all 14 comments

[–]chazzstrong 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

It should be obvious by now that they have no problem rewriting history, definitions, science, pretty much anything at all to achieve their total takeover. I know we try to skirt politics on this board, as it's solely about moving away from the Trans movement, but it really is all tied up into the progressive liberal identitarian ideology so prevalent across the world, which is essentially modern-day Bolsheviks.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I was going to add that the extent of the rewriting of history on this reminds me of things I've heard that the Soviets did. If you're inconvenient, you get written out of history, even erased from photos. And then there's the social climate where if you say anything against the party line, you may find the next day that you've been fired from your job and are facing arrest.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Unfortunately the TRAs and other Q+++ colonisers will just claim that Rivera et al have been written out by Stalinist revisionists.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Well, they are the ones who raised Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson to the level of Queer Sainthood and have tried to insist that Marsha was a trans woman. But then, I seem to recall reading some interview with Rivera later in life when she said that she was "tired" of the term 'transgender' or something like that. I actually don't think Rivera ever entirely bought into the whole "trans women ARE women" dogma.

What is pretty clear from the older books on gay history is that contemporary gender ideology did not exist 30 years ago. The current dogma is a very recent invention.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

SHe didn't have the language back then!!!

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I really hate this one because it violates one of Foucault's main points about historical analysis: That you can't apply contemporary identity concepts to people who lived before those concepts even existed.

Nowhere does Rivera talk about gender dysphoria, HRT, or a desire to be in a different body.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The difficulty with using the first hand account of this person is clearly that they are not a reliable source but as you state, the part where there is absolutely no concept of self existing as female is pretty clear. Drug addicts do tent to have difficulty remembering how events transpired or how much time is passing but it is certainly interesting how he uses incidental language to describe things. Ie that lesbian hated all men (like me). It shows that there is absolutely zero concept of a "gender identity" going on.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

The thing about memory is that when Rivera found out that people of a scholarly bent were researching a history of Stonewall, he approached gay men he knew would be interviewed and asked them to lie for him and to say he had been there on the first night. Given that, I think that Rivera had a pretty clear idea that he had been on-record telling a story that was now likely to be revealed as false.

[–]PriestTheyCalledHimBisexual 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is really not surprising at all.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

if your older and have older gay books in your library, they are going to be a precious recourse as history gets changed from LG/LGB to LGBTQIA+

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Here's another one, The Lesbian and Gay Studies Reader from 1993. This was a state of the art collection for the time, gathered just before Gay & Lesbian became LGBT and Queer Theory eclipsed a more ethnic studies approach to looking at gay and lesbian communities.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-lesbian-and-gay-studies-reader/287121/item/12607171/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6fafBhC1ARIsAIJjL8n3O9HLzRZgEQitLy_-xTovFnXM7Gsh2Yu3TybShy_sUW6vpyAn4RkaAgEpEALw_wcB#idiq=12607171&edition=3570440

It raises the question: If this anthology was produced by academics, why is it just gay and lesbian? If trans people were "the core" of the LGBT movement, where are they?

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

If trans people were "the core" of the LGBT movement, where are they?

well you know how shy they can be.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know you jest, but my experience was that, for that most part, that was quite literally true in the 1990s. Most trans people simply wanted to pass quietly as a man or a woman.

[–]PriestTheyCalledHimBisexual 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for writing this up. Is Marsha P. Johnson interviewed?

I know multiple bisexual men and women who were at the Stonewall demonstrations and they all said transsexual/transgender people were not there and not involved, and how the vast majority of people there and involved were white and not 'poc'.