me is because they don't want to feel guilty for not preferring feminine gay men. The whole "Masc vs Fem" argument is a tale as old as time in the gay sphere and there's no denying that majority gay men tend to prefer mascuuline men and I feel like a portion of these men don't want to feel guilt for not being attracted to feminine gay men so they use the whole "I'm not attracted to feminine men because I like men (masculinity)". So they try to delude themselves into thinking they don't have internalized homophobia by acting like we feminine men are not men at all so of course they wouldn't be attracted to us which is foolish and silly because they don't have to be attracted to us.

I think there's also a recognition in liberal spaces that you'll never get in trouble for pushing transness or suggesting someone may be trans, which leads to people being more comfortable making that suggestion than they really should be.

This is a good point. It's depressing...

[–]dilsencySame-sex community 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would try not to internalize that. Some men are going to dismiss you for being feminine, whether their justification is that they don't like male femininity, or that they try to "explain you away" with calling you trans, it's the same thing in the end.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh for sure, I've been resilient to this stuff for years now and I know not to internalize it because that's part of the problem with the whole HSTS thing where those feminine men clearly internalized the negativeness directed at feminine gay men.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can't help but feel that some of these more masculine gay men use the trans ideology to try to erase feminine gay men in belief that by doing this, the mainstream media and by extension society, will stop stereotyping all gay men as being effeminate and that any feminine gay man, especially those that dress in feminine styles are not men at all.

If this is their strategy, then those gay men will fail. People who think that all gay men are effeminate will either accuse masculine gay men of "pretending to be gay" or "pretending to be masculine". Homophobic people will find ways to belittle gay men and treat gay men as women, no matter how masculine those gay men are. A gay man can be the most masculine person on the planet, and a homophobe will still call him "miss". And a well meaning liberal who buys into stereotypes will still accuse that gay man of "faking being gay" or "overcompensating". Masculine gay men throwing effeminate gay men under the bus will only serve to validate homophobic people.

The reason why some masculine gay and bi men think that all super effeminate men are "secretly trans" is because those gay men were brainwashed by woke transgender ideology. They acknowledge that feminine gay men exist, but they believe that there is a threshold somewhere which if you cross then you are trans as far as they are concerned. And because these men have been brainwashed into affirming "transgender" people, they are afraid they will come off as transphobic" if they don’t pretend you are the opposite sex. In some cases, they will even "affirm" you even if you assert that you are in fact a man. They convince themselves you are an egg. Which is why the only solution is to stop acknowledging transgenderism completely. Keep standing up for yourself.

EDIT: I should also add that a lot of feminine gay men buy into woke transgender ideology as well. They see themselves as men because "they’re not feminine enough", but if you get too feminine they will think you are trans. Or they will try to convince you that you are trans if you have traits of autism, even if you are masculine. If you are a gay man who is extremely feminine in appearance or personality, you need to be more assertive, and probably avoid hanging around certain types of people. And only date bisexual or gay men who are out of the closet.

[–]JohnWhyGay Man 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I don't know if this is what you mean, but I feel like some of the "straight" men on apps do this to feel better about going on grindr to hook up with "trans" and "fems". It makes them feel better the more they can convince themselves that the other man is more of a woman, and that's even easier if they can get the other person to believe it/play along too...

Maybe masc gay men do this because there's a stigma that femme gays make us look bad and they're trying to push them out? But I don't know how pushing them toward trans would help, since we're pretty much stuck under the LGBT umbrella in the public view anyway and a lot of the alphabet crowd make us look plenty bad by association anyway... I haven't really noticed gay men doing this, though.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right the "straight" (aka closet case bisexuals and gays) are the ones who try to push us into believing we're not men, I've gotten a few times from these kinds of guys enough to see this is really a thing.

And yeah the masculine gay men who do this do it because they think feminine guys make gay men look bad so they try to erase us out in a foolish attempt to believe that if we go "trans", it'll make gay men look "normal" but what they don't understand is that ultimately it doesn't matter because homophobic people will still think they are abnormal because they are attracted to other men.

[–]censorshipment 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think there's some confusion with this due to people not articulating themselves well. Men may just want you to play the role of a stereotypical/traditional "cis" woman... not to actually identify as a "trans" woman.

I've come across this as a masculine/gnc lesbian. Feminine women (typically bisexual women, not lesbians) want me to play the role of a stereotypical/traditional "cis" man. I'm expected to take the trash out, clean the vehicle, (if they have sons) teach boys how to be boys, etc. For example: A bi ex asked me to teach her 2 year old son how to piss while standing because she didn't want him to "pee like a girl" by sitting on the toilet. She had 3 brothers who could've taught him that. I had to demonstrate with my dildo lol

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Men may just want you to play the role of a stereotypical/traditional "cis" woman... not to actually identify as a "trans" woman.

Believe me, that's not what some of these bisexual guys mean. The ones who have internalized homophobia but are attracted to feminine men will try to "other" men like me and try to make it out like we're not men which justifies in their puzzled mind that it's "not gay". The ones who don't have internalized homophobia? Yeah they fit what you're talking about and they don't "other" men like myself.

The story about your ex, that's definitely kinda weird, I'm not gonna lie lol