HomophobiaSelf-identified "political lesbian" Julie Bindel tried to convince straight women at the JKR lunch that they aren't straight

submitted by reluctant_commenter from self.LGBDropTheT

This woman represents radical feminists, and she also claims to represent lesbians. Even if it was "just a joke," and even though JKR wasn't bothered by it, that doesn't make it an okay thing to do. By trying to pressure straight women to identify as lesbian, she is perpetuating an old conservative homophobic stereotype-- and also just being an all-around asshole. And, what's more, she is just roleplaying being a lesbian... just like the transwomen on r/actuallesbians. To Julie Bindel, homosexuality is a lifestyle.

Guys, we need better representation for our movement than this. "Political lesbians" are homophobic (and biphobic, too!) as hell, and they're actually getting media attention and support. How can we make it more clear that the LGB Drop the T movement is not represented by "political lesbians"? If they successfully convince the general public that they represent LGB people, then we're gonna stay at the same place we're currently at: homosexuality and bisexuality being erased, misunderstood and shamed.

Description from the article:

Me and JK think if you don’t fancy Keanu you definitely are a lesbian. Bindel, as ever, was goading us, saying we were not as heterosexual as we think. JK, she reckons, is about 66 per cent straight. She seems to believe that she has some sort of lesbian Geiger counter.

By the way, Bindel, "66% straight" does not exist. Someone who likes both sexes is called bisexual. So if you were right, that would make JKR one of those bisexual women you love to insult and shame.

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[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Julie Bindell is one of those warriors like Sheila Jeffries that I admire for their convictions and agree to disagree with when it comes to views we do not share. I can say the same thing of many people out there, including some prominent trans folk. We don’t have to share every opinion to share goals.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

How can we make it more clear that the LGB Drop the T movement is not represented by "political lesbians"? If they successfully convince the general public that they represent LGB people, then we're gonna stay at the same place we're currently at: homosexuality and bisexuality being erased, misunderstood and shamed

Eh.. you really can't. Any sort of group you are apart of is going to have personal undesirables you don't want to be affiliated with. True of everything from something as serious as political movements down to hobby groups.

Lots of women get called TERFS that just have concerns around TRAs and what they are pushing. Still a small subset of those actually do fit the RF aspect of that. Personally my opinions on third/fourth wave/modern/radical feminists vary from disagreements to straight up disgust but plenty of people may feel the same way about someone like me who is more center right but I guess apart of the LGB community whatever that is. Plenty think Lesbian women should just stand alone and don't want to be associated with men at all. They have the right to that opinion.

We have issues with trans right activists and rad fems are obviously going to have issues with trans right activists so no matter how much you want to say I don't want to be associated with them people who don't like you will. You might as well not care. I mean rad fems even have their own varied beliefs or don't want to claim women who believe in "political lesbianism" too so yeah this applies to everything.

Ultimately people who wish to actually understand our concerns will listen those that don't will defame. Regardless going to be honest no one gives a shit about Julie Bindel and the very nature of some separatist rad fem ideologies especially will ensure that it will always be fringe. They aren't going to influence how the public perceives gay, bi or lesbian people. TRAs though do have resources/support to impact how people see us as they are public, well backed and are now the voices for mainstream LGBT groups.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Eh.. you really can't. Any sort of group you are apart of is going to have personal undesirables you don't want to be affiliated with. True of everything from something as serious as political movements down to hobby groups.

Hmm, that's a good observation. It is a kind of universal concern with any group. I think it's still one worth trying to mitigate.

We have issues with trans right activists and rad fems are obviously going to have issues with trans right activists so no matter how much you want to say I don't want to be associated with them people who don't like you will. You might as well not care.

But it's not just a question of association, it's a question of representation: who's going to be speaking for our community at a local, national, international level? In the same way that I wouldn't want a homophobic "ex-gay" person representing me, I wouldn't want a homophobic "political lesbian" representing me, either.

I mean rad fems even have their own varied beliefs or don't want to claim women who believe in "political lesbianism" too so yeah this applies to everything.

Yeah, that's why I am trying to specify that "political lesbians" are the problem. I get that not all radfems believe in it.

They aren't going to influence how the public perceives gay, bi or lesbian people.

They already have, though-- at least for lesbians. People talk about "lesbian history" and like 9/10 times when I go look up what they're referencing, they're actually referring to political lesbians, not actual lesbians. It is a well-known phenomenon: people don't take female same-sex attraction seriously. Many people don't even believe that female homosexuality exists. So in that way, these "political lesbians" already have, in fact, shifted the public opinion of female homosexuality for the worse (by spreading misinformation about it, and claiming that it's a "lifestyle").

TRAs though do have resources/support to impact how people see us as they are public, well backed and are now the voices for mainstream LGBT groups.

Yup, not disagreeing with you there.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean again what would you have us do beyond say I don't agree with you? Representation sure is an issue in mainstream organizations but you have to have a large amount of people taking over those groups internally that share your views. Ultimately that is TRAs who have power not us nor any rad fems.

Again the very nature of the people who actually embrace political lesbianism are going to be incredibly politically niche. For a lot of women they have at least one male figure they do like or empathize with. Separatism feminism which is where political lesbianism tends to be connected to is hard to attract for that reason alone. Other forms of tribalism is easier to encourage as you can isolate pretty easily entirely from different races, political groups whatever. Most people will have been raised at one point with someone of a different sex and the vast majority of people their relationships with the opposite sex aren't going to be largely negative. I mean there probably are some women who still choose that despite not having negative relationships with men for whatever reason but again it's going to always be a very niche idea because why separate yourself entirely from some people you have liked in your life?

Younger generations pretty much perceive them to be old wine aunts they hardly have that much influence beyond their demographic. That is different from TRAs who do have the ear of the youth and actual money/political influence. You will get some people that again use political lesbians as props as again to invalidate homosexuality but again the people who are going to resort to that argument have a set agenda from the very get go. They are just looking for validating examples not true knowledge. No point to be concerned about it.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean again what would you have us do beyond say I don't agree with you?

That's fine, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I appreciate hearing differing perspectives, they often change my thinking even if I still disagree on the main points.

I mean there probably are some women who still choose that despite not having negative relationships with men for whatever reason but again it's going to always be a very niche idea because why separate yourself entirely from some people you have liked in your life?

While "political lesbians" are a niche demographic, the idea that "female homosexuality doesn't exist" is not niche, it's quite mainstream; and they are spreading that idea and reinforcing its popularity.

Younger generations pretty much perceive them to be old wine aunts they hardly have that much influence beyond their demographic.

True, and at the same time-- wine aunts aren't the only people who believe that female homosexuality... or homosexuality at all... doesn't exist.

Sounds like we will have to agree to disagree.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Eh.. you really can't. Any sort of group you are apart of is going to have personal undesirables you don't want to be affiliated with.

If we can't then we cant drop the q, which is just as dangerous to lgb. Or even the T.

We kicked nambla out, I think its not wrong to ask how people who imply sexuality is a choice are going to help us. That interviewer asked posie a trip up question about sexuality and choice and she ended up giving a colluded answer because she apparently she listens to the political lesbian crowd. Normies watching tv just need to hear yes or no, not a dissertation on feminism and political choices,etc

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well sure but lots of homophobes still will bring it up as saying hey look this is their true nature which is my point. I am just saying what else can you do but say "you aren't affiliated with me" lol. You can only express what you believe and critique what you don't. Normies on TV or online just need a variety of voices. So yeah skeptics from the LGB community should try to make their voices heard on why they are concerned but that is all you can do.

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Women like her are the reason why I've been hearing my mother telling me that only gay men are born gay but gay woman is gay by choice. So wrong.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Slightly off-topic here, but as a febfem (my reasons for it are predominately apolitical tho), I wonder what Julie would have to say about the distinction between Febfems (bisexual women who renounce men) and Political Lesbianism, and if we would be included as "lesbians" by her definition of what it means to be a lesbian.

I'm not too familiar with her work so if she's already discussed this LMK

[–]LilianH 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Julie Bindel isn't a "political lesbian" as you define it.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

She is on record saying that she is a political lesbian and believes in political lesbianism. Why do you think she is not one?

[–]LilianH 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

She came out at age 15 and has only been with women. I believe actions speak louder than words.

Also she defines "political lesbian" differently than most people do.

https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1188786800883617792

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I believe actions speak louder than words.

Your application of that truism in this context is misleading. It is entirely possible for Bindel to be a bisexual woman who mistakenly claims herself to be lesbian. A bisexual person who chooses to only date one sex is still bisexual; that doesn't erase their bisexuality.

Furthermore, as jay-day already pointed out, she emphasizes that she believes that she chose to date women and doesn't believe in homosexuality. Who else can "choose" which sex to date but a bisexual?

Also she defines "political lesbian" differently than most people do.

She defines it exactly in the way that is typical of the homophobic radical feminist "political lesbian" concept... She says:

It ["political lesbianism"] is acknowledging the reality of compulsory heterosexuality, and being proud to reject heterosexuality in favour of lesbianism

She believes that homosexuality is a choice (and a lifestyle, as I already noted in my post). "Compulsory heterosexuality" is the idea that straight women are pressured to be straight because of societal influences and can choose otherwise if they'd like. I'm literally parroting her own words back; not sure how else I could explain it to you.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm still so confused about her actual sexuality and wondering if she even knows it herself. She talks like some religious right wingers about choice(but just in the opposite fashion), jokes about putting males in concentration camps, and is still promoted by GC platforms despite that. I'm just avoiding reading her stuff in general because she's not remotely a unifying and clarifying agent in this misinformation war between TRAs and GC. The adoption of extremist(and oftentimes contradictory) ideologies is polluting her thinking processes and negatively affecting public discourse. In other words, I think she's a loon- a fanatic who wouldn't have been given the time of day during saner periods, but of course is the goto PR guru now..

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The adoption of extremist(and oftentimes contradictory) ideologies is polluting her thinking processes and negatively affecting public discourse. In other words, I think she's a loon- a fanatic who wouldn't have been given the time of day during saner periods, but of course is the goto PR guru now..

Honestly, I think it might be the other way around-- she's been polluting public discourse with her thinking processes. It seems like she's been putting this type of content out into the world for many years now. But with no self-reflection whatsoever.

I'm still so confused about her actual sexuality and wondering if she even knows it herself.

Acknowledgment of one's biological reality requires acknowledging the basic facts of biological reality. And one of those basic facts is the distinction between bisexuality and monosexuality. Julie Bindel seems allergic to using accurate labels. All the descriptions of herself seem to indicate she's bisexual, yet she insists on calling herself lesbian. I've been doing some more thinking off and on since I made this post over a week ago (and unfortunately didn't have much time to respond to most people!), and I've become convinced that she's the prototypical example of what internalized biphobia looks like. It sucks because that harms us all. I believe we need to be able to call out people like her just as we need to be able to call out "ex-gay" people like Milo Yiannopoulos.

In other words, I think she's a loon- a fanatic who wouldn't have been given the time of day during saner periods, but of course is the goto PR guru now..

Yup.

[–]JulienMayfair 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Julie Bindel is well known for having "problematic" opinions.